Limelight is taking the limelight away

[Afinati]

I saw the use of the word "limelight" in one of the feature videos and was a little taken aback. Then, just now, I saw that Quill18 had the same reaction when he encountered it in the tournament conclusion event text.

"And one team's limelight is being readied" should be rewritten to correct the anachronism.

Also, Quill18 was unfamiliar with the word "geeing." As an American, I too had to look up the definition. Context helped, but it's a bit jarring.

I'd prefer the writing to remain consistently rooted in medievalisms and readable contemporary English. Anachronisms so clearly tied to the 19th and 20th centuries should be avoided unless it's metatextual. People shouldn't go nuclear when they're angry, no lightbulbs should be going off when people have a bright idea, people shouldn't be on the same wavelength, attention shouldn't be measured by bandwidth, nothing should be like riding a bike, and nobody should have to bite the bullet on this one.

 

[mustard11]

And there are so many good examples of personal letters from the period too that I would think it would be not so difficult to restrain the use of modern idioms in the writing. The letter recalling William Marshal to the court of Henry II survives and apparently includes sarcastic references to his previous whining over lack of compensation for his service to the English monarchs. I wish I could find an example of it!

My expectation of the writing is a bit like sitting on Santa's lap and expecting Shakespearean prose (and idioms that either predate or are contemporaneous with Shakespearean English), but as it stands, instead out of his mouth you hear something akin to how a Marvel movie writer might remake Men In Tights.

 

[Wokeg]

Whoops, "limelight" does seem to have slipped the net a tad - we usually try to filter out modern references (at least obvious ones) at review, but if I had to hazard a guess, limelight being a byword for attention rather than a saying or turn of phrase may have made it a bit stealthier than usual. ^^' It's too late to take it out for the release on Thursday, but I can remove it in a later patch. I'll make a note.

Geeing, personally, I think is fine. Just racing terminology. YMMV there, of course.

 

[TripleAgent]

Whoops, "limelight" does seem to have slipped the net a tad - we usually try to filter out modern references (at least obvious one) at review

The tinder portrait event chain would like a word, honestly it takes me out of the game every time it comes up. I understand that rulers looking at portraits of betrothed was likely common back then (I'm most familiar with Anne of Cleves in that respect, although I'm sure it was common long before that). But the way it's written sounds like an anachronistic joke that didn't land the first time and continues not to land every time I get it.

 

[mustard11]

I personally don't have a problem with proto Tinder.

I think this thread is more so about vocabulary anachronisms in the written copy of the game's events.

 

[WestuHal]

The tinder portrait event chain would like a word, honestly it takes me out of the game every time it comes up. I understand that rulers looking at portraits of betrothed was likely common back then (I'm most familiar with Anne of Cleves in that respect, although I'm sure it was common long before that). But the way it's written sounds like an anachronistic joke that didn't land the first time and continues not to land every time I get it.

I’m wondering whether rulers did in fact look at portraits of potential matches during the period the game takes place in - if you look at depictions of rulers (or any people) from the Medieval age, they hardly appear to be the most sophisticated/realistic portraits, at least before the fifteenth century…

 

[Cyhort]

I personally don't have a problem with proto Tinder.

I think this thread is more so about vocabulary anachronisms in the written copy of the game's events.

I agree. I view proto Tinder the same way I view the almost-Nike logo and the modern dancing bits in a Knights Tale. Sure it's not historically accurate, but it fits with the tone of the rest of the movie/game and it isn't nearly as egregious as characters using modern slang and idioms or someone just finding a gun laying around somewhere. Fictional historical analogues of modern things have more leeway with me than what OP mentioned.

 

[mustard11]

Patiently waiting for the "Copy Editor - Contract" listing to show up here

 

[Gnomey154]

I’m wondering whether rulers did in fact look at portraits of potential matches during the period the game takes place in - if you look at depictions of rulers (or any people) from the Medieval age, they hardly appear to be the most sophisticated/realistic portraits, at least before the fifteenth century…

Hm, let's see... your potential spouse has two eyes, hair, a kind of vacant smile and doesn't really know what to do with her hands. That's all you need to know about looks, right?

 

[pengoyo]

I personally don't have a problem with proto Tinder.

I think this thread is more so about vocabulary anachronisms in the written copy of the game's events.

I also have no problem with proto Tinder.

But, IIRC one of it's events reference being over 6 feet tall. That might be anachronistic vocabulary as I'm not sure medieval people measured their hieght the way we do (and their units wouldn't match the modern version either way). So it might be worth rewording.

Edit: I don't recall seeing any medieval text use units like feet to describe people's hieght. Refering to such exact units in regards to describing people seems like a more modern thing.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I also have no problem with proto Tinder.

But, IIRC one of it's events reference being over 6 feet tall. That might be anachronistic vocabulary as I'm not sure medieval people measured their hieght the way we do (and their units wouldn't match the modern version either way). So it might be worth rewording.

That's probably to give players an idea of the height of the character.

The foot is a complicated measure though, with it varying quite a bit country to country - but how would you reword it in a way that gives an idea of the height of the opponent but doesn't reference any (modern) units?

 

[pengoyo]

That's probably to give players an idea of the height of the character.

The foot is a complicated measure though, with it varying quite a bit country to country - but how would you reword it in a way that gives an idea of the height of the opponent but doesn't reference any (modern) units?

So I found the line in the code so I could have a better idea of what the context is:

At the very end, [potential_date.GetSheHe] urges me to write back soon, "but only if you exceed a height of six feet."

It's from the end of the description of a potential date in the proto tinder event chain. It's one of several line that can be randomly picked if the potential date is a female and the player character is a male (it's just a flavour line as there is no follow up on it in the code). So all it seems to be is a reference to some women putting a preference for taller men in their profiles.

So that same idea could be gotten across by something like "but only if you are tall of stature." Or some other reference to being tall that doesn't rely on units.



Though I want to make clear I don't really have a problem with anachronistic English, either the six feet or limelight, in the game (but also am fine with the wording being changed if it make people happy). I brought it up because someone said the proto tinder event doesn't have anachronistic language and so wasn't relevant to this thread. And so I was just pointing out that it could be relevant to this thread.


Edit: Also as most of the world doesn't use the imperial system, it isn't necessarily a good way of giving the player an idea of the height involved.

 

[Wokeg]

But, IIRC one of it's events reference being over 6 feet tall. That might be anachronistic vocabulary as I'm not sure medieval people measured their hieght the way we do (and their units wouldn't match the modern version either way). So it might be worth rewording.

That's probably to give players an idea of the height of the character.

Yeah, we settled on allowing "feet" as a compromise for height descriptors around release/early FP1 - we tried some events with period-accurate height measurements and it was just meaningless when read. If we ever do like... historical concept tooltips or similar, mouse over a thing to get a lil definition/explanation like we do with game concepts, then we might revert to using historical measurements for at least future events, but otherwise we needed to use "feet" or "metres" and metres set off the anachronism bells much more clearly.

So that same idea could be gotten across by something like "but only if you are tall of stature." Or some other reference to being tall that doesn't rely on units.

Honestly, good compromise. I'll have a ruminate on whether to change that one or leave it, thank you for the suggestion either way.

Edit: Also as most of the world doesn't use the imperial system, it isn't necessarily a good way of giving the player an idea of the height involved.

Mmm, the official localisation we release in is American English rather than any of the Commonwealth dialects, so I'm afraid it gets a pass - that rule does get bent the other way every now and then for immersion or technical reasons (e.g., geeing), when an American term looks or read just a little too wrong or when non-preferred words for American English are helpful for verisimilitude, but I don't think we'd stretch to removing feet because it's non-standard everywhere else except America, Liberia, and Myanmar. :shrugs: I don't particularly agree with the localisation policy, but it was set long, long ago at the corporate level and there's nothing I can do to change that.

 

[grommile]

That might be anachronistic vocabulary as I'm not sure medieval people measured their hieght the way we do (and their units wouldn't match the modern version either way)

A unit with a name that translates as "foot", with a length within 16% of the modern English foot, is a very common feature of customary systems of units, because, well.

It's roughly the length of a grown man's foot.

I speak British English, and if I see the word "metre" slip out of the mouth of a character speaking before 1791, it had better be in a discussion of the rhythmic structure of poetry.

 

[pengoyo]

Yeah, we settled on allowing "feet" as a compromise for height descriptors around release/early FP1 - we tried some events with period-accurate height measurements and it was just meaningless when read. If we ever do like... historical concept tooltips or similar, mouse over a thing to get a lil definition/explanation like we do with game concepts, then we might revert to using historical measurements for at least future events, but otherwise we needed to use "feet" or "metres" and metres set off the anachronism bells much more clearly.

Honestly a tool tip for learning medieval terminology sound great! And yeah while I prefer metres to feet, I can understand why feet is preferred in CK3 from an anachronism point of view.

Honestly, good compromise. I'll have a ruminate on whether to change that one or leave it, thank you for the suggestion either way.

No worries

Mmm, the official localisation we release in is American English rather than any of the Commonwealth dialects, so I'm afraid it gets a pass - that rule does get bent the other way every now and then for immersion or technical reasons (e.g., geeing), when an American term looks or read just a little too wrong or when non-preferred words for American English are helpful for verisimilitude, but I don't think we'd stretch to removing feet because it's non-standard everywhere else except America, Liberia, and Myanmar. :shrugs: I don't particularly agree with the localisation policy, but it was set long, long ago at the corporate level and there's nothing I can do to change that.

Yeah, I am definitely aware that American English is the standard for the game, as I try to make my mods as seamless with the Vanilla CK3 experience as I can. And thus need to control my urge to put U's in everything Though as a Canadian I'm pretty use to working with a different standard of English than my own, so I'm fine with the standard being American English.

But I was curious; and knowing a little bit of French, German, and Spanish; I looked up their translation and all but Spanish uses feet (Spanish uses 1.8 metres). So the use of feet does spill over into other languages (or require translations using different units to have to decide if they'll use a hard or soft conversion). So it is more far reaching than just the standard being American English.

That all said, I do agree with your reasoning that feet makes the most sense as the unit of measurement for CK3. But it might be best to avoid using it when not needed.

A unit with a name that translates as "foot", with a length within 16% of the modern English foot, is a very common feature of customary systems of units, because, well.

It's roughly the length of a grown man's foot.

I speak British English, and if I see the word "metre" slip out of the mouth of a character speaking before 1791, it had better be in a discussion of the rhythmic structure of poetry.

I more meant referencing a person's height using units of measurement, like feet, might be anachronistic. Not that medieval version of the units didn't exist.

While pretty common in modern literature, I don't recall ever seeing it in any medieval text I've read. Though it has been some years since I studied medieval text, so I might have just forgotten.

 

[grommile]

I more meant referencing a person's height using units of measurement, like feet, might be anachronistic. Not that medieval version of the units didn't exist.

Fair point.

(And now I'm reminded of Dante Alighieri using "tall Frieslanders" as a unit of height )