light and heavy tanks

[HerrWeltkrieg]

So after watching WWW I noticed that there are very few models of above mentioned types of tanks. Medium tanks have decentish line, but what about light and heavy tanks? I know that IRL they were deemed obsolete by main battle tank etc etc, but HOI should provide us with feasible alternatives. I mean what if scenarios are what gives us replayability.

There are huge gaps in research trees, which prohibit us from successfully using these two options.

 

[Denkt]

All 3 main types of tanks have 3 techs

• Light tank 1934/1936/1941
• Medium tank 1939/1941/1943
• Heavy tank 1934/1941/1943

To get the 1945 tank you need to research both 1943 heavy and medium tank.

• Light tank have the best mobility (both fast and suffers little attrition) but they lack firepower.
• Heavy tank have very good combat ability but poor mobility.
• Super Heavy tank is a fortress buster specialist.

 

[Devout]

Also take into account the ability to customize tank configuration and the ability to research 1 year in advance. So it is very plausible to rush a heavy tank in 1940 with boosted stats. Your production may not support this until 1941, but that seems pretty reasonable. There is also the resource aspect to the equation (tungston for medium tanks and chromium+tungston for heavy tanks). I can see countries like Italy sticking with light tanks due to resource shortages.

 

[alp177]

I think also the same you have variant options which myself will use this opinion a lot rather than using a all new tank. Like US and USSR (M4 and T34). So there is no need to have lots of different types of tank.

 

[HerrWeltkrieg]

What I am trying to say is that this way there will be very limited way how to successfully replay the game with certain nations. I fear that I will be railroaded toward some decisions. Also I think the gap between available heavy tanks and next research is too big.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

I know that IRL they were deemed obsolete by main battle tank etc etc, but HOI should provide us with feasible alternatives.

That was ultimately after the game's timeframe. See AMX-13, Walker Bulldog, PT-76, T-10, M103 and Conqueror for '50s production examples. It's not until around '60 onwards that powerful HEAT munitions and infantry fighting vehicles like BMP-1 (which essentially combine light tank and APC) mostly kill off these specialists.

IMO, past the initial stage where light tanks can function as mainline they should be reimagined as powerful recon vehicles. For example the '41 LT tech could enable armored recon support company which would function like more powerful version of standard recon unit and give LTs new lease of life in support role. Ability to cancel out recon bonuses of less well armed recon units would be particularly cool.

Heavy tanks are more obvious, as mediums become more powerful you should be able to develop increasingly powerful heavies to keep ahead of them. This should not change within game's timeframe. I'd also trashbin the super heavy tank entirely, it's a novelty and not historically important.

 

[aruon]

why do the heavy tanks have such a long period between heavy 1 and 2? almost all heavy tanks that actually saw continual action and decent numbers in WWII started designs or service after 1936 or 1937. matilda II, tiger 1 (originally panzer VI), char B1, the entire roster of heavies the soviets mercilessly trolled the finns and axis with (the exception being the T-35... from 1935)

Y U NO HISTURI RITE PAIRUHDUCKS!?

 

[HerrWeltkrieg]

Yeah I do think that one more level for lights and heavies should be introduced, for heavies in the gap before 41 and for lights after 41.

 

[jamesd]

Broadly speaking, tank development should have one each light, medium and heavy model for each period. The periods should be WW1, 1920's, pre-war 1930's, early war, late war & semi-modern/super heavy. In my opinion the existing tech tree is only based around German designed tanks ignoring areas where other nations produced tanks that were not matched by the Germans - most glaringly the earlier heavy tanks.

For example, for the Germans the Pz I, Leichttraktor and Grosstraktor should be the 1920's techs, the PzII, PzIII & an experimental heavy the pre-war models, the Pz38t, Pz IV & Tiger I the early war models, the Leopard, Panther & Tiger II the late war models and the E-25, E-50 & E-100 the semi-modern models.

 

[Diwtop]

Can somebody explain me how armor work ingame?

Is there any kind of piercing? Hardattack vs armor?

 

[aruon]

Can somebody explain me how armor work ingame?

Is there any kind of piercing? Hardattack vs armor?

the main difference is is man vs machine: soft attack (small arms) and hard attack (ordinance) vs soft defense (body armor and the like) and hard defense (actual armor). the more attack you have against the corresponding defense, the more damage you do, with hard defense taking precedence over soft defense. like soldiers shooting at a tank with small arms and grenades while the tank shoots back with a .30 caliber MG and a 76mm cannon.

so yeah pretty much. tank is stronk, soldier is meatbag.

 

[panzerzombie]

Can somebody explain me how armor work ingame?

Is there any kind of piercing? Hardattack vs armor?

Yes but not in detail: there are armor values and piercing values for each type of tank ( customizable with variants ), infantry has very low AT values. In combat as it seems a divison had a text like " can be pierced by 1 of 2 of the opposing enemies" resulting in unknown bonus values...

 

[aruon]

so there is piercing? i figured TDs just had higher hard attack,

 

[panzerzombie]

so there is piercing? i figured TDs just had higher hard attack,

Yes both, soft/hard attack aimed vs. hardness percentage of target - if I understood it correctly (may be totally wrong) - e.g. target is panzerdivision with 30% softness and 70% hardness for each attack ( soft attack or hard attack) a dice is rolled and lands either in the soft or hard percentage, if it fits ( soft to soft / hard to hard) it may do damage ( but can be avoided with "save" rolls).

So the hard/soft attack value is the number of attacks for which the die is rolled and penetration may give modifiers of some kind ( the exact effect is unknown to me).

 

[Alex_brunius]

Yeah I do think that one more level for lights and heavies should be introduced, for heavies in the gap before 41 and for lights after 41.

Were there alot of new light tank models developed after 1941 when the experience from combat on both the west and east fronts had showed that they couldn't really survive combat vs Medium tanks and AT?

Were there alot of heavy tanks designed between 1934 and 41? Germany for example had no real heavy tank before the Tiger ( designed in 41 as a result of the experience on the east front that heavier armor and bigger guns were needed ). USAs first serious heavy tank design (M6) surfaced in 1942. The British Churchill heavy tank entered service in 1941...

Soviet was the only major to develop a working heavy tank between 36 and 1941 (KV-1 in 39 ), and it was not that exceptional, it had the same gun as their medium tanks for example. So maybe Soviet could get some bonus or NF allowing them to research their first heavy tank a bit earlier in HoI4?

 

[jamesd]

Were there alot of new light tank models developed after 1941 when the experience from combat on both the west and east fronts had showed that they couldn't really survive combat vs Medium tanks and AT?

Were there alot of heavy tanks designed between 1934 and 41? Germany for example had no real heavy tank before the Tiger ( designed in 41 as a result of the experience on the east front that heavier armor and bigger guns were needed ). USAs first serious heavy tank design (M6) surfaced in 1942. The British Churchill heavy tank entered service in 1941...

Soviet was the only major to develop a working heavy tank between 36 and 1941 (KV-1 in 39 ), and it was not that exceptional, it had the same gun as their medium tanks for example. So maybe Soviet could get some bonus or NF allowing them to research their first heavy tank a bit earlier in HoI4?

The Matilda & Valentine tanks were heavy tanks in that they posed very large problems for the standard AT guns up to the end of 1941. While Germany did not put a heavy tank into production until the Tiger, they had multiple research projects prior to that such as the Durchbruchwagen, VK3001 & VK3601. A German player may wish to produce an intermediate heavy tank that's a step up from the Grosstracktor of 1928. You're right that there weren't that many new light tank designs put into service after 1941, but there were again a number of designs that could have been. There were the German VK1602 Leopard with a couple of different armaments proposed and the later E-25. The US developed the T7 light tank, before moving onto the Chaffee and development of its T37 replacement (eventually the Walker Bulldog) started in 1947 which is within the timeframe of the game. Development of the French AMX13 started in 1946, also in the timeframe covered by the game.

 

[mursolini]

why do the heavy tanks have such a long period between heavy 1 and 2? almost all heavy tanks that actually saw continual action and decent numbers in WWII started designs or service after 1936 or 1937. matilda II, tiger 1 (originally panzer VI), char B1, the entire roster of heavies the soviets mercilessly trolled the finns and axis with (the exception being the T-35... from 1935)

Y U NO HISTURI RITE PAIRUHDUCKS!?

Because that is how it was.

Char B1 is actually the only(?) heavy developed in 1920s, that saw action in WW1.

Soviet "entire roster" boils down to T-35, KV-1 + variants, and IS + variants. USA didn`t have heavies before 1948 or so, UK had Matilda and Churchill.

P.S. T-35 was actually launched into production in 1932.

 

[Zaku]

The Matilda & Valentine tanks were heavy tanks in that they posed very large problems for the standard AT guns up to the end of 1941.

Well that depends on the definition of the "heavy tank". The valentine was 17 tonnes and the matilda was 11t IIRC(Matilda II was 25t.). The british called them "infantry tanks", but I think the game should include them as a medium tank. You can make them slow and up armored with the variant system. Heavy tanks should be more like 40+ tonnes imo. (except the 1934 model)

 

[mursolini]

Well that depends on the definition of the "heavy tank". The valentine was 17 tonnes and the matilda was 11t IIRC(Matilda II was 25t.). The british called them "infantry tanks", but I think the game should include them as a medium tank. You can make them slow and up armored with the variant system. Heavy tanks should be more like 40+ tonnes imo. (except the 1934 model)

Valentine was more of a tureted TD as 2 powder had no HE shells.

 

[dave_r_gilbert]

If the definition of a heavy tank is, as stated earlier

• Heavy tank have very good combat ability but poor mobility.

then the Matilda II is absolutely a heavy.
Valentine could be a variant on Medium. It was around at the same time as the Crusader.
The Crusader could be looked at as a fast, lightly armoured, medium, and the valentine as a slow, heavily armoured medium.
But the Matilda was off the scale on armour for 39 and 40, and could barely manage walking speed.
It was also impervious to all tank guns until 42, and all AT guns except the 88.

Mid war the British had the Tetrarch and Harry Hopkins light tanks.
Not many of them were made, but they were options.

Throughout the war the Japanese made light tanks, and not much else.

The americans had designs for heavy tanks (M6, M14) , but due to internal army politics and decisions to build huge numbers of mediums rather than smaller numbers of heavies they didn't reach the troops.
But they should be available as options.

The french had the Char B1 in 1940, and plans for both light and heavy tanks for later years.

So I think the tech tree should have options for light, medium, and heavies at all points.
Which one or ones to build should be left to the players.
The production system will then make the choice difficult - as in real life.
America chose lots of mediums, and didn't build the heavies.
Japan chose as many lights as they could manage on restricted resources.
Germany chose smaller numbers of both mediums and heavies.
UK made the same choice, and probably shouldn't have done.
Russia chose lots of mediums, and some heavies as well, and paid for that by not building other stuff.