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Atreides

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Interested in seeing how the play experience would be - I modified my Materialist race with the Life Seeded civic to see how it played through. It is only 1 game, but I did play all the way through the crisis - here are my observations.

1 - A starting level 25 Gaia world is OK, but not great. Ecumenopolis get a +50% growth bonus for some reason, but your super special Gaia home world does not. Without some sort of growth bonus it will take a very long time to actually use all of those districts. I bee lined for Robots, built an assembly plant immediately, piled on growth modifiers and it still took over 200 years to fill up the planet.

Recommendation - Gaia planets should receive the same +50 growth bonus as Ecumenopolis. This will improve the value of the ascension perk that creates them, as well as making Life Seeded a little more useful as a permanent civic choice.

2 - Habitability is not that important. So in order to actually fight the crisis I knew I was going to need a real empire with normal empire mineral/alloy production to field some 100k doomstacks. To that end, I colonized every planet within my borders, built robots assemblies on them and just planned on running a consumer economy to deal with the penalties. It was significantly easier than I expected. I did run a consumer based trade network the entire game. My first colony was transformed into an industrial world running 5 consumer goods factories. I did build a handful of additional CG factories as needed, but about the same as I would build for my other empires. That was enough to deal with my entire population having a *ZERO* habitability on every one of my colonies. The habitability techs did eventually get my habitability to 20, but really what should have been a particularly challenging experience was not difficult to deal with, at all.

Recommendation - Habitability should effect both growth rate, and pop happiness. The growth rate I would scale from -50 to +50 with Habitability 50 being 0 (so +50 growth at 100% habitability. -50 growth at 0).
For happiness, I would create two scales. A bonus that scales from 80-100, and a penalty that scales from 80-0. Pops (should) expect a habitability of 80, so that is the zero point. Every 5 points above would be +2.5% happiness, so +10% happiness at 100. Likewise, every 5 points below 80 would result in -2.5% happiness, so -40% happiness at 0 habitability. That would then create the low stability revolt style gameplay that should occur when the vast majority of your empire is effectively living on tomb worlds.


This would really encourage you to grow your empire on 'your' planets, and would make all of the habitability modifiers much more impactful. I think I might do a thread just on Habitability.

3 - the special terrain features seem good, but are mostly useless. So the extra motes, crystals and gases are meant to be an extra tool for the LS empire to work with. In order to access though, you need to unlock the corresponding technology and (much more importantly) spend a building slot to access them. In order to utilize those features, you will be unable to buy other buildings that you would like to have in those building slots. (Research institute, Galactic Market, Energy Nexus, Ministry of Production, Psi Corp, Noble Estate etc.)

From a pure economic standpoint - the rare resource buildings are just a bad choice - a trap as it were. A single worker generating 2 motes is very efficient production for that 1 worker - that one pop is generating ~30 energy worth of value. From an empire perspective however, that building is OK at best.
If that building slot was instead used for a Level 2 alloy plant, I would have 5 pops generating 15 alloys. Only those 5 pops generate more than 15 alloys because I have a Ministry of production that gives +15%, so it is 17.25 alloys (3.45 alloy per pop). Stability bonuses and general production bonuses should apply to both alloy and mote production, so that is why I am only using the Ministry for this comparison. (for exact numbers, my homeworld had 16 metallurgists producing 81 alloys, so a bit more than 5 alloy per pop). So an alloy sells for around 12 energy. In order to purchase 2 motes, I should spend around 25-30 energy on the market. So my 1 mote worker is worth about 30 energy. My alloy worker is worth around 41. The mote building can only employ 1 worker, the alloy factory can at top tier employ 8 (was 10). So building an alloy factory is simply worth more than any of the special resource buildings, every time.

Recommendation - ideally allow the special resources to just be harvested without spending building slots to do so. At that point the special bonus of the LS home world is exactly that - a special bonus. Alternatively, create a single building that harvests all 3 special resources simultaneously.
Alternatively, scale the buildings so there are 3 levels of them, and increase the base production from 2 motes per worker to 3. At 3 motes, the building at least gets close to competing with an alloy factory, and will overtake it in some circumstances.
Refineries being terrible is probably also worth its own thread.

TLDR
Stellaris game play improves when there are relevant asymmetrical starting options.
Life Seeded should be one of those, it currently is not.
 

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I'm not really sure how I feel about habitability affecting growth. The effect it has on your economy is pretty severe already, in my opinion, it's just that growth is such an important part of the game now that everyone is able to look past that, it seems. In any case, +50% is a huge bonus - even if it all comes from habitability, which I think is what you are suggesting and meaning all starting worlds will get the same bonus, you're already looking at habitiability traits being strictly better than growth ones, because they provide the same bonus and more for the same cost. Also, you have to consider multi-species empires. Planets will, every now and then, want to grow a low habitability pop and it might be frustrating to have such large disparities in growth when that happens.

I think you make a good point about the special features; I hadn't thought about it, but if you have to build a bunch of buildings that only offer one job each, it conflicts with the idea of a planet that is supposed to cater to a massive population, which seems like the whole point of having a 25 size homeworld in the first place.
 

Atreides

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I thought habitability was going to have a severe effect on my economy, but everything still hummed along just fine. I did have to buy more civilian industry then 'normal', but not a gratuitous amount. The effect was at maximum - 0% habitability on every planet in my empire but my homeworld.

Give it a try. Take Lifeseeded, get robots and just colonize everywhere. You will be surprised (and perhaps disappointed) at how easy it is to make work.
 

Surimi

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I don't really agree. Life seeded is very powerful in 2.2, but also pretty flavourful and interesting.

All worlds take a long time to "max out" population in 2.2. That's just a basic feature of the new system. Ecumenopoli get a bonus to pop growth because they can house a massive population. They also don't get the productivity bonus of a gaia world.

Habitability is very important, because it drags down your economic efficiency. Losing consumer goods might seem trivial, but consumer goods power a lot of things in 2.2, in particular, research and unity jobs consume consumer goods and also compete for building slots with consumer goods factories. You can get around it to a degree by using robots or slaves, but you're still paying the cost.

That said, habitability isn't really a burden for empires which don't run inward perfection or aren't fanatic xenophobe, because you can just get migration treaties and use those to populate other planets. 2.2 makes multi-species empires much easier to create and more viable.

Like it or not, rare resources are kind of integral to a late game economy. Yes, they take up precious building slots, but a single tier 3 research lab gives as many jobs as four tier 1 research labs, and requires one gas mine/plant to sustain it.

The market is dynamic, which means that as you buy things from the market you will drive up the prices, and as you sell things you will lower the prices. Sure, importing resources will be fine in small quantiites, but once you're trying to run your entire late game economy on imports, it's going to become inefficient very fast.

Special resource buildings employing a single worker is not actually a bad thing, it just may be an unnecessary saving on a size 25 planet which is inevitably going to max out the building cap no matter what you do. Still, unless you are covering your gaia world with cities (why?) you're probably not going to struggle to provide enough jobs.

That said, I do kind of agree with point 2. It shouldn't really be possible to colonize low-habitability worlds, and it leads to a situation where it's worth colonizing them to use them as population farms while constantly resettling everyone out, which is gamey and weird.
 
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Incompetent

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Running a consumer goods trade policy sounds like a good idea for any sort of empire until you get the tech to produce CGs in a highly efficient way (and/or someone floods the galactic market in CGs). Early on, it's easy to create more raw materials jobs whereas slots for specialist jobs are in short supply, so the fewer CG factories you can run, the better. Also, if you get a lot of your CGs from trade, it makes the militarized economy viable for a boost in alloy production (your CG factories suffer, but your CG income from trade is unaffected).

If you're running consumer goods trade policy *and* having to build a bunch of CG factories though, it does sound like your economy is being significantly burdened relative to where it could be.
 

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In one of my recent games I had my pops self modify to tombworld preference from Gia world. I bio-ascended and added fertile then the self modified pops added rapid breeders. I also had a strong trait before bioascention that got modded out for the bioascended traits. Just wanted to point out a potential upside for putting pops on that tomb world.

In another game a couple of NPC empires had lifeseeded, the planetary features and districts were of lifeseeded quality but the planet itself was of a different biome. The NPC empires didn't fare too well with 0% habitability on their starting homeworld.
 

bitmapmedivh

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Ecumenopoli get a bonus to pop growth because they can house a massive population. They also don't get the productivity bonus of a gaia world.
Is that correct though? If I'm reading the planet_classes files right, Ecumenopoli get +20% production bonus, while Gaia worlds gain a +10% bonus (and +10% happines bonus).
 

Atreides

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Ecumenopolis are significantly better than the starting Gaia world. On one hand that makes sense since you are spending an AP to acquire the world, and have to pay for it and all of that. However the LS world (supposedly) actually comes with a cost of 0 habitability on normal planets - that cost is just not that difficult to offset.

My preference for LS would be that the homeworld is Ecumenopolis level of amazing, but trying to live anywhere else is hell on earth. That is not the current implementation. The Gaia world is good but not great and 0 habitability living is entirely manageable.
 
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MK1980

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yeah seems a bit strange now. LS used to be a rather distinct civic before 2.2 but now that you can colonize at 0% hab, you basically pay a permanent civic slot for a slightly larger (mostly irrelevant for the crucial first 100 years or so, really) homeworld and some bonus resources and you get that (relatively) small penalty of paying higher upkeep with your 0 hab pops on other worlds.

it used to be a somewhat challenging and distinct start option. it never really felt like a a bonus - more like a handicap start really.

but now it's a rather bland tradeoff with low impact both ways since both the bonus and the penalty don't really change the way you play. not in a significant way at least.
 

Sapa Inca

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In another game a couple of NPC empires had lifeseeded, the planetary features and districts were of lifeseeded quality but the planet itself was of a different biome.
Random AI empires generated with life seeded civic have a bug in current version, they spawn with gaia habitability in a 25 size world but the planet is not Gaia type.