Liege revoking title from you kills the title owner?

[sorrowofwind]

Hi, I found that when liege ask to revoke your land title, if you grant the land title to your vassal, once you accept the revoking the (ex)vassal will die (usually) on the first day. If you transfer the land vassalage to other count/duke then accept the king's proposal, the land title owner will still die but the count/duke's relationship with the king will not change while the liege still revokes the land he asks for.

I thought war will end inconclusively if the land title owner switches side, but this doesn't seem to affect diplomatic situations?

 

[Korbah]

Hi, I found that when liege ask to revoke your land title, if you grant the land title to your vassal, once you accept the revoking the (ex)vassal will die (usually) on the first day. If you transfer the land vassalage to other count/duke then accept the king's proposal, the land title owner will still die but the count/duke's relationship with the king will not change while the liege still revokes the land he asks for.

I thought war will end inconclusively if the land title owner switches side, but this doesn't seem to affect diplomatic situations?

Not sure about the dying, but, what you're trying to do sounds kind of gamey and I'm guessing it's WAD to prevent that gameyness.

 

[sorrowofwind]

Well, technically if I want to be "gamey" I'll just drag the revoke title screen away to other side... What I was trying to achieve is to cause a conflict (or war) between other dukes and the liege not by faction but diplomacy.

Also, lieges don't seem to revoke land title with other -60 relationship dukes while he keeps asking me (+3 opinion) for more land. If I gave the king one title, he'll ask for more within 1 week~1 month....

 

[Daelix]

Well, technically if I want to be "gamey" I'll just drag the revoke title screen away to other side... What I was trying to achieve is to cause a conflict (or war) between other dukes and the liege not by faction but diplomacy.

Also, lieges don't seem to revoke land title with other -60 relationship dukes while he keeps asking me (+3 opinion) for more land. If I gave the king one title, he'll ask for more within 1 week~1 month....

Say no. Kill him. Then make yourself a mojito and kick it.

 

[sorrowofwind]

If I could, I've only like 3 land title (just got independent from my previous 6 lieges who kept revoking land from me) and the king has like 40s.

Just loading the game choosing as the king and found he can imprison like 8 other land title holders without incurring tyranny but he chose to revoke land from me instead... I guess I'll take a break for now.

 

[Chevaresqye]

Not sure about the dying, but, what you're trying to do sounds kind of gamey and I'm guessing it's WAD to prevent that gameyness.

I found nothing gamey here. The liege tries to revoke your title, you give your title to another person, "Sorry my liege, I don't have what you want anymore". It totally makes sense to me. I hope PI could allow this tactic in future patch.

 

[Talq]

No, its gamey and not really realistic.

You just up and give a title to somebody else with the kings demand to give it to him sitting in front of you? The game shouldn't regard the demand as inconclusive - it should either simply ignore your transfer (the recipient would find out fairly rapidly about the kings position if it happened irl and probably won't appreciate the effort to create trouble) or not permit you transferring once the kings demand is on the table.

Instantly killing the recipient of the tainted title is however a bit much.

 

[Daelix]

No, its gamey and not really realistic.

You just up and give a title to somebody else with the kings demand to give it to him sitting in front of you? The game shouldn't regard the demand as inconclusive - it should either simply ignore your transfer (the recipient would find out fairly rapidly about the kings position if it happened irl and probably won't appreciate the effort to create trouble) or not permit you transferring once the kings demand is on the table.

Instantly killing the recipient of the tainted title is however a bit much.

Everyone's missing the point: it's a fabulous new gamey way to assassinate someone.

 

[sorrowofwind]

This kind of events had happened in Japan feudal era I think, such as giving up own land (title) for protection with their heirs becoming new land holders' vassals (or hostages) when someone claims on their land/wages war/etc. (relationships between Shugo, Shugodai, Daiymo could be intricate) Don't know if similar events were in Europe history though.

 

[Daelix]

This kind of events had happened in Japan feudal era I think, such as giving up own land (title) for protection with their heirs becoming new land holders' vassals (or hostages) when someone claims on their land/wages war/etc. (relationships between Shugo, Shugodai, Daiymo could be intricate) Don't know if similar events were in Europe history though.

I wouldn't say the European way was less intricate, but vastly different. On the surface, things were often supposed to be simple and matter-of-fact, but that's what Plots are for, isn't it? To quote from MacBeth: "There's daggers in men's smiles." The Japanese system didn't lack for treachery, but part of the reason for the comparative intricacy of their feudalism was because of the importance of honor and shame in their culture. Because so many of the nasty things Europeans did a Japanese would never consider because of the loss of their honor (remember that dishonored samurai would ritually disembowel themselves to die with honor), over time many customs formed that allowed them to get around their duties or subvert authority indirectly without dishonoring oneself.

Entirely different, and yet at once entirely the same. But since revoke-spamming, teleporting around to assignments, retinues, and Aztec invasions aren't exactly historically accurate, what's to say a European lord couldn't think of subversive Japanese diplomatic tactics on his own?

 

[Zireael]

Do I understand from the OP that giving a title the king demands kills the vassal you gave the title to? Weird...

 

[sorrowofwind]

Do I understand from the OP that giving a title the king demands kills the vassal you gave the title to? Weird...

Yes, that's correct. Sending a vassal who held the land title to the king by this method (kind like transfer vassalage) kills the land title owner.

///

Japanese samurais didn't necessarily have honor and could still get praised, like Takeda Shingen who had adultery with his niece, executed his own son because Shingen (not his son) broke the triple alliance with Imagawa & Hojo after Yoshitmoto died. (not WWII ones XD), banish his father, etc.

Shinsengumi used to follow the samurai code and put extreme harsh penalty on shame which made them commit seppuku / beheading more frequent than real samurais during that time, yet none of them were real samurais nor received similar treatments (except Kondo Isami who was raised to nearly Hatamoto's position, most others were simply Gokenin level) from their lord due to their (peasantry) background, it was more like a faith / cult they followed.

But yeah, personally I don't think reluctantly transfer a new appointed vassal to your lord under pressure / other lords for support is gamey, more like sending a hostage with a castle just like the Japanese feudal lords. Even the famous Tokugawa was sent to Imagawa by his father as a hostage when Oda encouraged Tokugawa's uncle (by lending him troops iirc) to revolt in Mikawa.