Liberation wars need to be buffed and deepened

[TrotBot]

A liberation war, for a fanatic egalitarian looking not to annex but to create future federation members out of slavers and purgers, is a huge waste. It takes the exact same effort as annexing every single planet, troops on the ground everywhere, but you get none of the benefits. Not only that, but the enemy will never agree unless you do basically exactly the same thing as if you were annexing them entirely. Only thing you save on is influence costs.

A few things could help, this is just a small suggestion. the mechanic needs a lot more than this to be fleshed out, but some of that other stuff spills over into political factions reworks etc... so I'll try to keep the other suggestions to other threads in future when I've thought them out.

1. Liberation wars should impact stability based on who they're liberating. Slaves who are being liberated should generate their own armies to join the liberators. Same for anyone being purged or given lower living standards lower than the main species.
2. Stability hits should snowball. As worlds fall, the ones near them should be more likely to revolt DURING the war, and join the liberators.
3. Eventually it should become far less costly to simply accede to liberation than continue, it shouldn't require 100% occupation to make this happen every time.
4. A new society should only be created if the liberator explicitly sets out to create one. I would rather use stability as a modifier that sometimes allows even the unoccupied planets get liberated and the whole society to change ideology. A different society makes sense sometimes, if there's a stable core and an unstable periphery for example. But if I can destabilize all the planets then I shouldn't have to occupy them all for the war to tip the society over without splitting it into two countries with future civil war lines.
5. We need espionage operations before and during liberation wars which help buff them by finding sympathasizers to form even more armies on the planet during the war and further consolidate unhappy pops into instability.

 

[GOLANX]

A liberation war, for a fanatic egalitarian looking not to annex but to create future federation members out of slavers and purgers, is a huge waste. It takes the exact same effort as annexing every single planet, troops on the ground everywhere, but you get none of the benefits. Not only that, but the enemy will never agree unless you do basically exactly the same thing as if you were annexing them entirely. Only thing you save on is influence costs.

A few things could help, this is just a small suggestion. the mechanic needs a lot more than this to be fleshed out, but some of that other stuff spills over into political factions reworks etc... so I'll try to keep the other suggestions to other threads in future when I've thought them out.

1. Liberation wars should impact stability based on who they're liberating. Slaves who are being liberated should generate their own armies to join the liberators. Same for anyone being purged or given lower living standards lower than the main species.
2. Stability hits should snowball. As worlds fall, the ones near them should be more likely to revolt DURING the war, and join the liberators.
3. Eventually it should become far less costly to simply accede to liberation than continue, it shouldn't require 100% occupation to make this happen every time.
4. A new society should only be created if the liberator explicitly sets out to create one. I would rather use stability as a modifier that sometimes allows even the unoccupied planets get liberated and the whole society to change ideology. A different society makes sense sometimes, if there's a stable core and an unstable periphery for example. But if I can destabilize all the planets then I shouldn't have to occupy them all for the war to tip the society over without splitting it into two countries with future civil war lines.
5. We need espionage operations before and during liberation wars which help buff them by finding sympathasizers to form even more armies on the planet during the war and further consolidate unhappy pops into instability.

What if your liberating egalitarians? This rework seems very specific for egalitarians and hurts Authoritarians and Xenophobes more than any other ethic.

Part of the problem is the game calls liberation and impose ideology the same thing even though they mean different things. They should split those 2 CBs liberation Wars of Egalitarian/Xenophile empires that are upset about slavery, or any empire who's founder species are being envslaved. Ideology wars more explicitly are about changing another empire's beliefs and may be favored by Spiritualist to convert the nonbelievers.

Keep in mind the current wars do cost the empire its leadership, sure maybe you can destabilize North Korea, don't expect Kim Jong Un to surrender just because you promised not to add North Korea as a 51st state.

 

[TrotBot]

What if your liberating egalitarians? This rework seems very specific for egalitarians and hurts Authoritarians and Xenophobes more than any other ethic.

Part of the problem is the game calls liberation and impose ideology the same thing even though they mean different things. They should split those 2 CBs liberation Wars of Egalitarian/Xenophile empires that are upset about slavery, or any empire who's founder species are being envslaved. Ideology wars more explicitly are about changing another empire's beliefs and may be favored by Spiritualist to convert the nonbelievers.

Keep in mind the current wars do cost the empire its leadership, sure maybe you can destabilize North Korea, don't expect Kim Jong Un to surrender just because you promised not to add North Korea as a 51st state.

Yes well slavers (including robot slavers) and purgers don't need buffs to the propagation of their ideology across the galaxy, they're already way too strong as is and need massive nerfs. Liberation wars as you said should be one form of imposing ideology and slaver wars are not liberation wars. Imposing that would not receive the support of the majority of the society you're invading, who have a material interest in opposing your desire to enslave them.

You have your map painter, give the egalitarians theirs now.

As for the death of the leader, typically it is the masses themselves who kill him not the invaders backing their revolt. So this could be a good way, if you hit a certain threshold your people kill your leader, switch ideologies, and end the war. That threshold should not be the same as annexing every planet. Obviously it shouldn't be TOO easy but it is currently way too hard. Not in a skillful way, just a boring grind.

 

[GOLANX]

Yes well slavers (including robot slavers) and purgers don't need buffs to the propagation of their ideology across the galaxy, they're already way too strong as is and need massive nerfs. Liberation wars as you said should be one form of imposing ideology and slaver wars are not liberation wars. Imposing that would not receive the support of the majority of the society you're invading, who have a material interest in opposing your desire to enslave them.

You have your map painter, give the egalitarians theirs now.

As for the death of the leader, typically it is the masses themselves who kill him not the invaders backing their revolt. So this could be a good way, if you hit a certain threshold your people kill your leader, switch ideologies, and end the war. That threshold should not be the same as annexing every planet. Obviously it shouldn't be TOO easy but it is currently way too hard. Not in a skillful way, just a boring grind.

Slavers are good because slavery is good, if a slaver imposes his ideology then he is not taking slaves, the propagation of the slaver's ideology isn't part of the problem. If Paradox were to take appropriate action to nerf slavery/buff nonslavery then you will have harmed a mechanism by which slavers might advance. This is why ideology should be a separate CB from liberation which should be as you described.

 

[HFY]

Yes well slavers (including robot slavers) and purgers don't need buffs to the propagation of their ideology across the galaxy, they're already way too strong as is and need massive nerfs. Liberation wars as you said should be one form of imposing ideology and slaver wars are not liberation wars. Imposing that would not receive the support of the majority of the society you're invading, who have a material interest in opposing your desire to enslave them.

I mean, it's like a Fascist is attacking your empire, and then suddenly your government is back-stabbed by the local Fascists and fools who have been miseducated into supporting Fascism. You can definitely get local support for enslaving a portion of your own population if you can trick certain fools into thinking they're going to end up on top.

It's a (Dr. Evil finger-quotes) "Liberation" War, not a Liberation War, but the same mechanics could serve both.

if a slaver imposes his ideology then he is not taking slaves

Nihilistic Acquisition says: "Why not both?"

 

[GOLANX]

I mean, it's like a Fascist is attacking your empire, and then suddenly your government is back-stabbed by the local Fascists and fools who have been miseducated into supporting Fascism. You can definitely get local support for enslaving a portion of your own population if you can trick certain fools into thinking they're going to end up on top.

My xenophobic empire wants to spread Xenophobia, I need you to hate me so I can hate you, so your can hate me, in some kind of mobeus loop of mutual hatred, making friends is for xenophiles and Blorg, I fight to make enemies.

It's a (Dr. Evil finger-quotes) "Liberation" War, not a Liberation War, but the same mechanics could serve both.


Nihilistic Acquisition says: "Why not both?"

Your weakening an empire that your are explicitly trying to turn into an ally, if your going to raid why not just conquer? It's faster.

 

[HFY]

Your weakening an empire that your are explicitly trying to turn into an ally, if your going to raid why not just conquer? It's faster.

Less Influence than conquering = more Influence for gigastructures.

No horrible AI planets to fix.

Just more pops on my decently-built planets, and also an ally who can do ally things like build branch offices to give me +1 Merchant on every planet.

 

[TrotBot]

ok yeah i think that the same mechanic could work for a space fascist fifth column, but i was just saying that it makes sense that the mechanic would be easier on liberators than the other way around. the way that continuous war and that kind of stuff is a bit easier on them than it is on liberators. so like, a utopian doing their job properly would not have as much danger of having slavery imposed on them as a slaver having liberation imposed on them. but a utopian with unhappy pops, instability, crime, large authoritarian faction or xenophobe faction etc... etc... would be ripe for those factions to generate those armies when the space fascists come looking for space vichy to use.

 

[HFY]

ok yeah i think that the same mechanic could work for a space fascist fifth column, but i was just saying that it makes sense that the mechanic would be easier on liberators than the other way around. the way that continuous war and that kind of stuff is a bit easier on them than it is on liberators. so like, a utopian doing their job properly would not have as much danger of having slavery imposed on them as a slaver having liberation imposed on them. but a utopian with unhappy pops, instability, crime, large authoritarian faction or xenophobe faction etc... etc... would be ripe for those factions to generate those armies when the space fascists come looking for space vichy to use.

Yeah if you're a horrible slaver then the number of unhappy Egalitarian / Xenophile / Pacifist pops in your empire is probably going to be high. If you're a happy Utopian Abundance paradise then the number of unhappy Authoritarian / Xenophobe / Militarist pops is probably going to be low.

Just base it off number of dissident pops, and their happiness. That handles both cases equally, and it works out in your favor.

Also for example:

- If you're a "good" slaver who has a relatively small number of happy slaves (= Authoritarian attraction) then you would have a lower number of malcontents agitating for liberation.

- If you're a low-happiness Materialist and you have a ton of unhappy Spiritualist pops, then you would be vulnerable to "Liberation" by a Spiritualist empire -- and of course vice-versa for an unhappy Spiritualist.

 

[Pancakelord]

slaver having liberation imposed on them

If it's done right, you would never need to 'impose' liberty on anyone. They would ask for it.

Liberation wars should not be something you can trigger like other wars, they should arise from

1. successful rebellions in another empire (possibly caused by your spies) that would then turn to the closest, strongest, most aligned neighbors and ask for help. [This is actually an event in Stellaris btw, but it could stand to be developed further].
2. GC sanctions over atrocities [real or fabricated] granting carte blanche for 'GC peacekeepers' to intervene on behalf of the disenfranchised.
   1. Triggered by spy operations or
   2. Randomly your envoys in a country could occasionally have 'atrocity witnessed' events - as applicable - you can choose to publicize the issue (leading to sanctions+liberation) or bury it for increased Diplo relations, favours and influence or resources.

For everything else, there is impose ideology.

Though I do like the Idea of rolling stability hits and sub-rebellions during wars (maybe only for large empires, so on a per sector basis - like a sector governor mutiny, or the navy command splintering after a bad fight and pushing you to white peace or face a coup).

 

[HFY]

Randomly your envoys in a country could occasionally have 'atrocity witnessed' events - as applicable - you can choose to publicize the issue (leading to sanctions+liberation) or bury it for increased Diplo relations, favours and influence or resources.

That fits if the target empire has Information Quarantine or similar.

For a more open society, they may have a freely published opposition press -- and that's a thing which should be very easy to leverage via Espionage into a source of anti-government propaganda.

No need for the Ambassador to get its tentacles dirty if their own citizens are willing to dish their dirt.

 

[TrotBot]

Also, I would object to making it only go through the GC. It would be nice to have GC resolutions to trigger a liberation war with the support of the galaxy, but I don't think it should be GC only. Sometimes the GC are slavers on the way to imperium and I'm the one who's the rogue state running around trying to overthrow slavers.

 

[Commander Tobe]

1. Liberation wars should impact stability based on who they're liberating. Slaves who are being liberated should generate their own armies to join the liberators. Same for anyone being purged or given lower living standards lower than the main species.

I generally like this idea. Add a percentage of the local party supporters who are opposing the government factions whose demand aren't met by at least half and we have a deal. Add new ship models like weaponized leisure cruisers to join your armada (like the rebels in star wars) and maybe gain a spy asset. You could have very thematic playthroughs with this change.
But I can see that this is very specifically an anti-autocratic change.

Still a good idea though.

 

[TrotBot]

I generally like this idea. Add a percentage of the local party supporters who are opposing the government factions whose demand aren't met by at least half and we have a deal. Add new ship models like weaponized leisure cruisers to join your armada (like the rebels in star wars) and maybe gain a spy asset. You could have very thematic playthroughs with this change.
But I can see that this is very specifically an anti-autocratic change.

Still a good idea though.

as people said above, it totally could still be used by authoritarians invading utopians, but it would require some sort of crisis or mistake on the part of the utopians for there to be enough unhappiness and a strong enough authoritarian faction to make use of

 

[HFY]

as people said above, it totally could still be used by authoritarians invading utopians, but it would require some sort of crisis or mistake on the part of the utopians for there to be enough unhappiness and a strong enough authoritarian faction to make use of

Or any other ethos invading any other ethos.

The 5th column fascist "liberators" are one example, but Xenophiles overthrowing Xenophobes (and vice-versa) would also use the same mechanic, as would Spiritualists overthrowing Materialists (and vice-versa), etc.