• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

SDSkinner

Lt. General
71 Badges
Feb 19, 2012
1.340
374
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Majesty 2
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For The Glory
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • 500k Club
I dont know of any recessions that didnt happen because of either war or currency debasement/introduction of fiat money, if there are any, please show me.

The recession of 1797, caused by British deflation
Recession of 1802-1804 caused by a horrifying outbreak of peace between England and France
Recession of 1807 due to government embargo against England
1825 stock bubble
1826 English embargo
1833 government kills central bank; recession follows

This does not seem really obvious, though it's a common talking point. I think you could equally well argue that, since 1913, there have been fewer recessions but worse ones. Additionally you have to consider that you cannot directly compare the period 1880-1945, when the US was one of many industrial economies, to 1945-1965 (which is usually the period people speak of when extolling the virtues of regulations, high taxes, and unions), when the US was the only industrial economy that wasn't a bombed-out hellhole. A lot of what is often attributed to US-internal arrangements can be much better explained in terms of having zero competition for manufactured goods.

Additionally the US was in a recession from 1929-1940 and was focused on war spending from 1940-1945. This meant that all the new technologies and inventions that were created and improved during those years didn't get their full application on the civilian market and so the US economy got to grow much faster after the war.
 

Comrade Chaos

Husky
55 Badges
Dec 17, 2009
1.553
73
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
True, but only after you've researched most of the banking line. Unless, of course, you've invented Ludwig von Mises. ;)
I love this forum.
Additionally the US was in a recession from 1929-1940 and was focused on war spending from 1940-1945. This meant that all the new technologies and inventions that were created and improved during those years didn't get their full application on the civilian market and so the US economy got to grow much faster after the war.
The US was the only country to have any sort of benefit from the war because they weren't bombed, which makes a considerable difference. Let alone Near full employment from the draft and wartime production and giant gov't debt.
 

Rangergxi

Oy vey
42 Badges
Dec 13, 2010
418
25
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Pride of Nations
  • Prison Architect
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • The Showdown Effect
War

To fix the economy we should declare a crap ton of wars. I suggest Iran ;)
Should we have a giant army just for the sake of hiring people? Let's remember that the government sucks at spending money without losing it and wasting it. Individuals who actually earn the money themselves are more careful with their money, and if they screw up only they get screwed over for the most part. I also have a moral obligation with the idea that we should have needless wars just to maintain a healthy economy.. I like my laptop but really.

Anyways, I think this off-topic :wacko:
Turning this game into an economics simulation would be incredibly hard. Of course this game shows that capitalism is the greatest economic system ;)

Not sure if I trust the government with money, since the Federal Reserve in the US is corrupt as hell but I don't like the idea of a private system either.
 

GAGA Extrem

Per Ardua Ad Astra
External QA
121 Badges
Mar 19, 2004
11.469
4.989
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Dungeonland
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
TBN, I think the output bonus for LF is a bit OP.
Granted, you give up a lot with LF, but I would rather see a somewhat diversified bonus. :>

Anyway, at the very least it is now a useful economic issue, unlike in vanilla. :D
 

Sovereign

No Gods, No Bosses.
14 Badges
Mar 24, 2004
1.575
0
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
Austrian Economics shows that only paper money i.e. money not backed by anything like all currencies today can cause the business cycle.
As people used gold (except for brief periods like after the civil war in America) this doesnt happen because there arent any bubbles to burst. :)
.

This statement shows a stunning ignorance of history. Humans will always find a way to blow bubbles, and if the state backs it's money with gold, people will find ways of inventing new money. Nobody can control mankind's ability to make new promises, be they wild or serious.

ps, I'll give you two Paradox titles if you'll carve me a sculpture.
 

Biges

Lt. General
17 Badges
May 10, 2005
1.687
139
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • 500k Club
  • 200k Club
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
Good, old, solid gold standard. One wonders why had Spain gone bankrupt so many times despite being flooded by gold and silver from the New World... heh, heh.

Anyway, I truly like how V2 portaits free marker capitalist economies. Yes, capitalists make mistakes, but they care about their factories, about daily working, because they know nobody will save/subsidise them (thus increased production/quality of it). Workers are fired, but they are quickly hired or factories are build.
 

KonradRichtmark

Field Marshal
58 Badges
Feb 20, 2005
4.427
272
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
The Victoria 2 engine doesn't really allow for business cycles, booms and busts to occur naturally. The reason being that such things tend to be caused by collective mass herd behaviour by investors and/or consumers. Whereas in Victoria 2, every consumer is constantly in the same behaviour (instantly spend all the money I get until I get 100% luxuries, then start putting money in the bank), and every investor likewise (build a factory as soon as some place has high enough factory occupancy, do an independent weighted random die roll for what factory).
 

Naselus

PDM's Benevolent Dictator for Life
56 Badges
Feb 26, 2009
14.260
1.598
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Pride of Nations
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Knights of Honor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Actually, V2 can have boom and bust cycles, based on capital concentrations rather than consumer confidence. If too much money gets pulled out of the real economy and dumped into national banks or the government purse, then demand will fall and produce a recession. Money will pump back out of the concentrations (as POPs withdraw their savings and governments begin to deficit spend) and the economy will move back into a boom. The same is true of gold-backed currencies IRL - you can still have boom-bust cycles in any system where capital is permitted to concentrate.
 

GAGA Extrem

Per Ardua Ad Astra
External QA
121 Badges
Mar 19, 2004
11.469
4.989
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Dungeonland
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Apart from that, you could use events to alter pop needs and/or factory efficiency.
Hyperinflation in Ricky (and partially in Vicky 2) had such affect, didn't it?
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.866
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
Actually, V2 can have boom and bust cycles, based on capital concentrations rather than consumer confidence. If too much money gets pulled out of the real economy and dumped into national banks or the government purse, then demand will fall and produce a recession. Money will pump back out of the concentrations (as POPs withdraw their savings and governments begin to deficit spend) and the economy will move back into a boom. The same is true of gold-backed currencies IRL - you can still have boom-bust cycles in any system where capital is permitted to concentrate.

This is true.

However, what Vic2 won't give us are bank panics and massive credit failures. Yes, entire countries can go bankrupt (and boy do they), but what we won't ever see are capis borrowing 1 million pounds sterling, investing them in fertilizer factories, and then going bust when the factories fail, causing a huge credit default that wipes the savings of 90% of the population. When countries go bankrupt now, they rarely wipe out large amounts of POP savings because the national bank loans out to several countries at once. Once the national bank has around a million pounds sterling in it, it's probably immune to bankruptcies, as they won't ever lose enough on a single bankruptcy to stand a chance of wiping out more than 5% of your POPs savings.

I think this why I don't see that many boom and bust cycles. They exist, but they never get carried away because capis can't over-invest in badly thought out schemes. Even the stock market failure events aren't that bad.

The real enemy in Vic2 AHD is still having too much money sitting in the bank in the first place, as you point out. But even then, if your economy is awesome, POPs are probably not going to hurt too much from the deflation.

EDIT: And I think that prices are not free floating enough to make deflation a serious threat anyway. When was the last time you saw steamers selling for $20? Or luxury furniture selling for $25? Despite massive overproduction, those prices aren't going to go through the floor (and trust me, I've overproduced both of them death my last game). By the same token, prices aren't going to rise to ridiculous heights. When was the last time you saw grain priced at $5 a unit? Hell, if you really wanted to kill your POPs standard of living, let grain and fruit prices go up by 200%. That'll hurt them plenty. But even with capital collecting in the national banks, we don't see prices do that.
 

lol887

Captain
8 Badges
Oct 25, 2010
409
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I don't get why people always say paper(or electornic) money is the problem, and that having a Gold standard will somehow fix everything.
Having a gold standard does not change anything, as it is not worth anything more than paper money. In both cases the community using the currency agrees on a value, and then trade goods in exchange for a currency worth a certain value, then because the community agree on the value of that currency, they can use it to buy other goods.
So in theory gold is just worth as much as people want it to be worth, and is thus no better means of exchange than a pice of paper.
You could say that you could sell the gold and use it to make jewelry or other stuff, but it still operates under supply and demand, and thus has no fixed value.
Thus the value of the currency will not be fixed with the fiat currency, thus removing the whole point of having it.
Having a fiat currency also causes problems when the economy grow. When the economy grows, you need more money. This is because there are produced more goods, people earn more money, they spend it on more goods etc. If each currency need to be fixed to a certain amount of gold, you will run out of gold in the end. The only option you have then is to devalue the currency, so it's worth less gold than before. Thus removing the reason to have a gold standard in the first place.
 

Naselus

PDM's Benevolent Dictator for Life
56 Badges
Feb 26, 2009
14.260
1.598
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Pride of Nations
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Knights of Honor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
I don't get why people always say paper(or electornic) money is the problem, and that having a Gold standard will somehow fix everything.
Having a gold standard does not change anything, as it is not worth anything more than paper money. In both cases the community using the currency agrees on a value, and then trade goods in exchange for a currency worth a certain value, then because the community agree on the value of that currency, they can use it to buy other goods.
So in theory gold is just worth as much as people want it to be worth, and is thus no better means of exchange than a pice of paper.
You could say that you could sell the gold and use it to make jewelry or other stuff, but it still operates under supply and demand, and thus has no fixed value.
Thus the value of the currency will not be fixed with the fiat currency, thus removing the whole point of having it.
Having a fiat currency also causes problems when the economy grow. When the economy grows, you need more money. This is because there are produced more goods, people earn more money, they spend it on more goods etc. If each currency need to be fixed to a certain amount of gold, you will run out of gold in the end. The only option you have then is to devalue the currency, so it's worth less gold than before. Thus removing the reason to have a gold standard in the first place.

Having a gold standard means that gold has a fixed value... and fiat money is 'paper money'. Gold or silver standard are bullion.

But yes, it's von Hayek voodoo nonsense to claim there's any relation between paper money and business cycles, relying mostly on some pitifully obvious logical flaws. But this is the man who brought us the idea that anything other than a completely free market is automatically a totalitarian dictatorship. The Austrian school are notorious for ignoring anything which might be considered a downside to a free market.
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.866
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
Well, whether you like it or not, and whether you have invented it or not in your commerce techs, the currency standard in Vic2 is a precious metals standard. This carries with it some consequences.

This means that the money supply is limited and fixed AND you can't do much about it. The only way the money supply expands is either people pull savings out of banks or the precious metal mines produce more wealth. I think the money supply is fairly balanced; however, I also think that POPs and their needs should be a bit more dynamic. I'd love to see a system where POPs that get luxury needs for more than a year start increasing all of their needs in response to economic prosperity.

Still, there was a time, though, when precious metals were also a commodity in Victoria. In the original Vicky, precious metals sold on the WM like everything else. There was even demand from POPs for it. However, the funny part of that system was that RGOs could be expanded infinitely. One game, as Japan, I was able to satisfy the world's entire demand for precious metals just from the mine in Hyogo (yes, Japan was the the Empire of Bling at that point). Of course, that version of Vicky also had a WM that bought everything ever produced and stored it in special underground vaults and paid for it with magically appearing money. I tend to prefer the current setup, though I wonder what might happen if precious metals stopped being tied to currency and just produced a product that people bought like everything else.
 

GAGA Extrem

Per Ardua Ad Astra
External QA
121 Badges
Mar 19, 2004
11.469
4.989
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Dungeonland
  • East India Company Collection
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Maybe we will see something like in earlier versions of the VRRP mod:
Money supply diminishes and in the end there is no money anywhere, so nothing is produced our bought. Forever. :D
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.866
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
Maybe we will see something like in earlier versions of the VRRP mod:
Money supply diminishes and in the end there is no money anywhere, so nothing is produced our bought. Forever. :D

The perfect economic system. Completely quantifiable and all behaviors verified and accounted for. All transactions 100% transparent and understood. Sign me up! :)

Obviously, you'd probably want money supply regulated in some other way, probably with some kind of fiat system. But I have no clue how one would build a game like that.

EDIT: And EU's solution to "minting" is not the right answer here. Although it would be funny. :)
 

larlin

Second Lieutenant
56 Badges
Nov 1, 2003
103
8
Visit site
  • Stellaris
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Rome Gold
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • IPO Investor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Surviving Mars
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
The US was the only country to have any sort of benefit from the war because they weren't bombed, which makes a considerable difference. Let alone Near full employment from the draft and wartime production and giant gov't debt.

I'll just throw a country out there.... Sweden, we benefited greatly from being in Europe and not bombed.
 

Naselus

PDM's Benevolent Dictator for Life
56 Badges
Feb 26, 2009
14.260
1.598
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Pride of Nations
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Knights of Honor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
I'd love to see a system where POPs that get luxury needs for more than a year start increasing all of their needs in response to economic prosperity.

They do; CON increases needs and lux needs fulfilment increases CON. A POP with 10 CON needs roughly double the amount of goods as a POP with 0 CON.
 

GGI

Recruit
70 Badges
Mar 26, 2011
6
0
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Austrian Economics shows that only paper money i.e. money not backed by anything like all currencies today can cause the business cycle.
No it doesn't. Not Rothbard, not Hayek, not Mises - no Austrian I have ever heard has claimed this.

You also need to understand that most Austrians don't consider the 19th century a perfect "sound money" paradise, and there were several mistakes made during the period
Depends on what country You look at and which Austrians You consider. The free-banking Austrians have considered several 19th cent. economies, like Scotland and Canada, which had banking systems approximating free-banking in several respects and they worked like a charm. No panics in Canada, few in Scotland. And considering how closely tied those two economies were to the relatively volatile US and England, that's quite a feat. (see eg. Selgin, The Theory of Free Banking, pp. 5-12). Though I suppose it's true that those systems were not ideal free markets, either.

Not really, the American economy has become more stable since government began intervening more. I don't pretend to know the direction of the causation, but the correlation is the opposite of what you say it is.
No, it hasn't. The NBER statistics have been under attack from economists for years. Newer time series suggest the volatility of the pre-Fed era is less than the post-Fed era and not much different from the post-WWII era. See Selgin, Lastrapes, White (2010) Has the Fed Been a Failure, or if You consider a Cato paper biased, Christina Romer (1986) Is the Stabilization of the Postwar Economy a Figment of the Data?.
Like You, I don't pretend to know why that is. You may argue that without the Fed things would be worse because of stickier prices or unmoored inflation expectations, but on the face of it, Your claim is not obviously correct I'm afraid.
Also, consider, US governments had been active in the economy prior to the establishment of the Fed. The banking system was heavily regulated on the state level and there was a lot of going back-and-forth with national banks, suspentions of specie payments and Gresham's-law switches in the effective standard because of the rigid statutory bimetallism. As far as I know, Canada's system on the other hand, which was less regulated for the most part, was generally more responsive to seasonal, and even secular, money demand changes.

Actually, V2 can have boom and bust cycles, based on capital concentrations rather than consumer confidence. If too much money gets pulled out of the real economy and dumped into national banks or the government purse, then demand will fall and produce a recession.
I'm curious as to how this works in economic terms. Is this because prices for goods are sticky? Or is it just a simple case of RBC with a supply shock? Are wages sticky in Vicky? I really don't know much the inner workings of its economic system.

I don't get why people always say paper(or electornic) money is the problem, and that having a Gold standard will somehow fix everything.
One major argument is that one of the most important things in considering the macroeconomic stability of a country are inflation expectations. They, or, more accurately, NGDP expectations pretty much make or break an economic system in the short run, because, with sticky prices, they determine future demand. If they become low enough to make the expected real interest rate negative, they can also cause liquidity traps. The problem with paper money is that inflation expectations depend entirely on the credibility of the central bank; if it doesn't credibly signal a consistent policy, it's not able reliably to manage the situation. And since central banks do a lot of pretty crazy stuff nowadays (a lot of it good, mind You), it's not entirely given what one can expect. However, a gold standard anchors long-term inflation expectations - bar discoveries of new continents, one is pretty certain how much money will be able to buy in 20 years, beyond the scope of any short-term recession.
This doesn't mean that a gold standard doesn't have important flaws, but there You have it.

The only option you have then is to devalue the currency, so it's worth less gold than before. Thus removing the reason to have a gold standard in the first place.
Or You can just have deflation. Which, by the way, works just fine outside a liquidity trap - there is little correlation between deflation and recession outside those few traumatic experiences everybody knows. It might make a liquidity trap more likely, tho. Also, You can always have fractional-reserve expansions, as interbank clearing becomes less aggressive in response to money demand changes, whilst still having a gold standard. That's how free-banking usually works.

But yes, it's von Hayek voodoo nonsense to claim there's any relation between paper money and business cycles, relying mostly on some pitifully obvious logical flaws.
Hayek was in favour of paper (fiat) money. Depending on what You mean by paper money, so was von Mises and pretty much most Austrians until Rothbard came along. And no Austrian to my knowledge claims paper money in and of itself causes business cycles.
People really should understand that there's a big difference between Austrian economics and herpy-derpy internet Austrianism.

But this is the man who brought us the idea that anything other than a completely free market is automatically a totalitarian dictatorship.
Hayek himself was in favour of an economic system quite removed from a completely free market. What he did claim is that any system which is not a free market is vulnerable to political and economic pressure and can thus give in to a process leading towards authoritarianism. I find much to disagree with in Hayek, but this argument I consider extremely persuasive, personally.
 

Naselus

PDM's Benevolent Dictator for Life
56 Badges
Feb 26, 2009
14.260
1.598
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Pride of Nations
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • March of the Eagles
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Knights of Honor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
I'm curious as to how this works in economic terms. Is this because prices for goods are sticky? Or is it just a simple case of RBC with a supply shock? Are wages sticky in Vicky? I really don't know much the inner workings of its economic system.

Nothing so complex, tbh. Capis and countries tend to collect more money than they can use, taking it out of circulation. As money has a fixed velocity in V2, there is a maximum number of transactions available per day, and removing money from circulation reduces the number of potential transactions. So by the inherent tendency of the capitalist to accumulate money, liquidity drains out of the system even as productivity increases, leading to a limited boom-bust cycle. The market will boom until liquidity drains, where upon the poor will struggle to afford anything due to the lack of cash and demand will drop. Industries will begin to fail, leading to POPs losing income and having to spend their savings, which pumps the liquidity back into the system. Since cash doesn't expand at the same rate as industry, and since some cash is constantly being put aside into savings by the Capis, this behaviour is both cyclical and semi-random.

What he did claim is that any system which is not a free market is vulnerable to political and economic pressure and can thus give in to a process leading towards authoritarianism. I find much to disagree with in Hayek, but this argument I consider extremely persuasive, personally.

In Road to Serfdom he declared it was inevitable, rather than that it was a possibility, since any form of government intervention in the market is automatically coercive. It doesn't gel particularly well with his later assertion that there can be a (minuscule) welfare state and that government can intervene to regulate production, tho. Polanyi is considerably more persuasive, imo.
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.866
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
They do; CON increases needs and lux needs fulfilment increases CON. A POP with 10 CON needs roughly double the amount of goods as a POP with 0 CON.

That's not what I mean, exactly (although it's a good thing). I mean something with no upper limit that is tied time spent with luxury goods. Con can only go up to 10, which caps this effect (and makes it strangely volatile to granting reforms, which cuts CON across the board).

However, I didn't know that the CON effect was that powerful, so I'm rethinking what I originally thought even as I write this. Maybe I've just gotten way too efficient in producing goods to satisfy all demand on the WM and am just desperate for a break. :D