Levy Support Costs

[Secret Master]

I've seen mercs and the economy fluctuate a lot in the preview. Because there are several factors at play in terms of what holdings and penalties you have, and how mercs fight in battle, it's a multi-tiered problem.

You guys can't see it in the demo (probably), but the mercenary population is variable depending on your geographical location, which is another important factor. Even if you have piles of cash, if all the mercs are already hired out, you simply can't use them at all. And since mercs have to regenerate their strength over time, they are difficult to abuse in any way after the game passes the 50 year mark (as claims pile up, wars are more frequent). I've seen versions of the game where you end up paying 300 gold for some lousy 1,000 merc regiment because they are all hired and the only one left is only at 25% of its original strength thanks to a recent conflict.

 

[KroganElite]

I wont be using excomm either. Seems too easy. And the Ai wont abuse it.

Multipplayer I suppose people will just ban certain things so will be fine.

My Irish Duke would like to have a word with you. He got excommunicated 3 times in a row by the same person before I got pissed off and assassinated him. You can ask for forgiveness for 165gold(iirc), but right after I did that he just asked the pope again. He would have done it about 6 more times because of all the piety he had.

 

[Alerias]

My Irish Duke would like to have a word with you. He got excommunicated 3 times in a row by the same person before I got pissed off and assassinated him. You can ask for forgiveness for 165gold(iirc), but right after I did that he just asked the pope again. He would have done it about 6 more times because of all the piety he had.

Yeah there should be a truce-like cooldown on how often you can excom a given NPC. Basically as long as the Pope has the "Asked forgiveness for his sins" modifier, that person should be safe...

 

[Secret Master]

My Irish Duke would like to have a word with you. He got excommunicated 3 times in a row by the same person before I got pissed off and assassinated him. You can ask for forgiveness for 165gold(iirc), but right after I did that he just asked the pope again. He would have done it about 6 more times because of all the piety he had.

That's not the only way to deal with a spammy Pope. If you can, nominating an anti-Pope also clears all excommunication in your realm and immunizes you from the same. Even if you never place your anti-Pope on the throne of St. Peter, being immunized from excommunication and invasion CBs is quite handy.

You can also raise relations with the Pope. If you get your relations up high enough, he just isn't going to be willing to excom you at all.

 

[HolisticGod]

Captain Gars,

I figured, and it's very good to hear it. These sorts of things must be a nightmare to balance once the engine is so complex and there are so many "countries."

SM,

I would hope so, but lost in the discussion has been my feeling that levies are also too cheap, especially to maintain. I am concerned about mercenaries, but they're less important after the early game, at least insofar as I can tell (and CK's levy inflation, which I hope is at least a bit better in CK II, would suggest so). What will simply be a problem throughout is excessive money. For all CK's (Snowball-induced) problems, the thing it did better than any other Paradox game before or since was model the necessity of a war chest and the expense of a long campaign, at least before the player became so strong that he could easily defeat any AI with 1/10th his levies, but there's nothing any game can do about that (apart from making it harder to reach; i.e., by making war yet more expensive).

All,

For those arguing that mercenaries defined warfare in this period, I agree, although some of you overstate it. "Professional" armies in the sense we understand it were very rare until the modern period, at least after the fall of Rome. But levies and militia were the backbone of medieval warfare, even if mercenaries were frequently more decisive.

But I think you miss the point. We're not arguing that mercenaries themselves should be weakened (indeed, I'm worried that they will be too weak in the late game, given that even during the Thirty Years War mercenaries remained integral). We're arguing that they, as well as levies and warfare in general, should be much more expensive, and that they should be much more dangerous in the ways we outlined a few pages back.

The point is, you use them because you just can't resist, or because you must, and they may fuck you. That's realistic. And a lot more fun, at least in my view.

 

[fenwayb]

My Irish Duke would like to have a word with you. He got excommunicated 3 times in a row by the same person before I got pissed off and assassinated him. You can ask for forgiveness for 165gold(iirc), but right after I did that he just asked the pope again. He would have done it about 6 more times because of all the piety he had.

I really like that they have the option to just buy it off though. It allows you to do a bit more with your money than just build or mercs. You can even buy piety...

 

[InnocentIII]

I just hope they don't balance the game for us (or are there difficulty settings here? I don't recall any in the manual). I don't want to see what I always think of as the Mech Commander problem: the game was obviously balanced with hardcore players in mind (you had to win the 4th scenario in a particular and very difficult way or the rest were ridiculously difficult). We want new folks to have a shot, and the trouble with Paradox games for newbs is that, unlike Civ and others, the game does not ease you into the choices. You're plopped down into the Byzantine Court and patted on the head. The tutorials are great, and it's not impossible to get, but I totally understand new players looking at stuff happening like a young girl popping the hood open when her car stops ("why won't my car go? The engine is still there!").

So, whatever they do, they need to make sure new peoples have a decent shot.

 

[Joel M Bridge]

I just hope they don't balance the game for us (or are there difficulty settings here? I don't recall any in the manual). I don't want to see what I always think of as the Mech Commander problem: the game was obviously balanced with hardcore players in mind (you had to win the 4th scenario in a particular and very difficult way or the rest were ridiculously difficult). We want new folks to have a shot, and the trouble with Paradox games for newbs is that, unlike Civ and others, the game does not ease you into the choices. You're plopped down into the Byzantine Court and patted on the head. The tutorials are great, and it's not impossible to get, but I totally understand new players looking at stuff happening like a young girl popping the hood open when her car stops ("why won't my car go? The engine is still there!").

So, whatever they do, they need to make sure new peoples have a decent shot.

I fell the same way in CK1 playing as coun was a nightmare or hell even duke with small duchy, it was hard too raise army and end up bankrup haft way throught trip or frist siege . This keep levies system I work with it special since vassal only pony up so many troop anyway. When game advances with better holding it going lot more prices to funding armies.

That I am suprise some guys do not hindsight the see how game is going deveploment through the course play to see it going to get more price.

 

[HolisticGod]

Innocent,

How hard could it be, though, to tie prices to difficulty? We were able to create all sorts of dynamic settings for EU II eventually, and that was just with the save file.

Playing a count wasn't a nightmare in CK, but you could definitely lose wars, be bankrupted, be conquered, etc. Why not? If you've lost 5 games before you won the 6th, isn't the 6th worth much more? If I can do whatever I like with any character right out of the box, what's the point?

 

[Fall of Stars]

I would hope so, but lost in the discussion has been my feeling that levies are also too cheap, especially to maintain. I am concerned about mercenaries, but they're less important after the early game, at least insofar as I can tell (and CK's levy inflation, which I hope is at least a bit better in CK II, would suggest so). What will simply be a problem throughout is excessive money. For all CK's (Snowball-induced) problems, the thing it did better than any other Paradox game before or since was model the necessity of a war chest and the expense of a long campaign, at least before the player became so strong that he could easily defeat any AI with 1/10th his levies, but there's nothing any game can do about that (apart from making it harder to reach; i.e., by making war yet more expensive).

I'm not sure I agree that levies are too cheap full stop. From what I can tell, the amount you can recruit goes up a lot faster than the amount of money you can make to pay for it. I just quit out of a game I'd been playing for a century or two, and though I had the "raise all your levies, keep making money" experience in the early game that took me from "duke of Brittany" to "king of Ireland and Wales", the money went away really quickly when my six province demesne was putting out 10-12k troops. And by that point in the game, most non-civil wars you'll be taking on will need at least that much force.

I actually had to feed my invasion of England through rransoms and loot, and even that stalled out while I was sieging my way through Somerset because even with 6k stacks all the sieges take so long. I did manage to get enough warscore to enforce the invasion CB in the end, but I had to leave the two English mega-dukes of York and Norfolk (along with five or six other duchies each) intact because my war chest was empty.

...and then one of them had my king assassinated, and between them, the short reign penalty on the heir, his 0 stewardship meaning he couldn't hold the same demesne as his father, and the -20 opinion from holding on to the vassal troops during my invasion, the entire damn country rebelled against poor Prince Everard and put an end to that game.

Maybe I'm just Bad at Infrastructure (though I was building as fast as tech would allow), but I think eventually war becomes expensive as hell to prosecute, between large troop contingents, large garrisons, and not-quite-enough income generation (unless you want to annoy your vassals even more by taxing them to hell).

 

[KroganElite]

That's not the only way to deal with a spammy Pope. If you can, nominating an anti-Pope also clears all excommunication in your realm and immunizes you from the same. Even if you never place your anti-Pope on the throne of St. Peter, being immunized from excommunication and invasion CBs is quite handy.

You can also raise relations with the Pope. If you get your relations up high enough, he just isn't going to be willing to excom you at all.

Yeah i'm wondering how that all works. How do I get my own Antipope or even get them to be the real pope?

 

[NADster]

I don't know if it is unrealistic, that after going to war and looting many foreign provinces, you have not less money than before.

Although it was much later (Thirty Years' War), there was the principle of bellum se ipsum alet (The war will feed itself), i.e. the whole support of an army was generated by looting foreign territory. This should be no problem in the game timeframe as well ...

 

[Sir Garnet]

I don't see the river of cash people refer to in the demo - it takes time to save up for building or raising troops. Spending warchest and development money on mercenaries is often necessary to defend onself when the levies are not enough. I would think this would be particularly important for the AI, not being as adept at deep planning. The AI certainly uses mercs aggressively, and makes their swelled armies a big threat.

A King's ransom should pay for a campaign, and battlefield loot could make common men rich compared with their background.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

I don't know if it is unrealistic, that after going to war and looting many foreign provinces, you have not less money than before.

Although it was much later (Thirty Years' War), there was the principle of bellum se ipsum alet (The war will feed itself), i.e. the whole support of an army was generated by looting foreign territory. This should be no problem in the game timeframe as well ...

That's not what they did in the timeframe, though. They couldn't really loot every place because people would stash away their foodstuffs in their lord's castle, which was not as easy to storm as it would be in the 17th century, and there weren't really as dense populations as there would be in the in later ages. Less peasants = less food stores.

Arab armies had a better way of organizing their supply BTW... their leader would bring a huge chest of money with him, and wherever they'd set up a siege camp, the peasants would come from far and wide to sell them their produce. In most places of the mid-east, the old Byzantine cities have long since fallen to ruin but there's often a city close by those ruins, that started out as an Arab siege camp.

 

[siis]

I'm not sure I agree that levies are too cheap full stop. From what I can tell, the amount you can recruit goes up a lot faster than the amount of money you can make to pay for it.

This.

Your costs increase way faster than you income. You can't see it in the 20 years of the demo.

 

[RJL18]

This.

Your costs increase way faster than you income. You can't see it in the 20 years of the demo.

Hmm, I hope you are right. But I have just managed to defeat scotland in year 3 of the demo as duke of lothian simply by saving up for a few years and then steamroller him with a 2.5k merc army. So easy. He had money (120 gold) but NEVER hired any mercs.

 

[FrozenWall]

Hmm, I hope you are right. But I have just managed to defeat scotland in year 3 of the demo as duke of lothian simply by saving up for a few years and then steamroller him with a 2.5k merc army. So easy. He had money (120 gold) but NEVER hired any mercs.

Having modded the game to start in 800 it is quite clear that within 30 or so years I can easily levy 1500 men from each castle with only tech lvl 1 buildings. While there are only 2 buildings adding income to castles there are 8 adding troops. So after a single generation I am in the red from levying my demesne, even with decent vassal relations. At this point I am worried mercs will be rush troops early game only to become swamped in levies late game...

 

[RJL18]

Having modded the game to start in 800 it is quite clear that within 30 or so years I can easily levy 1500 men from each castle with only tech lvl 1 buildings. While there are only 2 buildings adding income to castles there are 8 adding troops. So after a single generation I am in the red from levying my demesne, even with decent vassal relations. At this point I am worried mercs will be rush troops early game only to become swamped in levies late game...

Good point. However mercs could still be useful late game. I mean those extra 2.5k troops could easily turn the tide.

Thing is its hard to judge off the demo (and man waht a sick demo - best paradox title ever incoming imo). However, I agree with the start of this thread that in the demo that levys seem too easy to maintain too. I think war should be more crippling. Not to say war shouldnt work. It defo should.

Anyway hard to judge I suppose. I guess we have to wait for release! Either way this game is sick. And unlike Eu3 you cant just run everyone over because you do need to fabricate claims first which takes quite a while.

 

[FrozenWall]

levys seem too easy to maintain too. I think war should be more crippling. Not to say war shouldnt work. It defo should.

Problem being that a castle without buildings levies a mere 280 men and earns 6 gold, whereas a castle with all lvl2 buildings levies roughly 1200 men and earns 7,5 gold. So levies increased 400% while gold increased 20%. At that rate cheap levies are only a early game problem, gold from cities and bishoprics being subject to penalties and vassal relations.


One interesting change would be for mercs to spawn as allies rather than as levied troops, or alternate between rebels/allies/controlled by events. In fact what mercs needs is much more events, so instead of cost hikes they would demand your cash at inopportune moments. The AI also needs to learn to use mercs, and after they learn I want a plot to steal their mercs!

I have had mercs get an invasion cb on me once, more of that!

 

[RJL18]

Problem being that a castle without buildings levies a mere 280 men and earns 6 gold, whereas a castle with all lvl2 buildings levies roughly 1200 men and earns 7,5 gold. So levies increased 400% while gold increased 20%. At that rate cheap levies are only a early game problem, gold from cities and bishoprics being subject to penalties and vassal relations.


One interesting change would be for mercs to spawn as allies rather than as levied troops, or alternate between rebels/allies/controlled by events. In fact what mercs needs is much more events, so instead of cost hikes they would demand your cash at inopportune moments. The AI also needs to learn to use mercs, and after they learn I want a plot to steal their mercs!

I have had mercs get an invasion cb on me once, more of that!

True. And mercs cost more in release so its not as bad as in the demo either way.

You make good points about the gold and levy increase on castles. But castles arent meant to be big money makers. They are the heart of your military. Its the cities who make up the large proportion of your income, and so it is how much their gold goes up when they are upgraded which is most critical.

I agree mercs should have more events. So that they arent just like your levys but that they instead are harder to control (maybe they demand 50 gold randomly every so often (with a 8% chance to trigger) and if you dont pay they disband. And then there is also a 8% chance each month that they might turn into rebels. Mayb e those %'s are too high but I think we agree on prinicple.

Either way...ck2 = so good. Props to the devs imo.