Levy % is imbalanced in such funny degree

[Iosue Yu]

First, I want to say that, if you add 5% to something, it's not a big change if the base is 100%. This applies to things like Discipline, Damage values or upkeep.

But this Levy % is something really changing the game.

Say if you have 40 non-slave Pops, your basic Levy % is 12.5%. You get 5 Levy Units.

But, there are really broken things that give you a big of %.

Being a City-State gives you +12% of Levies. So you will get 24.5%. So if your city is relatively large with a lot of smaller territories, you can move your Pops into one single City and get the modifier. 40 non-Slave Pops give you 9.8 Units. So if you get 1 more Pop, you get 10 Units.

Things are also quite wacky in the Tribes. You get an extra 5% for being a Confederated Tribe or a Migratory Tribe. With 40 non-Slave Pops, you get 7 Units.

Negative Centralisation also gives you 2.5% for each -10% of Centralisation. So a Migratory Tribe with -50 Centralisation, the starting condition for a lot of Migratory Tribes, would have something like 25% of Levy %, giving 10 Units for each 40 non-Slave Pops.

Last I want to add, the advantage of 1 extra Unit isn't just 20% of advantage. It's more like 50% in terms of extra chance to win. So having these arbitrary extra 5% here and there really make things funnily imbalanced.

 

[Autonomous]

"City state" here means the nation rank, i.e. it has only one territory. If your city is "relatively large with a lot of smaller territories"... you're not a city state, you're a local power.

Tribes can also be city states, by the way!

 

[Bovrick]

Why are these things imbalanced in your opinion?

 

[nikkythegreat]

I dont think its imbalanced. I gives more impact than most modifiers but not imbalanced.

City state is only 1 territory so the +12% levy size doest make them OP but gives them a chance to survive.

Decentralized tribes gain a larger levy size but thats at the cost of having no legions or tech. It makes them viable.

 

[Iosue Yu]

"City state" here means the nation rank, i.e. it has only one territory. If your city is "relatively large with a lot of smaller territories"... you're not a city state, you're a local power.

Tribes can also be city states, by the way!

You become a City State if you've moved all your Pops into a single City.

 

[Iosue Yu]

I dont think its imbalanced. I gives more impact than most modifiers but not imbalanced.

City state is only 1 territory so the +12% levy size doest make them OP but gives them a chance to survive.

Decentralized tribes gain a larger levy size but thats at the cost of having no legions or tech. It makes them viable.

You get the chance to survive by having the 4 Base Units.

A 24.5% makes a City State, which can get as much as 50 Pops, have as many as 11 or 12 Units.

But if you start occupying a random territory, like you normally do, you suddenly lose half your Units in the Levy.

Compare a Tribe with 12.5% Levy Ratio with 20 plots of land and 60 Pops. It's likely they have around 18 Slaves, so only 42 non-Slave Pops can contribute to Levies. The result is 5 Units.

A City-State with just 40 Pops gets 7 Units.

A non-Tribe Republic of Monarchy with 3 or so Territories, like Argos, with 50 or so Pops, would likely have around just 5 to 6 Slave. But the next threshold is 48 after 40 due to 12.5% Levy %, so the result is also 5 Units.

Edit: Rewriting the above in a clearer format:

Case	Size	Pops	Levy %	Levy Size
City-State	1 City	40~ Estimated Slaves: 5	24.5%	7 Units
Normal Republic or Monarchy	1 City and 2 Settlements	50~ Estimated Slaves: 5~8	12.5%	5 Units
Settled Tribe	0 or 1 City with 20 Settlements	60~ Estimated Slaves: 15~18	12.5%	5 Units

 

[Jiben]

You become a City State if you've moved all your Pops into a single City.

Considering you can only move slaves it would be decently hard for civilized nations to do this if nothing else. Tribes can also move tribesmen but i'm unconvinced it's all that broken for tribes since it would be hard to get more than 50 pop cap as most of them (since civ level is so low they lack aqueducts) and it forces you to stay as a single city.

City states getting extra levies seem like a non issue to me.

 

[Bovrick]

You get the chance to survive by having the 4 Base Units.

A 24.5% makes a City State, which can get as much as 50 Pops, have as many as 11 or 12 Units.

But if you start occupying a random territory, like you normally do, you suddenly lose half your Units in the Levy.

Compare a Tribe with 12.5% Levy Ratio with 20 plots of land and 60 Pops. It's likely they have around 18 Slaves, so only 42 non-Slave Pops can contribute to Levies. The result is 5 Units.

A City-State with just 40 Pops gets 7 Units.

A non-Tribe Republic of Monarchy with 3 or so Territories, like Argos, with 50 or so Pops, would likely have around just 5 to 6 Slave. But the next threshold is 48 after 40 due to 12.5% Levy %, so the result is also 5 Units.

Edit: Rewriting the above in a clearer format:

Case	Size	Pops	Levy %	Levy Size
City-State	1 City	40~ Estimated Slaves: 5	24.5%	7 Units
Normal Republic or Monarchy	1 City and 2 Settlements	50~ Estimated Slaves: 5~8	12.5%	5 Units
Settled Tribe	0 or 1 City with 20 Settlements	60~ Estimated Slaves: 15~18	12.5%	5 Units

I think everyone understands this, but you aren't explaining where you think the imbalance comes from. Just stating the game mechanics doesn't help us understand what your problem with them is.

 

[nikkythegreat]

You get the chance to survive by having the 4 Base Units.

A 24.5% makes a City State, which can get as much as 50 Pops, have as many as 11 or 12 Units.

But if you start occupying a random territory, like you normally do, you suddenly lose half your Units in the Levy.

Compare a Tribe with 12.5% Levy Ratio with 20 plots of land and 60 Pops. It's likely they have around 18 Slaves, so only 42 non-Slave Pops can contribute to Levies. The result is 5 Units.

A City-State with just 40 Pops gets 7 Units.

A non-Tribe Republic of Monarchy with 3 or so Territories, like Argos, with 50 or so Pops, would likely have around just 5 to 6 Slave. But the next threshold is 48 after 40 due to 12.5% Levy %, so the result is also 5 Units.

Monarchies have 17.5% if you just switch to the 10% levy size law (Military Service) which is advisable this may be done right off the start of the game. While usually decentralized tribes need time to get to -100% centralization to gain. Most decentralized tribes start at -10% decentralization this means you get 19% Levy size which is only 8% larger than monarchies. Yes some tribes start with -50% but this only gives them 22.5% which is a 28% advantage. Monarchies have better laws and start with tech.

By the time you get that -100% decentralization monarchies would be around tech 4 by then. Plus tribal levies are also a bit chaotic with how clan chiefs work with levies.

This is how I look at it: Monarchies are better at game start even with 17.5% Levy size than the 20% of decentralized tribes.

But Mid game tribes would be stronger when they reach their power spike when they get -100% decentralization but it wears off when Republics and monarchies gain tech.

Then when you reach around 100-150% years into the game Monarchies would be stronger with proper tech and legion buffs.



Average City State does not start with 50 pops but something like 10-15 ish. A player would be better off turning that city state into a regional power rather than sticking with being a city state.

 

[master_kong]

Why negative centralization gives levy modifier? Migratory tribes can raise migratory units anyway. We need a levy size modifier for all tribes I think.

 

[Spike05]

On the topic of levy size I posted a suggestion here, please give it a look and tell me what do you think!

(small) Military rework

Hi fellows senators, I'm here to propose a motion to increase fun by playing small tags, without removing the intended actual (im)balance. As always my suggestion as kept as simple as possible and could be integrated in the game by the devs with...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Doldenberg]

I seriously don't get the point here.

So if you're a migratory tribe that somehow also has the civilization value cap to have a 50 capacity city and decide to move all your tribesmen into that one city, you get 10 Levies. Maybe 12. Which is 5-6k units. Which is also the maximum you will ever have with that strategy.
I can get that and much more by just playing any other state in a normal way, so I don't see the issue here.

Then you mention that a tribe would need more pops than a city state to get the same amount of Levies. Which is correct, but once again, how many times does the issue of "60 pop tribe vs. 40 pop city state" come up in the game? And as you said, the moment that city state expands, it s levies are reduced.