Levels of vassalage

[unmerged(11796)]

I was wondering would it be possible to implement different levels of vassalage in the game. I don't know how the economic issue will be resolved in EU3, and will it be something like that in EU2, but whatever it turns out to be, it should be flexible enough to allow for this option. Some countries de facto owned others, although de iure, the country in question was independent. So this should be the highest level of vassalage: Overlord controls economy, diplomacy, development, army, resource manipulation, appoints governers, and so on. Next level should be divided into two different types of vassalage, one where you control military issues, and nothing else, and other where you control infrastructural issues but not the military. The lowest level would be only slight control of diplomacy, economy and so on. When a vassalage is to be enstablished there should be different variable options besides the general level which should be adjustible. For instance: a vassal is obligated to provide 1,000 soldiers every decade or so, or it must adopt some of the overlords politics...

This might be too complex to implement, but it is historicaly accurate (although naming historical accuracy is a lowsy exscuse for not having a better argument). I am not a historian, and know a little about it, but I can tell you what little I know about Croatia. Croatia was part of the Habsburg monarchy, but mentained certain levels of autonomy. The parliment was active (though not at all times), a "ban" (duke or so) was elected, and certain aspects of infrastructure was managed at this level. On the other side, diplomacy was handeled from Vienna, taxes were paid to Vienna, and a number of soldiers was sent every year to Austrian army. I don't think this could be acurately simulated with just one level of unadjustable vassalage.

Please feel free to comment.

 

[unmerged(30040)]

Mostly a good idea.

 

[Registered]

Different levels of vassalge would be a very, very, good thing.

 

[Kevyinus]

I think three levels should surfice. I would like the HoI ideas of puppet/ militarily controlled etc (no nesessarily puppet but you know what i mean).

Three levels would be.

Low Vasselage - Part of the nation but independant (Dependant on you)

Medium Vasselage - Able to build infrastructure etc (Highly dependant on you)

High Vasselage - Control everything, 'a puppet' (Economically and militarily merged with you, just 'independant' on map)

Remember there cant be too many levels, simplicity

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well vassalage is a fairly defined thing, just as say, a tributary state is.

So i think this thread is a bit off the mark, but not nessarily bad ideas.

 

[unmerged(53986)]

Two would suit.

1. Total domination of every aspect
2. Like it is in EU2, except better army/dip control

 

[Registered]

Well vassalage is a fairly defined thing, just as say, a tributary state is.

Not really, Muscovy was a vassal of the Khans, but they had quite a bit of freedom in their own actions. In other cases the vassal was totally dominated by it's liege, leaving it no room for an own foreign policy.
It's just that, if i have just made a country my vassal by military means, i do not expect it to then give military acces to my enemies. That should no be possible without giving me the opppurtunity to intervene.
In case of looser vassalage the vasal would merely have to pay an annual tribute but otherwise be left to it's own devices.

 

[unmerged(53986)]

hmm, tribute payer would be good to have.. so that one can go out and make the china empire like its emperors where deluded to think it was like
In explanation, the whole world paying tribute..

 

[King of Men]

How about several aspects of vassalage, each independent? We could have

Yearly tribute
Maintain regiment
Foreign policy
Domestic policy
Military control
Mil-access
One-way trade agreement (like TAs in EU2, but the overlord is allowed to compete out vassal merchants)

A state could have any or all of these aspects of vassalage; so Muscovy would only pay tribute to the GH, England's Indian vassals have foreign policy and trade rights, Norway under Sweden has everything but foreign policy, and so on.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Sounds good to me king of Men nothing I can think to add.

 

[Registered]

hmm, tribute payer would be good to have.. so that one can go out and make the china empire like its emperors where deluded to think it was like
In explanation, the whole world paying tribute..

EUII vassals already pay tribute, it's really the only use they have, apart from being annexed.

 

[wilcoxchar]

I think KoM's idea is good, but it might be a little too complex. I think three levels would be good. Maybe have:

Economic control

one-way trade agreement
yearly tribute​

Political control

foreign policy
domestic policy​

Military control

military access (maybe for all vassals instead?)
manpower bonus
new diplo option, assume military control as in HOI​

 

[unmerged(2456)]

How about several aspects of vassalage, each independent? We could have

Yearly tribute
Maintain regiment
Foreign policy
Domestic policy
Military control
Mil-access
One-way trade agreement (like TAs in EU2, but the overlord is allowed to compete out vassal merchants)

A state could have any or all of these aspects of vassalage; so Muscovy would only pay tribute to the GH, England's Indian vassals have foreign policy and trade rights, Norway under Sweden has everything but foreign policy, and so on.

Military Access should be split. It should be Port Access and Land Access.

I also don't like the last one as that would become very exploitive and essentially cripple beyond repair any nation that needs them to survive. The other ones hinder, but don't essentially break the back of a vassal like this one would.

 

[unmerged(55118)]

I like the vassalage system how it is.

 

[Gogog]

I very much like the differnent options.

I think it would add alot to war and diplomacy... adding cbs zones of influence ect.

 

[Rythin]

I think KoM's idea is good, but it might be a little too complex. I think three levels would be good. Maybe have:

Economic control

one-way trade agreement
yearly tribute​

Political control

foreign policy
domestic policy​

Military control

military access (maybe for all vassals instead?)
manpower bonus
new diplo option, assume military control as in HOI​

Second that!

 

[Shadow Knight]

Military Access should be split. It should be Port Access and Land Access.

I also don't like the last one as that would become very exploitive and essentially cripple beyond repair any nation that needs them to survive. The other ones hinder, but don't essentially break the back of a vassal like this one would.

I second that, naval access needs to be different than land access.

 

[unmerged(53986)]

EUII vassals already pay tribute, it's really the only use they have, apart from being annexed.

That, and manpower.

But the idea of this thread is to divide up the various aspects of vassalhood, and repackage into 2 or 3 packages that gives us what we want.

Like, tribute paying for say 20 years or castille-aragon or spain-habsburg or the danube principalities dependancy upon ottomans.
Because the same model is far too crude for a really immersive gaming expirience, too many flaws..

 

[unmerged(25822)]

My idea :
Protactorates that can not have diplomatic relations and are annexable anytime , we choose their religion too (as Ottomans i create a muslim albania to deal with the catholic albanians and not having to deal with their wrong culture )we can built staf in their soil and we do their trade, they dont pay tribunes becouse the taxcollectors are ours. They can not brake vassalage no matter what and do not own an army

Shaddow countries that can trade and build staf on their own, they can also colonize, the are not annexable anytime but they can not declare war or have any diplo-relations and also pay tribune.They can declare indepedance but we choose how much army they are allowed to have if any.

Vassals with the today meaning of the term.

Tribune payers that just pay tribune and share maps , they need our permition to get in any allience.

2 first can not reach that state through diplomacy they can only be created in our soil from any province(s) we want

2 last can not be annexed

(i realy need to make an excell sheet on that !)

 

[unmerged(11796)]

I think KoM's idea is good, but it might be a little too complex. I think three levels would be good. Maybe have:

Economic control

one-way trade agreement
yearly tribute​

Political control

foreign policy
domestic policy​

Military control

military access (maybe for all vassals instead?)
manpower bonus
new diplo option, assume military control as in HOI​

This is a good Idea, but i'm not sure i understand it corectly, these would be 3 different areas, and would be independet, like an overlord could have economic control + political control, right? Well if that would be the case, I second that, but I still think that it would be best to implement, on a different level, a form of tribute system. Whatever the level of vassalage, you, as an overlord, could demand annual tribute in gold or in soldiers, and so on. So your "economic control" might better be somethin like "trade control", meaning the vassal is in your sphere of influence, and is not allowed to trade beyond.

On the other hand, my idea was to make levels of vassalage, more or less, a quantitative continuum, with a few adjustable options (sth. like KoM's idea), to make it qualitatively different. In other words, level indicate the strenght of connection between the overlord and a vassal, and these extra options allow you to qualitatively adjust the connection as you see fit.