Let's talk AI

[klingonadmiral]

A picture says more than thousand wors, so here's a picture with some added words:

Playing as someone who isn't one of the big ... 15 or so is incredibly frustrating. In this war alone:

Austria decided that it was of utmost importance to disable the unquestionable lynchpin of the hostile alliance, mighty Moldavia, parking their entire 25k stack in Bessarabia while the Poles and Bohemians and Hohenzollerns (by the time of the pic peaced out) immediately all marched north to help their Rigan allies which I stackwiped at the beginning of the conflict. The Hungarians on the other hand were actually useful and helped my fight off the slavic tide. But then they as well scattered in the winds, while the Polish alliance ruthlessly hunted down my army and stackwiped it, ignoring forts left and right.

And the absolute stretegical stupidity of the AI isn't new either:

This picture is dated June 11th 2015. The AI hasn't gotten a single bit better since then.

 

[grommile]

Pictures say nothing.

Bug reports with attached save files say something.

 

[Shock360]

They are probably in a tough war so are attempting to take out the weakest people one at a time so they can manage it

 

[grommile]

They are probably in a tough war so are attempting to take out the weakest people one at a time so they can manage it

Indeed.

This principle doesn't work when the weakest links are vassals, though

 

[klingonadmiral]

They are probably in a tough war so are attempting to take out the weakest people one at a time so they can manage it

That's not how war in EU4 works. In a close war like this one you would try to snipe capirals of hostile co-belligerents to force them out of the war. If the Ai knew this simply tactics Austria and Hungary maybe would have down what they should have done, gank Bohemia and siege down Prague so they can be peaced out and remove a large chunk of the foe's power from the field. You can't take out vassals.

 

[schondetta]

Yeah that's frustrating. They only play well when they oppose you never when they are fighting with you. I experience it all the time. I take it in account when deciding if I should declare or not

 

[oothal]

I played a game yesterday as Netherlands, my ally France started a war with Spain. Nothing to wrong with that, except France parked 50K troops on one of their provinces while Spain and her allies trashed both France and my little Netherlands. All the time those 50K troops just sitting there taking attrition. lol Far too many times seen the my AI allies jump between two provinces not knowing which one to siege or just milling about not bothering to siege or attack anything.

 

[Shock360]

That's not how war in EU4 works. In a close war like this one you would try to snipe capirals of hostile co-belligerents to force them out of the war. If the Ai knew this simply tactics Austria and Hungary maybe would have down what they should have done, gank Bohemia and siege down Prague so they can be peaced out and remove a large chunk of the foe's power from the field. You can't take out vassals.

Oh, didn't see the vassal part. In guessing they didn't out modifiers in for vassals to determine who to siege

 

[klingonadmiral]

Oh look: More AI shenanigans!

Yeah, let's park all troops in Sundgau with no-one giving you acess while taking a bunch a Venetian provinces. But what did I expect, it's my last ally after all. Whoopsie.

Makes one wonder, why is it always allied Ai that's on the level of a braindead chimpanzee?

 

[bbqftw]

I don't know, I'd be pretty pissed at the player for not loaning nor having any troops during a war like this.

Especially I suspect if the AI declared on you.

Also, where did the AI stackwipe you? pretty sure that fort configuration only defends that province between marienburg and konigsberg.

 

[klingonadmiral]

I don't know, I'd be pretty pissed at the player for no loaning nor having any troops during a war like this.

I. GOT. STACKWIPED. BECAUSE. ALL. THE. POLES. AND: CZECHS. PILED. ON. MY. TROOPS. WHILE. MY. ALLIES. WERE. RUNNING. CIRCLES. IN. HUNGARY.

That's not too difficult for you to understand, I hope.

Also, where did the AI stackwipe you? pretty sure that fort configuration only defends that province between marienburg and konigsberg.

retreated to Greifswald (my westernmost provinces, from there my troops retreated back to Prussia were they ran right into a hostile stack.

I mean, if the player could afford any forts whatsoever I would have built more.

 

[mergele]

Also, where did the AI stackwipe you? pretty sure that fort configuration only defends that province between marienburg and konigsberg.

Also the one northwest of marienburg.

Back to topic. I have kind of noticed this myself. Especially small armies suiciding into large enemy ones for no apparent reason.

 

[DDRJake]

Samegames where the AI is performing far from your expectations will go a long way to helping us deal with the issues which are often very complex. Being able to load your save game and see it in action will help our AI programmer @Gnivom fix them, whereas screenshots sadly will not.

 

[raikaria]

I'm pretty sure that the AI is cheating to a degree now as well.

I tried a couple of things:

Playing Korchin. Jianzhao DoW'ed Korea while my maintenance is down because otherwise I'm running a deficit. I am on my capital; and Korea cannot see it. I don't want to fight this war anyway.

Korea's army rushes mine [And of course; their general is high maneuver] and stackwipes it; despite it being impossible for them to know it was there on low maint.

I know the AI has Fog of War cheats but it also shouldn't act like that with them.

The other time; same situation. I backstab Jain this time however since my start was stringer and I didn't need them to fend off Oirat. Jain and Korea fight for 5 years.

I DoW Jain the instant truce ends. Jain immediately white peaces out Korera; and suddenly has 21,000 manpower [Near max]. Despite being at war and fighting Korean troops for 5 years.

The AI in general seems a lot smarter now as well. But now it looks like it cheats on manpower as well now... or maybe Jain used nothing but mercs for 5 years?

I'm gonna be paying close attention to AI manpower now...

 

[TenshiN]

Oh look, people butthurting at AI not being able to match their EPIC SKILLZ. It was doing that in every videogame humankind ever designed (and will probably stay so for quite a while), so why did it only start recently?

 

[grommile]

Oh look, people butthurting at AI not being able to match their EPIC SKILLZ. It was doing that in every videogame humankind ever designed (and will probably stay so for quite a while), so why did it only start recently?

There is a difference between "the AI is doing things that are reasonable to do, but result in failure because of limitations in the AI's model of the world" and "the AI is doing things that are not reasonable to do and result in catastrophic failure".

(And people have been swearing at the bizarre antics of strategy game AIs for a very long time.)

 

[TenshiN]

There is a difference between "the AI is doing things that are reasonable to do, but result in failure because of limitations in the AI's model of the world" and "the AI is doing things that are not reasonable to do and result in catastrophic failure".

(And people have been swearing at the bizarre antics of strategy game AIs for a very long time.)

True that.

AI's are either programmed to deal with other AI's effectively, or to do so with the player, whose playstyle is different in 90% of the cases. I guess in this case, it is the latter. Also, you yourself know that EU4 is quite a complex game, and behaving reasonably in all situations, besides difficulties in writing the code, is that it will probably lag horribly on most modern machines. That's been said, i also want the AI to be better, i just don't understand why people get so uppity about it.

And not to mention you can already avoid most of the AI stupidity by "attach to" sheningans and splitting your stacks so it will actually attach.

 

[Basterbane]

Spoiler

Oh look: More AI shenanigans!

Yeah, let's park all troops in Sundgau with no-one giving you acess while taking a bunch a Venetian provinces. But what did I expect, it's my last ally after all. Whoopsie.

Makes one wonder, why is it always allied Ai that's on the level of a braindead chimpanzee?

So I guess Arumba was into something when he said that military access should be removed. His idea was to have free access everywhere and incur relation penalty for trespassing into non-friendly or non-ally territories. Maybe instead of relation penalties the armies trespassing would have tiny bit higher maintenance or one would pay a 1-2% of their maintenance as fee from passing.

Free access would improve the whole condottieri renting by not having to deal with access rights across whole world.

 

[grommile]

That's been said, i also want the AI to be better, i just don't understand why people get so uppity about it.

Because they're angry about the AI losing wars it should win - especially when the AI in question is their ally, and the war in question is their war.

 

[Muki13]

Because they're angry about the AI losing wars it should win - especially when the AI in question is their ally, and the war in question is their war.

This mirrors real life quite well. Imagine what good things had Wilhelm II and Hitler say about their allies. So I think the game is telling us quite clearly on who they think the player represents in this game.