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General WVPM

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please no more regions, india is worse enough
it is just sitting there slowing down my game and doing nothing.
an isolated island nation with many wars of it's own doesn't fit in CK2 which is meant to be about the bloody crusades and not about the tribal invasions, the fall of the romans, the karlings nor the far east.
i fear they'll release some weird halfbaked renaisance expansion soon adding africa and the americas.
just concentrate on europe and the muslim world, thats plenty of work and enjoyment.
the far east deserves a place in the grand strategy, but not in ck2.
 
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aitaituo

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Daimyo should be vassals of the shogun. In fact, shogun loosely translates as 'general', so why shouldn't he command all the military? I know that leaves the emperor virtually powerless, but isn't that what happened? If an imperial restoration occurs, which a player emperor should be able to speed along, then the emperor no longer legitimizes the current shogun, which means that he de-jure no longer rules anything but his own lands. When a restoration occurs all but the most loyal to the shogun should rally behind the emperor's champion.

The legal basis of the Shogunate was indeed that the Shogun was the commander of all the samurai and since the Samurai had come to hold nearly all land in Japan, he was the de facto ruler.
 

Will Steel

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Let me give you some details.

HOW HISTORICAL JAPAN WAS BEFORE 1185:


Japan, in the Nara Period (710-794) and Heian Period for a long time (794-1185) almost completely followed the organized model of the Tang Dynasty of the Chinese Empire. They even had a formal constitution-type document that set how the system was to work, and made it permanent.

Emperor was considered the central figure of the entire system, called Ritsuryo. In this time, Japanese emperors actually wielded power and participated in state affairs.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Second came the Daijo-kan, or the Council of State. This was the actual executive office and main organ of government, the top-most and highest rank after the Imperial Yamato Dynasty. Although beneath the Emperors they wielded more power than him. There was a Prime Minister/Chancellor/Chief Minister and under him there were 3 major councillors and 3 top-level ministries. Beneath that came the second level of Daijo-kan, consisting of 8 ministries, including one that managed the Imperial Dynasty's affairs.

Daijo-kan was frequently monopolized by Fujiwara family who occupied a majority of posts, and misuse of power for their own favour became frequent. The system started breaking down by the time of Hogen and Heiji Disturbances, and it lost all power after the Genpei War and with the beginning of the Kamakura Shogunate. All those ministries and the entire Daijo-kan were turned into honorary ceremonial titles with no power at all. This was to remain the case until 1868.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Running parallel to the Daijo-kan was the Jingi-kan or the Department of Worship. This state organ governed all the religious affairs in Japan as opposed to normal secular government of Daijo-kan which governed the state. The Jingi-kan was the one under which most ceremonial rites and rituals were performed. It was also responsible for setting regulations on rites and rituals, codifying them to some extent where possible. It was also responsible for constructing and maintaining temples and monasteries, holy sites and such.

Historically, Jingi-kan remained the only thing from the Heian era still functional under the Shogunates, and the rest of the Imperial Palace fell into ruin. And then it too was dismantled when Tokugawa Shogunate came into power. This resulted in no one being left to manage religious affairs, and the rise of independent monastic factions and such.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Aside from that, as the part of Ritsuryo, Japan was divided into provinces. This came fully under the Daijo-kan and as a result, it too was sometimes monopolized by Fujiwara and the other three great families (Minamoto, Taira, Tachibana). And similarly, the whole provincial government was turned into a ceremonial structure with no power at all, alongside Daijo-kan, by the Shoguns. The Shogunate kept the provinces and borders, but they were now instead ruled by military governors, who then turned into hereditary military warlords under the Hojo Regency. Hence you see the Daimyo. The old province governors were now merely a ceremonial title given away and taken back at whim of the feudal lords.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

A major part of this was the court rank system. The entire Japanese Imperial Court was divided into 30 ranks combined into 9 major classes, based on Tang government. The higher the rank and class, the higher the ministry you can run for and higher your paycheck. The system supposedly worked fine until 9th century, when Fujiwara monopolized the first 6 ranks for themselves and no one other than their dynasty could attain rank above 7. The other three great families did achieve this after excessive bribing sometimes, but very, very rarely.

This system was, like everything else, turned into ceremonial and useless system that remained almost completely vacant during the Shogunates. It had no use, the four great families were dead and their successors were feudal warlords or nobles, and had no taste or actual willingness to occupy those court ranks.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Finally come the castes. Unlike the Indian society which had 4 ranked castes and hundreds of subcastes in each of them, Japanese caste system was completely different. The entire Japanese society was divided into two castes, Ryomin (high citizens) and Senmin (low citizens). The Ryomin were the regular citizens, bureaucrats, officers, rich merchants, lots of urban-dwelling citizens and such. The Senmin were basically slaves and servants serving government officials and bureaucrats, tomb guards, Imperial Palace, market-bought slaves bounded to their masters and families (even commoner families) and such.

The Kunuhi (slaves) are the last two subcastes of the Senmin and are the slaves I mentioned. They were just like slaves in other societies that had slavery - Kunuhi were bought and sold like properties and had no families of their own. But there was one catch - the slaves could attain the rank of Kanko (public ministry servants and general public servants) at the age of 66 with the permission of their masters, thus becoming free (to an extent). If they managed to live on to the age of 76 (most Japanese did), the slaves automatically became free.

A Ryomin who committed many crimes in a row or a serious crime, would be forcibly demoted to a Senmin in the Kanko rank I mentioned above.

As much as I know of Japanese history after so much research, Ryomin and Senmin were not allowed to marry each other, like the forbidden inter-caste marriage system of India. But in some cases where Ryomin DID marry a Senmin, the child born out of the marriage would be a Senmin and not a Ryomin.

Unlike Indian society, Japanese didn't have a separate clergy caste. Priests were Ryomin and could be Senmin. The caste system didn't always apply to Buddhists, similar to India where Buddhists didn't have a caste system at all.

HOW JAPAN CAN BE IN THE GAME:

So, as you see, to implement Japan before 1185 they'll have to do a major code rewrite.

Firstly, Ryomin would form the overwhelming majority of characters in the game. Except for lowborns and peasant rebels. The two castes would have opinion penalties against each other. Secondly, if a Ryomin character marries a Senmin, the child would be considered a Senmin. Also, if a Ryomin committs a crime, when imprisoned he can be demoted to Senmin Kanko rank. Perhaps by a decision similar to those about castrating and blinding for ERE.

Also, polygamy AND concubinage should be allowed for males, at the same time. Emperors and nobles had multiple wives and at the same time they also had lots of concubines, who were promoted to wives in case of favouratism, love, or death of wives or just for the sake of it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Secondly, they'll have to implement a full-scale bureaucracy system with court ranks. Characters would start out at low ranks and perform tasks (through events) to eventually gain ranks. When they reach the highest rank within their class, they will be promoted to the next class level.

As they attain higher ranks, more and better ministries will be open for them. Paradox will have to make a system that allows 'applying for ministry' or 'run for ministry'. If the application gets approved, your character will get the post. If not, well, try again after some time. This would depend upon your rank, prestige, relations with the ministers and councillors, and the Imperial favour.

This makes for a heavy court intrigue that symbolized Japan from 710 to 1185. There would be lots of rumour spreading, nepotism, favouratism, rivalries and battle for courts. Eventually some characters will field private armies and hire goons and they may use this to fight or assassinate/murder rivals. This is where feudalism comes in.

All ministries and posts should have tasks, skills and events related to them. So a finance minister could embezzle money or an honest one could work hard to enrich Imperial treasury. A court poet with poor learning attributes would be disgraced or even outright fired.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

For religion, Buddhism would start out very small in southwestern parts of Japan, and eventually gain favour. They could have special mechanics about founding monasteries and sects. Some of them would be militant, and either fight against feudal lords or serve under them under certain conditions. Just like Holy Orders we have right now.

Jingi-kan would be like Papacy. It would appoint all the priests in Shinto temples and monasteries just like how Papacy decides who will be the next Bishop somewhere. Prominent monks and priests could gain special favour from Jingi-kan and can request money (just like Papacy) or new courtiers.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Militarily, Heian and Nara periods are remembered as peaceful and prosperous times. Other than Ainu Emishi tribes to the north, there wasn't much fighting. But they should allow private armies/retinues to nobles because all the four great families fielded them in one way or another. They spread them out on their manorial estates as private guards to keep them secluded from public view, but in the end they could wield large armies of up to 80,000 easily given their wealth and power.

This is what eventually made the system break down. Nobles started fighting against each other for power when dynastic intrigue by marriage and assassinations was not bringing enough results.

It was in this time that the Samurai started to appear. Originally intended to fight the northern barbarians, they were instead employed by the noblemen as privately-funded troops. Eventually they grew in size to the point where the nobles eventually formed huge armies and overthrew the government and took parts of Japan for themselves to rule as feudal lords. Just as I said above.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Honestly, they can make Sengoku 2 with Gempei War start date if they implement this system. And once they do that, it will be a baby's cakewalk to make China of any era from Qin onwards. :D

I will define how Japan after 1185 is going to work in a new post soon. Shogunate era had big differences in every aspect from Heian era.
 
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duelistgamer

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The whole emperor being a descendant of Amaterasu story getting so big was because of the Meiji government who wanted to do some nation building. In fact, all old Japanese clans who came about around the same time as the Yamato clan have similar stories of them being descendants of gods, but you never hear them because they didn't contribute to the nation building. Also, the Japanese started recording history of the empire just like the Chinese did because they -expected- a dynastic cycle to set in, but it just never did. Shinto wasn't a religion on its own before the Meiji period either. It was completely mixed in with Buddhism. Again, the Meiji government used what is now Shintoism as a part of their nation building, since Shintoism has the benefit of being uniquely Japanese and it enabled them to give the emperor the highest position (which Christianity, for example, wouldn't have because that would put God above all).

All in all, the emperor was a respected person and source of legitimacy during shogunates and Fujiwara regencies, and very early on the de-facto ruler, but not regarded as a god-emperor father of the nation until the Meiji period.

That is from the perspective of the peasants. However, the elite obviously knew about these legends and they knew that the emperor had been ruling from a continuous lineage. I was also basing everything on my readings from the kojiki and the nihon shoki. I actually haven't heard of records being kept with the expectation of dynastic cycles. I know Shinto wasn't a monolithic religion on it's own like the Western religions. However, just like for Hinduism, from the game's perspective a compromise has to be made. While Buddhism and Shinto were mostly blended together and disorganized, keeping them fully independent of a higher power simply does not make sense. This is because of the emperor's nominal divinity. Buddhist monasteries/temples (not sure what they're called) definitely existed alongside shrines. Maybe make it a new tile exclusive to Shinto buddhist monasteries to provide mercenary souhei troops?

I also didn't mean that the Emperor was a god-Emperor. I meant that he had a degree of divinity accorded to him, and the spiritual well-being of Japan was his responsibility. That's why I think he should be the nominal religious head. Maybe make it voluntary, and shrine heads could pay tribute gifts?

The Taika reforms, which were an attempt to simulate the Chinese emperor, made all of Japan the emperor's personal lands. He then started renting it out so that people would invest in turning it into farmland, and when that didn't get enough people enthusiastic the ownership of the land was made hereditary. Unless you are saying that the emperor didn't have direct control over those lands, in which case I agree with you, but those land owners weren't autonomous and they still were underneath the emperor (they didn't have armies, either, they were just nobles). Emperor Daigo and emperor Uda are exceptions to the trend that the imperial court was dominated by the Fujiwara during the Heian period. It should be possible for an emperor in game to break away from a regency, but it should not be easy.

The Taika Reform happened way before the period we're dealing with. You're 150 years too late. The lords of the shouen did have some military power by the time we reach 793 (because of changes that occurred in 792), which was also the last year of the Nara period. The Fujiwara controlled the lands of Kyoto and had their own army. There were also other military clans.

This is something that should be a mechanic. The relationship between the emperor and the various clans. The system should nominally give power to the emperor, him being the source of legitimacy, but a system of influence and communication should put the clans vying to manipulate the emperor to fulfil their motives. For instance, the earliest start period would put the Fujiwara in the position of highest influence, and give them a lot of power. In fact I'm toying with the idea that the emperor should actually be unplayable. Crown authority being low would reflect this.

I meant that the title should be the title which encompasses all of Japan de-jure (excluding Hokkaido). The emperor has a duchy-level title like the Fylkirate. When the emperor title and the Japan title are held by the same person, the emperor effectively rules Japan (unless regents). When the emperor doesn't hold the Japan title but another Japanese does, it turns into a shogunate and the emperor is able to be restored.

I don't like this system because the Emperor was the sovereign.

I agree that agnatic would work and be completely reasonable, seeing how inheritance works in the game. There is no rule that the emperor marries a Fujiwara, but looking at the history it is either a Fujiwara or a member of another powerful clan, like the one who is current shogun.

Yeah so this should play into the influence and regency mechanic.

What do you mean by moving up the hierarchy in the traditional way? If there are no cadet branches, the Minamoto, the Taira and god knows how many clans will all be of the emperor's dynasty. A succession law for the emperor that allows him or his regent to choose a member of his dynasty when there is no male child would work to keep the title in the family.

I meant in the context of dynastic succession. Because if you were the emperor and some jackass from another branch was your heir, the game's existing mechanics would make it game over for you. Obviously the existing cadet branches should be represented, with a trait to keep track of descendants of Amaterasu. I just want the clan system to be there, because of the 25 recorded branches, they were divided into two clans. Just having familial lines alone without some sort of clubbing going on doesn't really work IMO.

Clans are multiple families, but that's not what I mean. There is a hierarchy of vassals when it comes to samurai, it's just not always as obvious because samurai, as opposed to European nobles, did not have to hold land. So I can be a retainer who happens to hold land of a daimyo who has sworn loyalty to the shogun. That would place me beneath the daimyo, who is placed beneath the shogun.

Clans should only compete for influence over the emperor if there is no shogunate. And I do think distance should be a large factor in this. If you are a lord who holds a ton of land in Kyushu, then you're not going to be able to influence the emperor nearly as much as an imperial courtier who resides in Kyoto.

Daimyo should be vassals of the shogun. In fact, shogun loosely translates as 'general', so why shouldn't he command all the military? I know that leaves the emperor virtually powerless, but isn't that what happened? If an imperial restoration occurs, which a player emperor should be able to speed along, then the emperor no longer legitimizes the current shogun, which means that he de-jure no longer rules anything but his own lands. When a restoration occurs all but the most loyal to the shogun should rally behind the emperor's champion.

Ah, now I understand what you mean.

Hmm. I do know that women could run away to a temple and become nuns, thus making their marriage obsolete. There's a temple in present-day Kamakura which is famous for having a lot of women flee to it. Also, I think what you say would make for an interesting mechanic. Of course, the wife's intrigue, opinion and traits would need to factor into this.

Yeah the woman I'm referring to did end up as a nun after this, being placed in a monastery by her father.

I don't know, the book we used in college says that it was the Nara period in which the imperial retinues were disbanded except for a small garrison on the borders. Samurai then started policing for higher ups and eventually organized into small armies at the end of the Heian period. It was a very gradual process

They were disbanded completely in the very beginning of the heian period, when Kammu decided that the samurai troops were just way better than his crappy imperial troops.

Anyway, the samurai underwent a lot of change. The class wasn't properly defined until just before the Edo-period and anyone could be a samurai really. The samurai at the end of the game, just before the Sengoku period, are vastly different from the samurai during the Genpei war. I don't remember there being formal contracts of who had to provide troops for who. It was just a matter of who you wanted to serve, that's why I think a the tribal mechanic would work best.

There were no samurai before the Kamakura, really. There were just many different precursors.

Thing is though, that there was no formal distinction between what is now Shinto and Buddhism. This distinction was made in the Meiji period. A lot of kami were also Buddhas or Bodhisattvas and vice versa. Amaterasu = Dainichi = Vairocana. But what we would now call Shinto priests didn't hold any ground, only Buddhist temples did, and the emperor was not the head of Shinto (still isn't, actually) so Shinto priests paying him tax would be odd.

Yeah, maybe we can skip the taxes, but the emperor's divinity needs to be portrayed like I said before.
 

Simmy93

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A google search about this subject to find clarity brought me the wisdom of Christ,

mqcw5.jpg
 
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Let me give you some details.

HOW HISTORICAL JAPAN WAS BEFORE 1185:


Japan, in the Nara Period (710-794) and Heian Period for a long time (794-1185) almost completely followed the organized model of the Tang Dynasty of the Chinese Empire. They even had a formal constitution-type document that set how the system was to work, and made it permanent.

Emperor was considered the central figure of the entire system, called Ritsuryo. In this time, Japanese emperors actually wielded power and participated in state affairs.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Second came the Daijo-kan, or the Council of State. This was the actual executive office and main organ of government, the top-most and highest rank after the Imperial Yamato Dynasty. Although beneath the Emperors they wielded more power than him. There was a Prime Minister/Chancellor/Chief Minister and under him there were 3 major councillors and 3 top-level ministries. Beneath that came the second level of Daijo-kan, consisting of 8 ministries, including one that managed the Imperial Dynasty's affairs.

Daijo-kan was frequently monopolized by Fujiwara family who occupied a majority of posts, and misuse of power for their own favour became frequent. The system started breaking down by the time of Hogen and Heiji Disturbances, and it lost all power after the Genpei War and with the beginning of the Kamakura Shogunate. All those ministries and the entire Daijo-kan were turned into honorary ceremonial titles with no power at all. This was to remain the case until 1868.

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Running parallel to the Daijo-kan was the Jingi-kan or the Department of Worship. This state organ governed all the religious affairs in Japan as opposed to normal secular government of Daijo-kan which governed the state. The Jingi-kan was the one under which most ceremonial rites and rituals were performed. It was also responsible for setting regulations on rites and rituals, codifying them to some extent where possible. It was also responsible for constructing and maintaining temples and monasteries, holy sites and such.

Historically, Jingi-kan remained the only thing from the Heian era still functional under the Shogunates, and the rest of the Imperial Palace fell into ruin. And then it too was dismantled when Tokugawa Shogunate came into power. This resulted in no one being left to manage religious affairs, and the rise of independent monastic factions and such.

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Aside from that, as the part of Ritsuryo, Japan was divided into provinces. This came fully under the Daijo-kan and as a result, it too was sometimes monopolized by Fujiwara and the other three great families (Minamoto, Taira, Tachibana). And similarly, the whole provincial government was turned into a ceremonial structure with no power at all, alongside Daijo-kan, by the Shoguns. The Shogunate kept the provinces and borders, but they were now instead ruled by military governors, who then turned into hereditary military warlords under the Hojo Regency. Hence you see the Daimyo. The old province governors were now merely a ceremonial title given away and taken back at whim of the feudal lords.

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A major part of this was the court rank system. The entire Japanese Imperial Court was divided into 30 ranks combined into 9 major classes, based on Tang government. The higher the rank and class, the higher the ministry you can run for and higher your paycheck. The system supposedly worked fine until 9th century, when Fujiwara monopolized the first 6 ranks for themselves and no one other than their dynasty could attain rank above 7. The other three great families did achieve this after excessive bribing sometimes, but very, very rarely.

This system was, like everything else, turned into ceremonial and useless system that remained almost completely vacant during the Shogunates. It had no use, the four great families were dead and their successors were feudal warlords or nobles, and had no taste or actual willingness to occupy those court ranks.

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Finally come the castes. Unlike the Indian society which had 4 ranked castes and hundreds of subcastes in each of them, Japanese caste system was completely different. The entire Japanese society was divided into two castes, Ryomin (high citizens) and Senmin (low citizens). The Ryomin were the regular citizens, bureaucrats, officers, rich merchants, lots of urban-dwelling citizens and such. The Senmin were basically slaves and servants serving government officials and bureaucrats, tomb guards, Imperial Palace, market-bought slaves bounded to their masters and families (even commoner families) and such.

The Kunuhi (slaves) are the last two subcastes of the Senmin and are the slaves I mentioned. They were just like slaves in other societies that had slavery - Kunuhi were bought and sold like properties and had no families of their own. But there was one catch - the slaves could attain the rank of Kanko (public ministry servants and general public servants) at the age of 66 with the permission of their masters, thus becoming free (to an extent). If they managed to live on to the age of 76 (most Japanese did), the slaves automatically became free.

A Ryomin who committed many crimes in a row or a serious crime, would be forcibly demoted to a Senmin in the Kanko rank I mentioned above.

As much as I know of Japanese history after so much research, Ryomin and Senmin were not allowed to marry each other, like the forbidden inter-caste marriage system of India. But in some cases where Ryomin DID marry a Senmin, the child born out of the marriage would be a Senmin and not a Ryomin.

Unlike Indian society, Japanese didn't have a separate clergy caste. Priests were Ryomin and could be Senmin. The caste system didn't always apply to Buddhists, similar to India where Buddhists didn't have a caste system at all.

HOW JAPAN CAN BE IN THE GAME:

So, as you see, to implement Japan before 1185 they'll have to do a major code rewrite.

Firstly, Ryomin would form the overwhelming majority of characters in the game. Except for lowborns and peasant rebels. The two castes would have opinion penalties against each other. Secondly, if a Ryomin character marries a Senmin, the child would be considered a Senmin. Also, if a Ryomin committs a crime, when imprisoned he can be demoted to Senmin Kanko rank. Perhaps by a decision similar to those about castrating and blinding for ERE.

Also, polygamy AND concubinage should be allowed for males, at the same time. Emperors and nobles had multiple wives and at the same time they also had lots of concubines, who were promoted to wives in case of favouratism, love, or death of wives or just for the sake of it.

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Secondly, they'll have to implement a full-scale bureaucracy system with court ranks. Characters would start out at low ranks and perform tasks (through events) to eventually gain ranks. When they reach the highest rank within their class, they will be promoted to the next class level.

As they attain higher ranks, more and better ministries will be open for them. Paradox will have to make a system that allows 'applying for ministry' or 'run for ministry'. If the application gets approved, your character will get the post. If not, well, try again after some time. This would depend upon your rank, prestige, relations with the ministers and councillors, and the Imperial favour.

This makes for a heavy court intrigue that symbolized Japan from 710 to 1185. There would be lots of rumour spreading, nepotism, favouratism, rivalries and battle for courts. Eventually some characters will field private armies and hire goons and they may use this to fight or assassinate/murder rivals. This is where feudalism comes in.

All ministries and posts should have tasks, skills and events related to them. So a finance minister could embezzle money or an honest one could work hard to enrich Imperial treasury. A court poet with poor learning attributes would be disgraced or even outright fired.

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For religion, Buddhism would start out very small in southwestern parts of Japan, and eventually gain favour. They could have special mechanics about founding monasteries and sects. Some of them would be militant, and either fight against feudal lords or serve under them under certain conditions. Just like Holy Orders we have right now.

Jingi-kan would be like Papacy. It would appoint all the priests in Shinto temples and monasteries just like how Papacy decides who will be the next Bishop somewhere. Prominent monks and priests could gain special favour from Jingi-kan and can request money (just like Papacy) or new courtiers.

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Militarily, Heian and Nara periods are remembered as peaceful and prosperous times. Other than Ainu Emishi tribes to the north, there wasn't much fighting. But they should allow private armies/retinues to nobles because all the four great families fielded them in one way or another. They spread them out on their manorial estates as private guards to keep them secluded from public view, but in the end they could wield large armies of up to 80,000 easily given their wealth and power.

This is what eventually made the system break down. Nobles started fighting against each other for power when dynastic intrigue by marriage and assassinations was not bringing enough results.

It was in this time that the Samurai started to appear. Originally intended to fight the northern barbarians, they were instead employed by the noblemen as privately-funded troops. Eventually they grew in size to the point where the nobles eventually formed huge armies and overthrew the government and took parts of Japan for themselves to rule as feudal lords. Just as I said above.

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Honestly, they can make Sengoku 2 with Gempei War start date if they implement this system. And once they do that, it will be a baby's cakewalk to make China of any era from Qin onwards. :D

I will define how Japan after 1185 is going to work in a new post soon. Shogunate era had big differences in every aspect from Heian era.

I think that even lowborn characters should be ryomin, or at least some of them.

Also, how would you model the fact that all those ranks of the Japanese bureaucracy gradually turned hereditary over the course of the late Nara and Heian (which is the early game)?
 

Woifee

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Japan in this timeframe would cover a lot of phases. As far as I know in the early dates the shogunate doesn't exist.

So one system won't be enough.
 

Will Steel

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I think that even lowborn characters should be ryomin, or at least some of them.

Also, how would you model the fact that all those ranks of the Japanese bureaucracy gradually turned hereditary over the course of the late Nara and Heian (which is the early game)?

Actually, I am suggesting they make a whole new game. CK2 has many limitations since it was developed based on Europe modeled on Frankish feudalism.

And yes, many Ryomin would be 'lowborn' in CK2 terms.
 
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General WVPM

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Actually, I am suggesting they make a whole new game. CK2 has many limitations since it was developed based on Europe modeled on Frankish feudalism.

And yes, many Ryomin would be 'lowborn' in CK2 terms.
totally agree
 
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