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StJimmyRocks92

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We have plenty of discussions about China floating around the forum, and of course the topic has come up a few times in them. However, I haven't seen any posts specifically about it, and since I really want to play there I thought I would start it. So let's talk about Japan.

From what I gather, 1185 was the beginning of feudalism in Japan, and prior to that it was an empire. Was there anything special about how their empire worked that would need new mechanics introduced? Also, a Japanese expansion may be a good time for Paradox to consider some expansion to the naval system. Attrition and combat could both be added to help keep Japan historically independent. Are there other special mechanics that Japan would require?

Also, I know this is probably a pointless request, but could we try to keep this thread clear of "no more map extensions" comments? I just want to get an idea of what the community thinks would be required to do Japan justice in the game if/when it's added.
 
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deadhand13

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Apart from redrawing the map, I think Japan would probably be easier to add in than China. The main mechanic that hits me, which you already mentioned, is the need for naval combat and possibly some sort of general expansion to the combat system in general (no specific ideas...). Does anybody know if Japanese armies were mostly composed of peasant levies like in Europe?

Also, the intrigue system would need some work. Because ninjas. I went there.

And diplomacy. We would also need more inter-state diplomacy to model Japan's relations with, most notably, China. Basically an Emperor swearing oaths to another Emperor. Game doesn't really do that right now.
 
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icedt729

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It probably wouldn't take as much work as China for it to work out well. The most important thing is that the Emperor could either be the sovereign of a more bureaucratic state, or the figurehead of a militarized one. There was a brief imperial restoration during the late-game period (Kenmu Restoration, 1333-1336) so under a weak Shogun there should be an attempt to put the imperial house back into a position of power. This could probably be done by making the Emperor a caliph-type figure who may or may not actually hold the title "empire of Japan," which would localize into a bakufu when held by someone other than the emperor himself, and adding a set of events that might automatically change some crown laws and the like in case of an imperial restoration.

Adding Japan might also, ironically, be a great time to add in cadet branches, because the early nobles (Minamoto, Taira, Fujiwara, etc) were all cadet branches of the imperial clan and many subsequent samurai families were, at least nominally, cadets of one of those three original warrior houses.

Other than that, the early start dates should have the Japanese/Yamato fighting the indigenous Emishi for control of northern Honshu. They'd need their own pagan religion but are probably best modelled as a tribal people.
 
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Noxatrox

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Well with Horse Lord's expanding the map into Central Asia, many people suspect that the whole thing is just to prepare the game to include China as well. Of course, just adding China would not be enough; they would have to add Indo-China and Korea as well. And from there, the next logical step would be to include Japan! After that, I'm not really sure what else they would add to CKII's map. Maybe North America to play as Eskimo Kings? I'd wager some money on an expansion focusing on the inclusion of Mars as well.

Joking aside, the major Japanese event that I can think of during this time period would have been the Genpei Wars, which saw the fall of the Taira clan, the rise of the samurai, and the establishment of the first shogunate, the Kamakura, under Minamoto no Yoritomo. But the things that most people imagine when picturing feudal Japan, samurai dueling one another, daimyos leading their armies to clash in vast meadows, ninja running across castle walls under the cover of the night, etc., are all scenes from the Sengoku period, which sadly all took place just outside of CKII's timeline.

I'm no expert on Japanese history, however, and I'm sure those that are could think of some more interesting events. The Heian period is the name for the years from 794-1185, and could work for the earlier timelines. The failed Mongol invasion of Japan is another thing that took place in this time period as well.

There would definitely need to be a new government type to reflect Japan's unique Shognate system. Shinto would need to be added to the game as a religion as well.
 

icedt729

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The Problem is they tried this with Sengoku, and as far as I know it doesn't have much in the way of love.
To be fair, that's because Sengoku only had a fraction of the content and gameplay options that CK2 has. There's a reason why Sengoku's most dedicated modder packed up and ported his entire project to CK2 once he got the chance- besides the fact that Sengoku has nice Japanese art assets, CK2 is superior in almost every conceivable way.

I'm no expert on Japanese history, however, and I'm sure those that are could think of some more interesting events. The Heian period is the name for the years from 794-1185, and could work for the earlier timelines. The failed Mongol invasion of Japan is another thing that took place in this time period as well.

There would definitely need to be a new government type to reflect Japan's unique Shognate system. Shinto would need to be added to the game as a religion as well.
The lame part is that even the Onin War (earliest stage of the Sengoku Jidai) is just barely too late to make it into CK2. I think the most interesting parts would definitely be the Yamato-Emishi wars, the Gempei war, the Mongol invasions and the Genmu Restoration, but that at least gives a decent spread of start dates with something worthwhile going on.

Regarding religion, Shinto didn't really exist as an organized faith until the 19th century. In this time period Buddhism was by far the most influential religion and Confucianism was the most influential ideology. Buddhist temples were large and politically powerful- Shinto shrines were not. I think there might be something to making Japan a separate religious branch within whatever the East Asian group is called, but it really shouldn't be defined as a Shinto country. Maybe Shinbutsu (Shinto-Buddhist syncretism) is passable.
 
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Japan would be very fun. It would kind of be like a secluded ERE. Starting as a unified imperial power like China then slowly devolving into feudalism and a mess of internal conflicts. Sadly it would be extremely Irratating to hit the end date and have to change over to much less representative EU4 mechanics just as the going gets good.

Apart from redrawing the map, I think Japan would probably be easier to add in than China. The main mechanic that hits me, which you already mentioned, is the need for naval combat and possibly some sort of general expansion to the combat system in general (no specific ideas...). Does anybody know if Japanese armies were mostly composed of peasant levies like in Europe?
As I understand it they were fairly similar but the big difference was that before the attempted mongol invasion they didn't really fight as coherent units. Mostly because they were only fighting themselves and the Ainu. If Japan was added they'd need some pretty awesome Kamikaze events to turn back those mongols.

Also, the intrigue system would need some work. Because ninjas. I went there.
I hear they weren't that amazing or any specialer than their European spy counterparts. Mostly some local informants.

And diplomacy. We would also need more inter-state diplomacy to model Japan's relations with, most notably, China. Basically an Emperor swearing oaths to another Emperor. Game doesn't really do that right now.
Interesting but basically just a nominal thing. Paradox doesn't really care about the small intricacies of the past that didn't actually have much of an effect on anything.
 
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Teonod

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A very simple model could be:

The Empire-tier title would be the Shogunate of Japan. The Empire of Japan is a Duke-tier title identical to that of the Caliph/Fylkyr, it would also not be based upon family name. (so that it won't be called the Yamato Empire).

In the earlier starts, the Emperor would hold both the Shogunate and the (ducal) Empire, this would much like the Caliphates, call the Shogunate "Empire of Japan".

Later when Shoguns start appearing, the Emperor becomes a ducal vassal to the "clan-name" Shogunate.

Pre-feudal Japan would have ducal Viceroys.

Feudal Japan would have normal Dukes.

Other titles of course.
 

aitaituo

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Aunel

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Japan in the earliest start date would be in the Nara period, which historically lasted until 794. At that time, Japan was still looking for a definite way to shape itself. It had a system which was one the hand very much like that of China but on the other hand traces of Japanese aristocracy were still present. At this time, heavy contact with China was maintained. As early as 723 a law was passed that said that anyone who invested in creating new farmland would own said farmland for three generations. In 743, when the former law didn't get enough people to invest, it was changed so that anyone who invested would hold the land indefinitely. And guess who had the most money. Yes, that's right, the aristocrats and the temples. This reform was in stark contrast to the Taika reforms which modeled the Japanese government more on the system the Chinese used.

Army-wise, the Japanese had a system which, similarly to the Chinese, required each family to provide on soldier for so many years or pay a tax. By 774 the Emishi would still conduct regular raids, particularly in the Kantou region, but the rest of the tribes had been pacified. Since the imperial court was located in Nara (same as present day Nara) they abolished their military system and only kept it in the border provinces which stood to benefit from a permanent garrison. By 804, the Emishi had been subjugated.

Politically, there were three factions vying for control. The emperor (and the imperial family), the aristocracy and the temples. Eventually the aristocracy (Fujiwara) won this game of court intrigue and came to dominate politics in Japan.

Historically the next period in Japanese history is the Heian period, which is after the capital was moved to Heian (present day Kyouto). Formal contacts with the Chinese were severed, although there was still interaction between the two countries through trade, piracy and scholars. The Heian period is usually seen as the period of Japanese court culture, with many famous works of writing, think Genji Monogatari, coming from this period. These works were, notably, written in Japanese rather than in Chinese. The bureaucratic ranks and institutions that were introduced with the Taika reforms continued to exist, but getting a high rank didn't mean an increase in power and income, it rather confirmed that power that an aristocrat already had at his birth. As said before, this period was largely dominated by the Fujiwara. The head of the family would marry their daughters to emperors so that the Fujiwara head would be the grandfather of the next emperor, and due to the Confucian ideology the emperor thus had to listen to the head of the Fujiwara. Also, the Fujiwara would be the regent of an underage emperor most of the time, and later on they even managed to remain regents for the rest of their lives (talk about long lasting regencies). There was resistance to this, and some emperor did manage to temporarily rule on their own, but this never lasted. At the same time, the growth of the private farmland went on and this in turn caused powerful landlords to appear.

Army-wise, the armies of the Nara period had been abolished and lower nobles who had undergone training with weapons in their own time acted as police in this time period. These are early samurai, but the fact that they were of low rank and lacked any real organisation meant that they had no power. It should be noted, by the way, that Japanese nobles at this time were not expected to be able to fight, as was the case in Europe. At the end of the ninth century, these warriors started forming small coalitions. By 935, these coalitions had grown considerably in size and some were able to field a thousand riders. Leaders of these coalitions also rebelled, and one, Taira no Masakado (not of the famous Taira family), even proclaimed himself emperor. The armies of the actual emperor consisted mostly of the same type of warriors, with the only difference being that these armies were led by high ranking nobles who held actual titles. By the eleventh century, two warrior families had risen to the forefront. These were both descendants of the Imperial line and were called, as you probably guessed, the Taira and the Minamoto. Both of these families supported an emperor during the Genpei war (1156-1192), a civil war between the Taira and the Minamoto. It should be noted that samurai in these times were nobles first, and warriors second. Eventually the Minamoto won, the first shougnate was created and the de-facto capital moved to Kamakura. After this, Japan is feudal.

All of this information is taken from Keizers en Shogun (Emperors and Shogun) by W.J. Boot.


So as for mechanics... Seeing how Japan is heavily reliant on Chinese systems in the earlier periods, it might be a good idea to add China first and then make Japan a sort of hybrid, with decisions or events slowly forcing Japan to the feudal side.

The problem Japan faces from a gameplay perspective is that it's not so much that the ruling family changes, but that the entire system changes. While it would be fun to play emperor in the Nara period, by the time the Kamakura period comes around the position would have been marginalized so much you wouldn't be able to do anything. The same goes for the Fujiwara which are only really influential in the Heian period, and the samurai don't become truly influential until the eleventh century.

As for the Mongol invasions, remember that it were the storms who destroyed those Mongol boats, twice. The Japanese, however, were woefully unprepared for an organized Mongol invasion and would probably have been utterly crushed if it weren't for those storms.
 
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Well if China is added Japan is without doubt following suit. There's nothing hard about it.

Also, I know this is probably a pointless request, but could we try to keep this thread clear of "no more map extensions" comments? I just want to get an idea of what the community thinks would be required to do Japan justice in the game if/when it's added.
That's not pointless but a bit of a weird request. People are going to say what they want to say. They can also use their stance to explain why any expansion, including China and Japan, is a pretty bad idea. I feel like that would add to the conversation.
 
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Nyrael

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It's a single nation. It's not significant enough to get its' own expansion. It would most likely be included along with China and Korea.

So? This is not EU, this is CK where you can play as vassals and governors (also, China too would be mostly one nation and be probably less decentralized).
With that said, the Emperor's authority is weakening so playing with him would be harder than playing any other top ruler in CK2.

Which failed...

It didn't fail because of Japan though, but because the game was lacking and PI did not try to improve on it. In general, only Europe and Rome sell better than Japan so Japan is a better setting than most.