Let's talk about individualist ethos

[Garfazz Steamfang]

Hey guys!
It's my first thread here so please be kind. I'm also not native speaker so they might be some grammatical isues.
I have just open this thread for talk about individualist ethos. I'm not talking about communism or democraties here but about the nature of the individualist ethos. How do you see it?
I mean how can a specie reach FTL state without being collectivist and putting all the existing governements and nations in one planetary government that contain all nations of the planet united behind one banner?
Think about earth and remind yourselves Mass Effect. There is the interstellar alliance that is the human governement created when all human nations was united behind one banner for speaking for all humanity in galactic politic and decisions. They are collectivist, humanity was united behind one banner that has put all his efforts and ressources in one cause: reach FTL and take importance in galactic state and decisions. If all earth nations have remain alone they can't put all they ressources in spacial navigation and reach FLT technology, being divided by money power,nations deviances and rivalry.

So here is my question: how do you think an individualist species has reach the FTL state without planetary unity? How do you see the individualist ethos in the game? Do you think collectivism is necessary to reach FLT state?

Thanks for your participation.

 

[Tototoine]

Individualism is not about nations at all. It's about giving individuals the priority over the state, like in our modern-day liberal democracy.

 

[cold warpgates]

In mass effect the separate nations of earth still exist, they just fund the alliance to be a unified military force and to arbitrate colonial disputes.

Being individualist doesn't mean "never work together" or "always oppose political unions" any more than being collectivist means "individuals have no rights whatsoever". It just means that at times when the interests of the collective and individual conflict, an individualist society will tend to favor the individual.

 

[Tiaexz]

You are completely misunderstanding what Individualist represents.

Virtually every nation on Earth is varying degrees of 'Individualist' with extremely rare exceptions because it is how we evolved physiologically, psychologically, and society-wise as a species. Collectivism as depicted in the game is a trait found in other species, such as Ants and other Hive species.

 

[thescythianking]

we have the international space station currently which is funded by multiple nations. if all nations decided to invest in some giant FTL project and work together then i think it could work while they retain the individuality. I also feel that you don't have to be collectivist to FTL you just need motivation. In human terms we work together towards a common goal at times but we retain our individuality.

 

[Hull-Tanker]

Individualism is in Stellaris a system where the right of the individual is glorified.

The US is the hallmark of a modern individualist state and looking at the technological advancments of the US and other western style democracies Individualism obviously has nothing to do with a nations capability to produce or use resources.

 

[Held der Arbeit]

One could also make a case that in an individualistic society you would see large private corporations taking to the stars, rather than a centralised government effort (or even a world government)

Technically, a truly united species isn't required for FTL. You could still have a lot of the population living in relative poverty/backwardsness as long as one entity amasses enough cash & resources to go for it.
This is actually the most likely route for humanity. Right now you have big corporations (with more budget than small nations) looking into asteroid mining (which will make them even richer, if they succeed) while billions of people are living in simple huts, barely able to contribute

 

[Sapidianus]

Individualism is in Stellaris a system where the right of the individual is glorified.

The US is the hallmark of a modern individualist state and looking at the technological advancments of the US and other western style democracies Individualism obviously has nothing to do with a nations capability to produce or use resources.

Modern humans are neutral on individualist/collectivist scale, because while we protect rights of individuals in some areas we restrict them for the good of the state in other (Remember Patriot Act for example. Even ban on smoking in public places is collectivistic, because it limits individual freedom to smoke in order to protect the health of members of society in general).

 

[Fossa]

How about a fanatical spiritual race and research? One could argue since their opposites, materialists, gets a bonus to research the spiritualists are opposed to research.

 

[barny]

So here is my question: how do you think an individualist species has reach the FTL state without planetary unity? How do you see the individualist ethos in the game? Do you think collectivism is necessary to reach FLT state?

Thanks for your participation.

Honestly I would argue the opposite: How can a collectivist society ever reach a state of higher development?

If you look back on human history it were generally individualists, people that were thinking outside the box, outside the norm and sometimes even outside the law, that made important discoveries.

Also competition was generally what drove research and development forward the most. Even during the cold war the Soviets kept up or even surpassed the US (at least for a time) in the areas both countries stood in direct competition (space programs, military research and so on).

Modern humans are neutral on individualist/collectivist scale, because while we protect rights of individuals in some areas we restrict them for the good of the state in other (remember Patriot Act for example).

"modern humans" is a bit too general here. Most western states are clearly on the individualist side, while other countries are more on the collectivist side (China, North Korea).

 

[Sapidianus]

If you look back on human history it were generally individualists, people that were thinking outside the box, outside the norm and sometimes even outside the law, that made important discoveries.

I think that collectivism in stellaris doesnt mean that you have to obey the state, but that you put needs of your society before your own.

 

[barny]

I think that collectivism in stellaris doesnt mean that you have to obey the state, but that you put needs of your society before your own.

Considering that individualism gets a massive research bonus (last we know at least), I would beg to differ.

 

[Sapidianus]

Considering that individualism gets a massive research bonus (last we know at least), I would beg to differ.

Nope:
http://www.stellariswiki.com/Ethos
Materialists get research bonus while individualists get energy (money) bonus, representing free trade.

 

[Sapidianus]

"modern humans" is a bit too general here. Most western states are clearly on the individualist side, while other countries are more on the collectivist side (China, North Korea).

I disagree, because western countries have numerous restrictions put on individual rights for the good of the society (smoking ban, affirmative action, patriot act, etc), while those "collectivist" states you mentioned have members of elite breaking laws, embezzling money and enjoying superior individual rights. Accodring to stellaris wiki, collectivists are truly equal and evolved past the insignificant rivalries and concerns of the individuals. In a collectivist society chairman or beloved leader wouldn't live in luxury that other people cant afford.

 

[barny]

Nope:
http://www.stellariswiki.com/Ethos
Materialists get research bonus while individualists get energy (money) bonus, representing free trade.

Ah, my bad. I mixed the two up, because those were the ones, I wanted to choose for my first playthrough.

I still think that individualism also means to strengthen the rights of the individual, this would also mean, that opinions and theories outside the "norm" will get oppressed or the whole social system will prevent individuals from thinking outside of the box in the first place.

 

[Aquilegia]

...
If you look back on human history it were generally individualists, people that were thinking outside the box, outside the norm and sometimes even outside the law, that made important discoveries...

Ehhhh.. you might want to read up about scientific and technological history.

 

[Ezumiyr]

The best way I found to think about individualism/collectivism in Stellaris is Star Trek's need of the few/need of the many.But people tend to not like that because they think that individualism means "liberalism" and collectivism "communism" even if the devs already said that it was wrong to think so.

Just like spiritualists are not necessarily brain-less fanatics, and materialists are not good pragmatic guys. Materialists just value more physical possessions (or their representation as money), while spiritualists believe that there is something more important to achieve in life (that eventually leads to happiness).

 

[Yenzen]

You are completely misunderstanding what Individualist represents.

Virtually every nation on Earth is varying degrees of 'Individualist' with extremely rare exceptions because it is how we evolved physiologically, psychologically, and society-wise as a species. Collectivism as depicted in the game is a trait found in other species, such as Ants and other Hive species.

I've posted this elsewhere, but I've come to view us as neutral on the matter.

When we form absolute monarchies, the autocrats have to keep expending resources to keep down the ascendant ruling class from usurping too much power. When we form democracies, we have to keep fighting for it and our individual rights to avoid becoming oligarchies.

Overall I would say that we have a natural tendency towards oligarchy. It comes easy to us to simply let those concerned with power fight among themselves, even if we're the victims of it.

 

[barny]

I disagree, because western countries have numerous restrictions put on individual rights for the good of the society (smoking ban, affirmative action, patriot act, etc), while those "collectivist" states you mentioned have members of elite breaking laws, embezzling money and enjoying superior individual rights. Accodring to stellaris wiki, collectivists are truly equal and evolved past the insignificant rivalries and concerns of the individuals. In a collectivist society chairman or beloved leader wouldn't live in luxury that other people cant afford.

That doesn't mean western societies aren't individualistic. Smoking bans for example don't infringe the individual right of a person to smoke, they restore the individual right of a person NOT having to inhale poisonous smoke. Collectivism means individuals have no rights and their leaders can sacrifice thousands or even millions, if it serves the nation or the planet, for example. There are no human rights here, no save guards towards the power of the government and so on.

 

[Wulfram]

The individualist/collectivist axis is too incoherent to take seriously in anything but the most abstract terms, I think.