Let's talk about Chinese technological inferiority.

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Chronicler

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If I remember right didn't Japan quickly militarize in the 16th century after getting help from Portugal? Modernization of military units could be an event. Such as better ships, rifles and so on. (According to what I read anyhow)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Japan#Sengoku_Period_.281467.E2.80.931603.29

"The arquebus was introduced to Japan in 1543, by Portuguese on board a Chinese ship that crashed upon the tiny island of Tanegashima in the southernmost parts of the Japanese archipelago. Though their introduction was not seen to have particularly dramatic effects for several decades, by the 1560s, thousands of gunpowder weapons were in use in Japan, and began to have revolutionary effects upon Japanese battle tactics and strategies, army compositions, and castle architecture."
 

Chronicler

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I just find it odd that China is sharing the same tech penalty as sub-Saharans... I might be wrong and will be open to enlightenment if mistaken but does anyone really think that the technological advances of the Chinese were tantamount to that of Kongo or Mali?

+1 on this comment

I also found this very weird in EU3 that they were so similar or close
 

Chronicler

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Europeans greatest advantage was seldom tech but the ability to use the diplomatic situation in the area to their advantage.

I would say the tech helped at the point where they had modern weaponry against spears ;)
 

Denkt

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If I remember right didn't Japan quickly militarize in the 16th century after getting help from Portugal? Modernization of military units could be an event. Such as better ships, rifles and so on. (According to what I read anyhow)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Japan#Sengoku_Period_.281467.E2.80.931603.29

"The arquebus was introduced to Japan in 1543, by Portuguese on board a Chinese ship that crashed upon the tiny island of Tanegashima in the southernmost parts of the Japanese archipelago. Though their introduction was not seen to have particularly dramatic effects for several decades, by the 1560s, thousands of gunpowder weapons were in use in Japan, and began to have revolutionary effects upon Japanese battle tactics and strategies, army compositions, and castle architecture."

I have heard that Japan around the invasion of Korea opperated the largest gunpowder force in the world with over 100000 gunpowder soldiers armed with guns of the same quality as europe.
However their navy had little chance against the 30 cannons the korean ships carried, who also could outurn Japanese and European ships, so neither europe or Japan would be able to invade Korea sucessful in 1500.
 

Homero

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Indian nations were virtually powerless against colonial powers in the early 1500s,
Well, in sea conflicts... remember the geostrategic impact of the battle of Diu (1509),transforming the so-called Muslim Lake into a Portuguese mare clausum for over 100 years.
In the words of Oliveira Martins "...because the Indians, meditating and observing, recognized that the Portuguese phalanx was not only invincible to them; it was also for the Egyptians and the Venetian artillery".

When it comes to land conflicts... the answer is no. That's the reason why Francisco de Almeida had a vision of hegemony based on naval power and wanted to avoid the traditional conquest model so as not suffer from "Alexander's maladies". Letter to the King:

"That all our power be on Sea, renouncing to arrogate the land. The old traditions of conquest, the dominion on so distant kings is not suitable.... what we want are the products of India, our maritime empire will assure the monopoly against the Turk and Venetian. Let's demand heavy taxes, exaggerate the price of licences for the Moorish ships to navigate the seas of India and this will banish them. Let's have fortresses along the coastline, but only to protect the trading posts, because their true safety will be in the friendship of the indigenous rajahs placed by us in their thrones, defended by our navy. Let's substitute the Turk so as not to suffer from the Alexander's maladies"

... while it is true that Europeans did have a naval advantage over the Chinese by 1633 (it is not obvious that this was the case in 1444, but let us allow it)
Indeed.
Beginning in 1623-1630 the Ming armed forces acquired capability in the northeast of using Portuguese firearms and cannons to defend their main garrisons and to attack enemy positions.
After the fall of Guangning, Sun Yuanhua proposed equipping a Chinese force with Portuguese cannons in order to defend the garrisons in the Northeast.
In 1623 Portuguese cannoniers came north from Macao, and European cannons were acquired and put in use beyond the Great Wall by leading commanders like Sun Chengzong and Yuan Chonghuan.
In 1630, two hundred Macaonese cannoniers were hired as mercenaries and sent to Dengzhou under Gonçalves Teixeira. Father João Rodrigues went on to Dengzhou where he taught Sun Yuanhua and Geng Zhongming how to make and use the new artillery.
Portuguese mercenary troops under Nicolau Ferreira fought at the siege of Guilin in 1647.
In fact, the Chinese had no skill in the handling of artillery. Bocarro, 16th century historian, orientalist,
"...where therefore they rely on the Portuguese in this respect". (recommended reading, Charles Boxer, Macao Three Hundred Years Ago, p 305)
 

anomanderus

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I would note that Ming begins the game with the coast of East Africa explored, unlike other East Asian nations and that is clearly meant to represent the discoveries of Zheng He.

The series' called "Europa Universalis" because it's based on a board game with the same name.

Which has that name because the game centers around the Great Divergence, which is an actual historical thing which happened and is the reason that for the past 500 years the West and Westerners have been dominant globally.

In lobbying for a better China, let's not forget that European dominance in game is not a product of "Eurocentrism" but because in actual history the Europeans went on to rule the planet.
 

deezee

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Well, in sea conflicts... remember the geostrategic impact of the battle of Diu (1509),transforming the so-called Muslim Lake into a Portuguese mare clausum for over 100 years.
In the words of Oliveira Martins "...because the Indians, meditating and observing, recognized that the Portuguese phalanx was not only invincible to them; it was also for the Egyptians and the Venetian artillery".

When it comes to land conflicts... the answer is no. That's the reason why Francisco de Almeida had a vision of hegemony based on naval power and wanted to avoid the traditional conquest model so as not suffer from "Alexander's maladies". Letter to the King:

"That all our power be on Sea, renouncing to arrogate the land. The old traditions of conquest, the dominion on so distant kings is not suitable.... what we want are the products of India, our maritime empire will assure the monopoly against the Turk and Venetian. Let's demand heavy taxes, exaggerate the price of licences for the Moorish ships to navigate the seas of India and this will banish them. Let's have fortresses along the coastline, but only to protect the trading posts, because their true safety will be in the friendship of the indigenous rajahs placed by us in their thrones, defended by our navy. Let's substitute the Turk so as not to suffer from the Alexander's maladies"

One must remember though that the narrative of Europe's rise to dominance was not as straightforward as many make it out to be. While Portugal dominated the Arabian Sea in the years following the battle of Diu, and would take over many of the Muslim East African states, it would in turn lose most of those territories to Muslim Oman by the end of the period covered by the game, with their expulsion from Zanzibar in 1698 being the most severe reversal; the region would remain ruled by Omani Arabs until the Scramble for Africa at the end of the 19th century. History is not as simple as "Europe is ascendent, and the rest of the world declines relatively". Even during the time periods when Europe's technological rise was most unambigious, the supposed "dying" states of Asia would often adapt, either by studying European technologies or by playing the European states against each other.
It is worth recalling that the Ottomans survived intact until 1918, and while they had certainly declined from their peak, there were still a power on a level comparable to Italy or possibly even Austria-Hungary, while Japan, China, and Persia survived intact to the modern day. The Mughal Empire was the only one of Asia's great empires which would see its core territories fall to colonial Europeans, but it collapsed before rather than because of the rise of European colonialism. Indeed, many historians (although this is by no means a consensus position) argue that the collapse of the Mughals was actually the impetus for the transformation of Europeans from traders to colonists in Asia, as Britain and France fought to defend their trade interests in the power vacuum that ensued.

Which has that name because the game centers around the Great Divergence, which is an actual historical thing which happened and is the reason that for the past 500 years the West and Westerners have been dominant globally.

In lobbying for a better China, let's not forget that European dominance in game is not a product of "Eurocentrism" but because in actual history the Europeans went on to rule the planet.

While it is true that Europeans went on to "rule the planet", it is outside of the frame of the game. At the time of the end of the game in 1815, Europeans held major colonial holdings only in India (which they had moved into after the Mughals collapsed) and the Americas; Europe was clearly ascendent, but it would not be able to effortlessly dominate over Asian states until the late 19th century, which is in the realm of Victoria 2 rather than this game. The Great Divergence was without doubt an "actual historical thing", as you put it, but the EU4 time frame only saw its beginnings; by some estimates (these numbers are admittedly hard to accurately obtain) Europe's GDP per capita would not surpass those of China and India until the end of the 1700s, and it is unambigiously true that the resources commanded by European states would not exceed those controlled by the much larger Asian states until the 19th century.
 

Denkt

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Portugal and Spain also declined alot from their rise in the early parts of the game, later they became maybe only second rate powers compared to nations like Great Britannia and France.

In the game however they seldom don't because with power they gain even more power, and keep snowballing, but Spain losing its armada and Portugal losing against Morocco both in the end of the 16 century ment the end of their domiance and start of their decline, this will basiclly never happen in the game.
 
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Agoria

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I have heard that Japan around the invasion of Korea opperated the largest gunpowder force in the world with over 100000 gunpowder soldiers armed with guns of the same quality as europe.
However their navy had little chance against the 30 cannons the korean ships carried, who also could outurn Japanese and European ships, so neither europe or Japan would be able to invade Korea sucessful in 1500.
The number of canons is not the only criteria that determines a ship efficiency in sea battles. Anyway the Portuguese already had large ships in that era even if they may not have used them in Asia at this time.
 
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Denkt

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The number of canons is not the only criteria that determines a ship efficiency in sea battles. Anyway the Portuguese already had large ships in that era even if they may not have used them in Asia at this time.

Portugal had larger ship but larger ship don't mean better ships, I don't think Portugal had great ship for Korean waters anyway, espacially consider how different they are.
 

anomanderus

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Portugal and Spain also declined alot from their rise in the early parts of the game, later they became maybe only second rate powers compared to nations like Great Britannia and France.

In the game however they seldom don't because with power they gain even more power, and keep snowballing, but Spain losing its armada and Portugal losing against Morocco both in the end of the 16 century ment the end of their domiance and start of their decline, this will basiclly never happen in the game.

For Portugal that was because of competition with the Netherlands, which also rose and declined during the period as did Sweden. I would say the next DLC to EUIV needs to expand the economic management in game, since it was economic decline which caused these nations to decline on the world stage rather than being conquered.

Spain's downfall didn't happen as a result of losing colonies but instead as a result of inflation and kings who were not competent enough to handle it. Inflation is currently solved by using administrative power and inflation causes increases in costs- maybe if your inflation is very high then you should start getting stability hits and increased wages for soldiers and ships, which would essentially result in you being unable to afford a military that fills out your force limits to the max and thus reducing your military capabilities in spite of having the manpower to be powerful.
 

rayyuri

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Problems which China encountered at that period are too difficult for this game to simulate. Paradox doesn't want China to be too strong, so they have to nerf China in some other ways.

However, I do think that making Chinese techgroup the worst (except the native Americans) is really too much in this patch. Native people in north America didn't even know how to build houses in 1444, but they are far more easier to westernize compared to any asian countries in the game.
 

Denkt

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Problems which China encountered at that period are too difficult for this game to simulate. Paradox doesn't want China to be too strong, so they have to nerf China in some other ways.

However, I do think that making Chinese techgroup the worst (except the native Americans) is really too much in this patch. Native people in north America didn't even know how to build houses in 1444, but they are far more easier to westernize compared to any asian countries in the game.

Native americans did acctually put up some kind of resistance against europeans into 1800.
I would not say they are easy to westerinze becuase they have to pay the most point (5000) to do so while the western nations have cb against them becuase of pagan religion.
 

PandaL

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I think the problem is that the current system implies some cultures being inferior by nature, while some will think it is more situational. If the game instead starts all/most old world cultures with the same tech speed, but gradually gives bonus/penalty to different culture through events, there will likely be less controversy.
 

toroltao

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Native americans did acctually put up some kind of resistance against europeans into 1800.
I would not say they are easy to westerinze becuase they have to pay the most point (5000) to do so while the western nations have cb against them becuase of pagan religion.

Ya but the Chinese were inventing gunpowder and using hand cannons by 1200AD, but in EU4 they start at 2/2/2 tech. That's worse than horde tech. Kind of weird.
 

Homero

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In 1580, an army of 18,000 Europeans and local Moorish allies were defeated by 60,000 - 100,000 Moroccans. .
60.000 Moroccans. The Portuguese army when it sailed in 1578 probably comprised 15,000 combatants. There were 2,000 troops from Castile, and contingents of foreign mercenaries- Italian, Irish Catholics, German Lutherans and Dutch Calvinists. There were plenty of pikemen and arquebusiers and a significant artillery component, but the army was relatively weak in light cavalry.

Weston F. Cook argues, "..In the end it was the skilful use of mounted arquebusiers that won the day for the Sadians" (The Hundred Years War for Morocco: Gunpowder and the Military Revolution in the Early Modern Muslim World, p 254).

A.R. Disney (North Africa. p. 21-24- excerpt) presented a detailed description- excerpt,

"The explanations for the defeat tend to focus on the personal mistakes of King Sebastião.
The army reached Tangier on 13 July ; it then went on in some confusion to Asilah, and there a council was held to decide how to move to al Arish ( by sea or land) After much heated debate Sebastião decided to take over the land route; as it proceeded conditions grew up unpleasantly hot, with temperatures soaring above forty degrees Celsius. Sebastião himself would eventually have water poured inside his armour in an attempt to keep cool. However, when the march began, Abd al-Malik was thought to be hundreds of kilometers away in Marrakesh, and no major action was yet expected. This was a fatal miscalculation, for in reality Sebastião delayed so long at Tangier and Asilah that the Sultan had been able to must and bring up his forces. As the Portuguese army stumbled across a scorching terrain it was watched and shadowed. Abd al -Malik chose the place and time to spring his trap carefully, waiting until the Portuguese were traversing open ground between the second creek ( the route involved fording two creeks and then crossing the river Loukkos north of Al-Ksar al -Kabir) and the Loukkos, and highly vulnerable to the Berber light cavalry.
Jerónimo de Mendonça, a participant who subsequently wrote a graphic account of the battle, singled out the king's long delays at Tangier and Asilah, allowing al-Malik to assemble its forces, as the crucial factor. However, the battle may be a more close-run than its often assumed.. For much of the battle the outcome remained in doubt, and Portugal's defeat was not inevitable."

While Portugal dominated the Arabian Sea in the years following the battle of Diu...
For the next eight decades the Portuguese dominated the Asian trade with Europe.The control over the international trade would last until the Dutch and English positioned themselves in some of the strategic Portuguese choke-points, between 1580 and 1665.
In Asia, the Portuguese confronted the powerful land empires of Persia, Mughal, India, Japan and China, states that Portugal´s armies could never hope to defeat. Thus, from the beginning of the expansion, to the end of the age of European expansion, the Portuguese had been restricted to coastal enclaves from which they sought to dominate the oceanic trade. In the Americas the Portuguese -and the Spaniards - obtained colonies where their military technology (and the old World diseases) gave them the ability to expand inland.

it would in turn lose most of those territories to Muslim Oman by the end of the period covered by the game, with their expulsion from Zanzibar in 1698 being the most severe reversal..."
Indeed. Nothing lasts forever...

History is not as simple as "Europe is ascendent, and the rest of the world declines relatively"
Well, it really happened. The facts remain that modern world history has been dominated by initiatives from Western Europe and culminated in the early Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, French and English overseas empires. No student of the world history can ignore or downplay these events.
Recommended reading: Why the West Rules- for Now",Ian Morris, p 431,
"The Portuguese blasted them into splinters...Like the Ottomans when they advanced into the Balkans a century earlier, rulers all around the Indian ocean rushed to copy European guns, only to learn that it took more than just cannons to outshoot them. They needed to import an entire military system, and transform the social order to make room for new kind of warriors"

Denkt
Portugal had larger ship but larger ship don't mean better ships
Well, the Portuguese crown developed one of the most effective fighting navies possessed by any contemporary European monarch, its only rival being that of Castile. Recommended readings,
"The Military Transformation of Early Modern Europe-1500 1800", Guilmartin,J.F,
"The navy of the House of Aviz was a pioneer in several respects and in the early sixteenth century it may have been the most advanced operational force of his kind...up to 1560"

Warfare at Sea, 1500-1650, Maritime Conflicts and the Transformation of Europe, Jan Glete
"The Portuguese navy...it is regarded as part of the Indian enterprise but it was also an Atlantic and European force. The navy of the House of Aviz was a pioneer in several respects and in the early 16th century it may have been the most advanced operational force of its kind...the first real Habsburg sailing navy was that of Portugal"

..I don't think Portugal had great ship for Korean waters
In fact, Portuguese ships were less impressive in the shallow waters near to shore. Portuguese amphibious warfare against coastal settlements was initially carried out by units of the Indo-Portuguese vessels, constructed in Portuguese shipyards in India (Goa, Daman and Baçaim) associating Portuguese technology to Indian native traits.

For Portugal that was because of competition with the Netherlands...
Portuguese historians argued that this reversal of fortunes was occasioned by the Spanish captivity; British historians argued that it was the corrupt nature of the administration; For Charles Boxer, the reason were "the superior economic resources , superior manpower, and superior firepower" of the Dutch; for Lies Steensgaard , a Danish historian, the entrance of the more advanced proto-capitalism of the English and Dutch into Asian trade doomed the monarchical monopolism of the Portuguese crown.

But a recent research has shown that during the last three decades of the 17th century, a significant rehabilitation took place in Asia. That the Estado da India was reduced in size in undeniable, but the Portuguese learned lessons from the Dutch and English (while the Dutch emulated some of the earlier practices of the Portuguese, but that's another story), and undertook political, military , economic and religious reforms between 1668-1677.
As Gerald Augier, the English Company President in Surat, notified his company directors in early 1674,
" The Portuguese Follow their trade as well in India as Europe vigorously..."
A remarkable turnaround from the chaos of the early 1660s: the loss of Cochin in 1663 is generally considered to have constituted the death knell for the Portuguese power in Asia. As the Jesuit M. Godinho wrote in that year: "if it was a giant, it is now a pigmy; if it were great, it is now nothing"
 

toroltao

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60.000 Moroccans. The Portuguese army when it sailed in 1578 probably comprised 15,000 combatants.

I think this just shows how ridiculous it is that you can ferry around 100k stacks on boats in this game.