Let's talk about Chinese technological inferiority.

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Lamahorse

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I'm all for indulging people's sense of quasi-historical nationalism.

It's hilarious to read post after post of people moaning that their respective countrymen in 1444 were flying around on hovercraft, whilst smoking tobacco out of their holes from their several hundred year previous mythical circumnavigation of the globe and composing fanciful tales to confuse their descendents into how fictional their exploits were. These mighty achievements were soon crushed by the whiteskins who rolled around and rewrote history to suit the narrative that their primative country was a backwater ripe for exploitation.
 

j4freeman

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No one said they had anything to do with China, the comments were in relation to your assertion that Europe wasn't capable of large-scale projection of force in Asia at the time. Additionally, the British victory at Trafalgar was in a large part due to weather favoring the types of ships the British were using over the bulkier Franco-Spanish ships. If we're going to exclusively limit our discussion to China, is there an issue to my Isolationist AI proposal? Insofar as I know, the Ming were capable of crushing other Asian nations with impunity, but generally had too many internal disputes/were too apathetic to do much of it. It seems like most of the issues could be mitigated by my above idea, as well as massively increasing the Ming land/naval forcelimits and manpower. I'm still not seeing anything that indicates the Ming or Qing were able to defeat European forces with anything other than incredibly favorable weather/defenses/etc on their side or overwhelming numbers.

I do agree that something needs to be done with the troop transport system though, it needs to be significantly harder than it currently is in the early game.
 

wingzero890

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No one said they had anything to do with China, the comments were in relation to your assertion that Europe wasn't capable of large-scale projection of force in Asia at the time. Additionally, the British victory at Trafalgar was in a large part due to weather favoring the types of ships the British were using over the bulkier Franco-Spanish ships. If we're going to exclusively limit our discussion to China, is there an issue to my Isolationist AI proposal? Insofar as I know, the Ming were capable of crushing other Asian nations with impunity, but generally had too many internal disputes/were too apathetic to do much of it. It seems like most of the issues could be mitigated by my above idea, as well as massively increasing the Ming land/naval forcelimits and manpower. I'm still not seeing anything that indicates the Ming or Qing were able to defeat European forces with anything other than incredibly favorable weather/defenses/etc on their side or overwhelming numbers.

I do agree that something needs to be done with the troop transport system though, it needs to be significantly harder than it currently is in the early game.

I think coding the Ming AI to be isolationist is a good idea, the vanilla game sort of has this with the AI personalities but there isn't enough done with it. Going off that, with no handicaps and full manpower the Ming would be able to field an army that makes sense for an empire of that size. Invading them as an Asian should be a death sentence if they aren't involved in a massive rebellion.

Of course, nothing is stopping someone from playing France/other major and loading up a fleet with 30k troops and sending them to China.

I'm all for indulging people's sense of quasi-historical nationalism.

It's hilarious to read post after post of people moaning that their respective countrymen in 1444 were flying around on hovercraft, whilst smoking tobacco out of their holes from their several hundred year previous mythical circumnavigation of the globe and composing fanciful tales to confuse their descendents into how fictional their exploits were. These mighty achievements were soon crushed by the whiteskins who rolled around and rewrote history to suit the narrative that their primative country was a backwater ripe for exploitation.

You mean like the Irish? :p
 

j4freeman

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It's really unfortunate that Paradox probably won't do any of the ideas here, something that essentially would make the different tech groups have entirely different mechanics to simulate the political/scientific/economic structures of their regions while being on the same map and interacting with each other would be pretty cool. "1 map: 12 (or however many groups there are) games"
 

ahyangyi

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I think coding the Ming AI to be isolationist is a good idea, the vanilla game sort of has this with the AI personalities but there isn't enough done with it. Going off that, with no handicaps and full manpower the Ming would be able to field an army that makes sense for an empire of that size. Invading them as an Asian should be a death sentence if they aren't involved in a massive rebellion.

Of course, nothing is stopping someone from playing France/other major and loading up a fleet with 30k troops and sending them to China.

You mean like the Irish? :p

I don't like it and I guess Wiz won't like it. Basically if Ming should suck as much as it did in history, it should be reflected by mechanism instead of a stupid AI.
 

Lamahorse

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Yes, as great as it would sound for some Hugh O'Neill figure to have united the warring chieftains and turned Ireland into a similar state as her European peers; we were just another backwater close to home where England trail ran her later American colonisation attempts.
 

j4freeman

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I don't like it and I guess Wiz won't like it. Basically if Ming should suck as much as it did in history, it should be reflected by mechanism instead of a stupid AI.

Can you give some examples as to how the Ming dynasty exhibited expansionist policies in the long term, or show that their armies were inferior to their contemporaries?
 

j4freeman

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You can make a nation non-expansionist in many many ways. Giving it a stupid AI is the worst among them.

But how is that inaccurate to the historical setting of the game? Isolationism isn't inherently stupid, even though it isn't helpful long-term. Many nations deemed it a good policy and adopted it accordingly. Do you have a better idea to achieve the results of the above proposals while being more historical?
 

ahyangyi

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But how is that inaccurate to the historical setting of the game? Isolationism isn't inherently stupid, even though it isn't helpful long-term. Many nations deemed it a good policy and adopted it accordingly. Do you have a better idea to achieve the results of the above proposals while being more historical?

... +3 unrest for unaccepted culture, while nullifying the -3 unrest bonus from Celestial Empire as a starter, I guess? Then implement your isolationist AI since it's no long stupid gameplay-wise?
Of course a human or a smart AI could try to vassalize and vassal feed. But I see it was exactly what Ming was trying to do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet_during_the_Ming_dynasty .

That said, I don't think proposing my own ideas here is useful. It's products of 3 minutes thought, what can you expect from it.
 

j4freeman

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... +3 unrest for unaccepted culture, while nullifying the -3 unrest bonus from Celestial Empire as a starter, I guess? Then implement your isolationist AI since it's no long stupid gameplay-wise?
Of course a human or a smart AI could try to vassalize and vassal feed. But I see it was exactly what Ming was trying to do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet_during_the_Ming_dynasty .

That said, I don't think proposing my own ideas here is useful. It's products of 3 minutes thought, what can you expect from it.

What's the point of having these threads if we don't come up with ideas on how to fix the issues put forth? We can rant at each other and dissect the accuracy of statements we make all we want, but where does that get us in the long term? Maybe one day a dev or modder will stumble across this thread and see some ideas that they didn't think of, no matter how obvious they may seem. I know I'm being idealistic, but the principal is still important in my opinion.
 

ahyangyi

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What's the point of having these threads if we don't come up with ideas on how to fix the issues put forth? We can rant at each other and dissect the accuracy of statements we make all we want, but where does that get us in the long term? Maybe one day a dev or modder will stumble across this thread and see some ideas that they didn't think of, no matter how obvious they may seem. I know I'm being idealistic, but the principal is still important in my opinion.

Well, I wasn't clear.
I meant posting my proposal is useless, since I'm not really proposing anything, instead I'm just trying to argue for a point which Wiz already stated.

However, I'm not saying your proposal is useless. It's a sincere proposal.

I'm not even disagreeing with your proposal. I just want to make sure the Isolationist AI is justified by the game mechanism.

I re-read my posts and it's obvious that my English writing is often ambiguous or unclear. I apologize for that...
 

Namm

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EU starts with the Age of Discovery, which was brought about by the Europeans desire to reach the wealthy and advanced East. It's really silly that the East is poor and weak compared to Europe in this game...
 

frolix42

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And Portugal got so badly defeated by Morocco.

In 1580, an army of 18,000 Europeans and local Moorish allies were defeated by 60,000 - 100,000 Moroccans. To me this does not prove anything close to technological parity. It also seems that this same scenario, 80,000 Muslim Tech army defeating 18,000 Western Tech army in 1580, could happen in EU4.

Colonisers got alot of help from natives to defeat other natives otherwise it would have taken much longer.

I suppose, but to underestimate European technological superiority was disastrous for Admiral Zheng. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liaoluo_Bay

Zheng Zhilong had adapted European technology throughout his maritime career, decking his ships with European cannons and mercenaries, but in 1633 he had built a new fleet according to European designs: whereas most Chinese junks held at most eight smaller cannons, Zheng's new ships had two reinforced gundecks that could hold up to thirty-six large guns, shooting out of Western-inspired gunports. Putmans would later write about these ships in admiration: "Never before in this land so far as anyone can remember, has anyone seen a fleet like this, with such beautiful, huge, well-armed junks."

However, the new fleet was not given a chance to prove its worth against the Dutch, for it had offered no resistance against the Dutch as they sailed around Gulangyu Island into the harbour of Amoy, thinking they were friendly. The Dutch fired at the Chinese fleet without warning, and as soon as it was apparent that the Chinese would not be able to shoot back, Putmans ordered his men to destroy the fleet by hand to save powder. At the end of the day, only three large junks escaped being burned or hacked to pieces, while there was only one Dutch casualty — a sailor had died setting a fire.

In his next battle against the Dutch, he changed his tactics:
The decisive encounter happened on October 22 when Zheng's fleet met the Dutch ships and fifty ships from Chinese pirate allies. Zheng ordered his fleet to ignore the latter and focus on attacking the Dutch fleet. Knowing that the Chinese ships could not match the Dutch ships in a firefight, Zheng Zhilong instead resolved to use fireships. In order to fool the Dutch to expect otherwise, Zheng chose to use large warjunks as the fireships, decking them with cannon and soldiers (who were equipped with bamboo tubes and were to jump overboard just before crashing the ship into the enemy fleet). The Dutch did not expect the large warjunks to come straight at them, hence they did not even have time to raise their anchors. Ming fireships set fire to the Broeckerhaven. Slooterdijck was hooked on by four Chinese warships.

This does not seem to show technological parity, the opposite in fact. I think it shows that sometimes technologically inferior forces are able to defeat more technologically advanced ones.

Russia got defeated by Qing in 1700s.

This would be more accurately classified as border skirmishes. As it was with the Ming conflict against the Dutch, the Qing had massive local superiority in numbers against the Russians.

Ming defeated Dutch East Indian Company in 1600s.

As I mentioned earlier, the Battle of Liaoluo Bay was preceded by the destruction by the Dutch of what was the most advanced fleet the Ming had ever constructed up to that time. The victory of the Chinese in their conflict against the Dutch would most be attributable to the ability of the Ming to immediately construct a replacement fleet of 150 ships, to face the same 9 Dutch ships (+ local allies) that destroyed their first fleet. It does not show any kind of naval technological parity between the Dutch and Ming, if anything the real life technological disparity between the two was even more severe than depicted in the game.

And what is so special about defeating alot of ships with few ships, they may be of very different size and the useage of material could be differnt.

Korea defeated much larger Japanese navies, do that mean Korea is in western tech?

It probably means that Korea was ahead of Japan in Naval Tech at that time, at least by a little. But the decisive Korean victory at Battle of Myeongnyang was immediately preceded by a decisive Korean defeat at the Battle of Chilcheollyang. In order to make the hypothetical case that Korea is Western Tech, you would have to show how Korean navies consistently outperformed their neighbors over decades.
 
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Namm

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In 1580, an army of 18,000 Europeans and local Moorish allies were defeated by 60,000 - 100,000 Moroccans. To me this does not prove anything close to technological parity. It also seems that this same scenario, 80,000 Muslim Tech army defeating 18,000 Western Tech army in 1580, could happen in EU4.
Morocco is unlikely to field even 60 000 men.
 

frolix42

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Morocco is unlikely to field even 60 000 men.

Certainly. Along those lines I'm more sympathetic to the idea that ROTW should have their numbers buffed than technology equalized. Ming should have more manpower, balanced by employing this manpower in offensive wars being cost prohibitive.
 

deezee

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As I mentioned earlier, the Battle of Liaoluo Bay was preceded by the destruction by the Dutch of what was the most advanced fleet the Ming had ever constructed up to that time. The victory of the Chinese in their conflict against the Dutch would most be attributable to the ability of the Ming to immediately construct a replacement fleet of 150 ships, to face the same 9 Dutch ships (+ local allies) that destroyed their first fleet. It does not show any kind of naval technological parity between the Dutch and Ming, if anything the real life technological disparity between the two was even more severe than depicted in the game.
This is true, but highly misleading. First of all, while the Dutch did destroy an earlier Ming fleet, it was not in an actual battle. The Chinese docked and sailed into Amoy, not realizing that an enemy Dutch fleet was in the area, and the sailors were not actually in their ships at the time the Dutch arrived, to the point where Putmans had the ships dismantled by hand instead of actually firing on them. This is more comparable to the time the Dutch sailed up the Thames and burned the English fleet at harbor than the spectacular naval victories of the 19th century.
Moreover, the Dutch may have only had 9 ships, but they were backed by local allies which had at least 50 ships of the same type of he Ming ships, so while they were significantly outnumbered, the odds were not as overwhelming as they sound (especially since the importance of maneuver means that it is far more common for navies to defeat larger opponents).

As a result, while it is true that Europeans did have a naval advantage over the Chinese by 1633 (it is not obvious that this was the case in 1444, but let us allow it). But it also shows that the naval advantage held by Europeans was, while substantial, insufficient to overcome a fleet that Ming had assembled in less than a year. In my opinion, the most reasonable conclusion is that while Europeans definitely held a technological advantage by the latter half of this period, it is not obvious that it was sufficient to overcome much larger Asian states in open conflicts, even before consider the vast expense of transporting troops this distance, which is not modelled in game (Napoleon's expedition to Haiti lost over half of its men before the first battle; while most of this was due to Yellow Fever, a largescale expedition to East Asia would be several times the distance and require docking in several regions prone to Yellow Fever or Malaria, including Taiwan itself).
Remember, the French conquest of Algeria in 1830 may have been able to win every battle against more or less even odds it faced (showing technological superiority), but the forces Algeria was able to muster were sufficient that France needed a general mobilization in order to win, and even then was unable to conquer beyond the coasts.
 

Agoria

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In 1580, an army of 18,000 Europeans and local Moorish allies were defeated by 60,000 - 100,000 Moroccans. To me this does not prove anything close to technological parity. It also seems that this same scenario, 80,000 Muslim Tech army defeating 18,000 Western Tech army in 1580, could happen in EU4.
Not only that.
- The major part of the army were germanic mercenaries that fought almost right after their arrival in Portugal.
- Portugal was winning the war, Morroco even tried to sign peace giving Portugal the city of Larache.* They lost the most decisive battle only because they were leaded by the very young and unexperimented king that wanted to go inlands wheareas they were supposed to stay on the coasts with support from the portuguese fleet.
- Not only Muslim tech, Morroco at this time was backed by Ottomans and could be considered as Ottoman tech ingame. They used Ottoman cavalry and artillery and some of the leaders were Ottomans.
- Sources about the muslim army are very inaccurate, it goes from 45k to* 100k men.
- This defeat is very well known because of the King's death, but Portugal won most of their campains against Morroco to conquer Morrocan Coastal cities, always in large inferiority on the battlefield.

For all this reasons, I wouldn't rely on that to get an idea of how much the western were more advanced.

Sorry for the lack of sources, some of this comes from my memory.

*In french, end of the section, sourced.
 
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toroltao

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Give China 3/3/3 or 4/4/4 starting tech. Problem solved.
 

Rubidium

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Europeans greatest advantage was seldom tech but the ability to use the diplomatic situation in the area to their advantage.
It was usually a combination. Diplomacy helps, but only if you have something to offer. E.g. the Tlaxcalteca saw that the Spanish had weapons, equipment and tactics that allowed them to punch above their weight, and thus figured they would be useful allies against the Aztecs. If a bunch of unarmed Spaniards had shown up naked on the beach, they would probably have a life of slavery ahead of them. And all the diplomacy in the world makes no difference if you can't actually reach your diplomatic partners and project power; there is a reason that Tlaxcalteca conquistadors weren't forming alliances with Portugal to conquer Madrid.