Let's talk about Chinese technological inferiority.

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deezee

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I mean for the goals at hand (have a China that is technologically advanced but stagnate), the obvious solution is to have them start at high tech but suffer a major tech malus. Muslims already have this, but I imagine to preserve game balance China would still have to have a big malus, but the earlier starting point shouldn't really matter (since the advantage would be erased long before Europeans reach China).
The real question is why China starts at a lower tech level than the Nomad group. I imagine its to account for the southeast asian countries that also are in the Chinese tech group, since they weren't especially advanced for the time period, but they really should have their own tech group, while the Chinese group is just China, Korea, Japan and maybe Vietnam.

In general modelling a complex historical area like technological advancement is extremely difficult. And really, if it was accurately modelled, the player (who represents the state), would have little to no involvement in it, beyond patronage and censorship, so I guess its only natural pretty much everything about the tech system is designed for gameplay reasons.
 

PiriReis

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I mean for the goals at hand (have a China that is technologically advanced but stagnate), the obvious solution is to have them start at high tech but suffer a major tech malus. Muslims already have this, but I imagine to preserve game balance China would still have to have a big malus, but the earlier starting point shouldn't really matter (since the advantage would be erased long before Europeans reach China).

Muslims start at same tech level if you meant that, in EU3 they did start a level or 2 higher IIRC.

Code:
groups = {
	western = {
		modifier = 0
[B]		start_level = 3[/B]
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.5
		trade_company = yes
	}
	eastern = {
		modifier = 0.20
		start_level = 3
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.6
	}
	ottoman = {
		modifier = 0.25
		start_level = 3
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.5
	}
	muslim = {
		modifier = 0.40
[B]		start_level = 3[/B]
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.8
	}
	indian = {
		modifier = 0.5
		start_level = 2
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.5
	}
	chinese = {
		modifier = 0.6
		start_level = 2
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.5
	}
	nomad_group = {
		modifier = 0.75
		start_level = 3
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 1.0
	}
 

Xerberuss

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At least make Chinese tech level 1 or 2 levels over the Europeans. Or maybe return the -25% tech bonus to the Eunuch faction. At least Ming was playable with that bonus. Now, Ming is just utter shite.
 

calvinhobbeslik

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You mean 'genetic reasons'.
Europeans have the explorer genes so they go off an explore. A successful one comes back rich and has tons of offspring.

China's one explorer was a unich(castrated) so he never passed on his explorer gene.


...That's not how Genetics works...
 
Last edited:

Agoria

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I was contemplating on the fact that Chinese who were historically more advanced than any European countries in 1444 start with an inferior technology than nomads in EU4.

I thought I would share this sentiment of oddity with the rest of the community by going over Zheng He's expedition in 1405 ~ 1433



Ezo3tb5.jpg


There were 7 massive expeditions. Fun facts:

1. Between 1403 and 1419, Nanjing's shipyards alone built 2000 vessels, including 100 treasure
ships 370-440 ft in length, displacing approximately 3000 tons, with 4 – 9 masts up to 90 ft high, and carrying up to 500 men.

2. The first large fleet in 1407 had 317 vessels (the great Spanish Armada of 1588 had only 132) crewed by some 27,800 men. Moreover, the fleet was armed with cannon.

3. The world had never seen such a projection of maritime power, and would not see its like again until World War. The fleets certainly dwarfed anything Europe had at the time. The Europeans were only starting to venture out of the Mediterranean, and their ships were tiny and unsophisticated in comparison to Zheng He’s gigantic ships.


One of Zheng He’s large treasure ships compared to Columbus’ flagship 90 years later. Feel the power of superior shipbuilding technology despite a century of difference!


It means nothing if the technology is not used. They knew how to cross oceans before europeans (even if navigating the Atlantic Ocean is not the same than as the Indian or Pacific one) but didn't use it anymore in 1444. It would be a nonsense to implement it. Also claiming that they were "more advanced" in a large meaning is a bit risky. They were better navigators on the begining of the XV century, so they were more advanced in the "dip tech" ingame, but what about the others ?

Reading this, I feel that you think that that the chinese were much more advanced compared to europeans than they actually were.
The size and the number doesn't mean that much. Any european ship in the 1600's or even the second part of the 1500's were FAR MORE efficient than chinese ships. And comparable ships in size existed, and probably way earlier than you think. Do you know the portuguese galleon named "Botafogo" (spitfire) that used 300+ cannons ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botafogo_(galleon)
Also you tell us that the fact that China had a lot of big ships shows how China was advanced whereas it's because China was a huge united country with huge resources and population.
It has nothing or almost nothing to do with tech advancement.




After this, China enters a period of technological stagnation because scholarly officials for an unknown reason called of the expedition and dismantled the entire fleet, erasing most records. Qing's weaponry was no better than that of Ming's.

Military technological advancement is mostly born from fierce competition with rivals. Chinese did not have states of equal power, and primitive firearms were not very effective against nomad cavalries, hence its stagnation. History could have changed if China was somehow divided, if another superstate had risen, or if China didn't stop Zheng He's expedition.
You just explained why chinese are not ahead from nomads. As unfortunatly, all techs are tied, they had to make give the chinese a huge tech cost to emulate the Mongol threat. IRL that threat is the main reason why China was nothing on the seas in 1444...

After all of that my personal toughts are that in a perfect world, each region would have its own tech tree instead of sharing one with more or less penalty. Not only because of the difference in tech evolution between the chinese and the europeans but also, for example, the native americans that had some impressive knowledge too, even if they were never able to compete on land and on sea.

For one Zheng He's voyages are probably embellished considering that the ships he used are not technologically possible. A wooden ship of their size is not seaworthy and would breakup due to ocean waves. They are just way too large.

I don't think so. These chinese ships are not bigger than european biggest in-line ships.
 

Denkt

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Big ships is not a proof of technological advancement, it is much more important to look how they were designed.
I have heard that the treasure fleet was very expansive and the Ming state did have serious economy problems and treats so it had to be destroyed to save money.

Ming you basically have to focus on westernizing but if you avoid any trouble you should be one of the most powerful countries afterwards and have little trouble dominating the region if not much more then so.
 

Cataphract887

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I just find it odd that China is sharing the same tech penalty as sub-Saharans... I might be wrong and will be open to enlightenment if mistaken but does anyone really think that the technological advances of the Chinese were tantamount to that of Kongo or Mali?

The thing is, china has virtually no technological progression. Its a plateau from which you can remain or descend but not increase. Many chinese ''technological'' achievements are from a thousand or two thousand years ago but their cultural could be said to be in stagnation or regression at some points...despite obtaining a good seafaring prowess it wasnt difficult for their culture to reject and discard this and focus inwardly. More western states would generally not give up on any useful tools that could be used for profit\imperialism. The culture in china isnt interesting in expanding outwards...its got enough trouble maintaining what it already has and not disintegrating into civil war(which regularly happened)

Real life doesnt work like EU logic...i mean taxing several hundred million people and putting a percentage of it toward research would obviously allow the chinese to have spaceships launched in EU timeframe...thats why they have the terrible tech penalties.
 

Eilif

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I just find it odd that China is sharing the same tech penalty as sub-Saharans... I might be wrong and will be open to enlightenment if mistaken but does anyone really think that the technological advances of the Chinese were tantamount to that of Kongo or Mali?

Technology in Africa (well parts of the continent at least) was not stagnant as in China, but they should start behind. Many of rising states in West Africa were using new weapons and tactics, improving trade with new links with the Europeans, introducing new crops and reforming or improving the form of government.
China could start as the most advanced part of the world (tech 6), but tech slowly, losing this advantage to the West Europeans in 100 years or so in the current Chinese tech malus. Well, just the ahead of time penalty already would halt the Chinese tech advancement in initial decades. One could even defend that the Chinese tech should be even slower and start somewhat higher.
Also, maybe Indochina and Indonesia regions should have their own tech group, starting behind, but advancing faster than China proper. Or maybe just put then in the Indian group.
 
Last edited:

finkellll

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Since China has faster tech rate than mongols, starting them higher than mongols mean manchu can never invade because of military tech inferiority. China can start higher but would need an even slower rate (like 100% instead of 60%) so that the manchu invasion can still happen.

either that or we simply buff castile/portugal. The sooner they colonize siberia the sooner they can kill the mongols for ming.
 

highsis

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It means nothing if the technology is not used. They knew how to cross oceans before europeans (even if navigating the Atlantic Ocean is not the same than as the Indian or Pacific one) but didn't use it anymore in 1444. It would be a nonsense to implement it. Also claiming that they were "more advanced" in a large meaning is a bit risky. They were better navigators on the begining of the XV century, so they were more advanced in the "dip tech" ingame, but what about the others ?

Reading this, I feel that you think that that the chinese were much more advanced compared to europeans than they actually were.

Military revolution that takes place in Europe in late 16th century transforms the European society, as firearm becomes predominant and old castles obsolete, states became centralized to deal with huge expanses in warfare and defenses. China undergoes similar weapon advancement, but it does not undergo any social changes because China by that point had already been practicing centralized bureaucracy for 1800 years since Qin.

Centralized bureaucracy is an advanced form of government than feudal Europe, and China employed statesmen based on meritocracy, though birth did play part. Chinese had more advanced naval technology. China used cannons long before Europeans employed primitive firearms in the hundred years war. Chinese warships used cannons in naval battles in 14th century. I think it's safe to claim China was ahead of any contemporary European countries in GOV, DIP, and MIL.



The size and the number doesn't mean that much. Any european ship in the 1600's or even the second part of the 1500's were FAR MORE efficient than chinese ships.

The game starts in 1444. 1600s is more than 150 years after the game's start date, that's more than 1/3 of the game's time span. North Korea of today can defeat US army of WWII with ease, and that is not a testimony of North Korea being superior to US in technology.

The general consensus among historians is that China was ahead of Europe until 1500~1550s, with few exceptions such as firearms(muskets). That would leave China ahead of Europe for 50~100 years after the game's start date.
 
Last edited:

Dracolithfiend

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Did you know that the Roman Empire sent envoys to China 1400 years before china even sent out this expedition? Or that Rome had trade ports set up in India? The Romans had roughly 12 fleets comprised of a total for 500 ships. Once again this was 1400 years prior to China building anything grander then a river boat. As for your other points. . .

1. The Venetian Arsenal alone produced and maintained this many ships several hundred years before 1444.

2. The Venetian fleet of this era comprised of over 3,000 galleys. These were armed with canon.

3. In the ancient Mediterranean and Oceana they produced Polyremes that dwarf anything until the modern era. Each ship carried 4,000 rowers, 400 crew, and 3,000 marines.


Your argument sounds a bit like a Katana fanboys. Just because it came from the Mystic East does not make it better.
 

Beagá

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China was richer than Europe because it was united.

Also, honestly, we all know EU4 social model sucks, sliders should return and Westernization to be a process done in steps. I think Zheng He´s voyages were mentioned here some 300 times already...

China could start as the most advanced part of the world (tech 6), but tech slowly, losing this advantage to the West Europeans in 100 years or so in the current Chinese tech malus. Well, just the ahead of time penalty already would halt the Chinese tech advancement in initial decades. One could even defend that the Chinese tech should be even slower and start somewhat higher.
Also, maybe Indochina and Indonesia regions should have their own tech group, starting behind, but advancing faster than China proper. Or maybe just put then in the Indian group.

Europe was doing equal or better fire arms in 1444 already. So no.
 

User4035

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...That's not how Genetics works...

Ya it is.
Survival of the fittest. If you have genetic traits that allow you to succeed and reproduce then your offspring have higher chance of inheriting those traits. And then become successful because of that so then they reproduce.
 

Grand Historian

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While I agree that the Chinese Tech Group needs a buff (along with the Mesoamerican and Andean groups), I think putting them ahead of Europe Technologically is ridiculous. Best case scenario the penalty should be reduced from 60% to 50%, which would be a better representation of history (or just increase the Sub-Saharan penalty, because most of the anger seems to stem from the fact that the two are equal).

While it is undeniable that many inventions and technological breakthroughs came from China, they were rarely improved upon or refined. While China invented Gunpowder, they never created an effective firearm. Though they came up with a repeating crossbow before Europe, the Cho-Ko-Nu was highly inaccurate and proved to be ineffective against heavily armed opponents, unlike the Arbalest. Though they created one of the earliest calendars, it was too arbitrary to be consistent or accurate. Likewise, any sort of Philosophical thought outside of Confucianism and Legalism was highly discouraged, which greatly impeded the spread of new ideas. This resulted in China entering stagnation in the mid-fifteenth century and becoming technologically backwards by the beginning of the sixteenth.

Part of this was simply due to the way China was structured, culturally and governmentally. The caste system discouraged any sort of meritocracy or social mobility, ancestor worship and inward perfection resulted in many new ideas and inventions being rejected, and the Mandate of Heaven resulted in China viewing themselves as undefeatable, and thus there was little need to adapt militarily (or at all). A massive population also affected this, due to the fact that they could simply throw more ill-trained, equipped and disciplined peasants at an opponent instead of innovating new tactics (something similar to this was also one of the many causes of the fall of the Western Roman Empire; it's overreliance on slaves discouraged technological development since it was cheaper to throw more men at a problem).

While Feudalism in Western Europe was a caste system of sorts, unlike in China, it was lax and not all enveloping. This was demonstrated through the creation of the University, which was sponsored by the Church, where any freeman or noble who could afford an education, as well as had the time for one, could be provided one. This was a stark difference from China, where higher education was usually reserved for the military and bureaucrats, and even then only granted based on recommendation. While some of this was resolved with the introduction of the examination under the Song Dynasty, the education was still only tailored for a career in the government, and still failed to include new ideas.

The fact that China was technologically and ideologically backwards was demonstrated over multiple occasions, such as in the Imjin War, when Toyotomi Hideyoshi invaded the Korean Peninsula in a desire to use it as a staging ground to invade China. Unlike China, the Japanese at the time (due to the Sengoku Jidai), experienced some forms of social mobility and meritocracy, and adapted militarily and technologically, and even a few of them had embraced Western thought and Christianity. The technologically superior and disciplined Japanese Armies, who were led by competent, battle hardened commanders, managed to defeat the Sino-Korean military in almost every major land engagement it fought in, despite being outnumbered by nearly a third (this amounts to nearly 70,000 men, though a third is a conservative number). While ultimately a combination of attrition, Korean Guerilla raids, overextension of the military, the Japanese navy getting destroyed and their supply routes getting cut off, and Hideyoshi's ailing health did them in, it still proved that China was far from the invincible land power it once was.

The after the devastation and humiliation of the Imjin War, followed by another famine due to a bitter winter (this itself can be attributed to a lack of industry), and the Spanish withholding shipments of the much needed Silver that had kept the hyperinflation that wracked 1450's at bay, the Ming utterly collapsed at the hands of a Peasant Soldier and the Manchu, with the surviving remnants of the dynasty too focused on fighting each other for right to be the successor to focus on mounting an effective defense against the Qing.

Despite the fact the China experienced a short technological revival under the Qing, with it's high point occurring under Kangxi, it still relied to a great extent on the west for technological and ideological developments, due to the fact that they had adopted many of the Ming's old policies and ideas. This was demonstrated by the fact that the Imperial Observatory was run by the Jesuits until their expulsion.

Due to the fact that the old Confucian Bureaucracy had continually opposed any sort of adoption of Western thought, and barely tolerated the use of western technology for the military, China was completely overwhelmed by Meiji Japan, who had embraced Western ideas and technology, in the First Sino-Japanese War. This latest humiliation was followed by the Xenophobic and Anti-Christian Boxer Uprising, which resulted in most of the world's great powers descending on China and pushing the already shaky Qing Dynasty over the edge.

So, massive post aside, the China tech deserves a slight buff, but not being ahead of the Europeans. And I took up half a page and nearly an hour just to say why...:p
 
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klingonadmiral

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In my oppinion, Ming should be moved into a seperate techgroup (name it Chinese and rename the current Chinese to East Asian), starting with technology equal to the Europeans, but retaining a rather severe tech malus. Unique unit types would also be appreciated, maybe should be even among the best in the world in 1444 (maybe even with 1 defensive fire pip in infantry?), but growing extremely low stats-wise. At least in the hands of the AI, Ming should have close to no chance to survive unscathed until 1821 (maybe even give the Manchu AI an incentive to invade them, my Manchu/Qing never do).

However, I assume quite a few people play EU4 to specifically spit the course of history in the face, returning Rome to the glory of one and a half millenia ago, restoring Al-Andalus or invading Europe as the Chimu. Ming should actually get one of these dynamic historical event chains, allowing the emperor to once again send out ships to explore the world, against whatever domestic resistance that may arise from it. If the people rebel, judge them by fire and steel!
 

Jephery

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I think tech groups costs should be based on the percentage of global trade the group controls.

Early on, most groups would be relatively equal, except for the native Americans which have terrible trade values at the start, but as the Europeans colonize the Americas, Africa, and Asia, they'll control more and more of the world's trade and their tech group will get a bigger tech bonus while other tech groups fall behind.

This way tech costs aren't a matter of ahistorical "westernization", its a matter of controlling world trade. Generally the Europeans should monopolize world trade and thus techonological development, but in some games the rest of the world might be able to hold off the Europeans and maintain technological dominance themselves.

Tech groups would represent a cultural sphere where ideas are shared between closely related cultures. The more economically vibrant the cultural sphere, the bigger tech bonus.
 

Xinkc

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I alway's thought the weak point in EU series were this artificial tech penalties for other cultures besides white Europe.

Each culture should just have its own unique tech tree instead of a 200 Percent penalty in research. Such a lazy work-around.

I think that the unique tech tree idea per culture idea is a bit more complicated than you think it is, especially since switching primary cultures is a feature of the game.
 

SweetHalcyHS

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I think tech groups costs should be based on the percentage of global trade the group controls.

Early on, most groups would be relatively equal, except for the native Americans which have terrible trade values at the start, but as the Europeans colonize the Americas, Africa, and Asia, they'll control more and more of the world's trade and their tech group will get a bigger tech bonus while other tech groups fall behind.

This way tech costs aren't a matter of ahistorical "westernization", its a matter of controlling world trade. Generally the Europeans should monopolize world trade and thus techonological development, but in some games the rest of the world might be able to hold off the Europeans and maintain technological dominance themselves.

Tech groups would represent a cultural sphere where ideas are shared between closely related cultures. The more economically vibrant the cultural sphere, the bigger tech bonus.

It sounds neat, but it unfortunately doesn't deal with the issue of China very well. It should be somehow not directly correlated with sheer size or power for it to really work.
 

keynes2.0

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Ya it is.
Survival of the fittest. If you have genetic traits that allow you to succeed and reproduce then your offspring have higher chance of inheriting those traits. And then become successful because of that so then they reproduce.

Amusing troll is amusing.