Maybe assign airwings like you do divisions on the "attack arrows"? Or to the front, making them bomb mostly defensively.
Lets talk about airwar!
- Thread starter OntoTR
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Theory-->Working are two separate things and HOI 3 included the ability to assign air units at the corps level with that assumption (offensive, defensive, prepare commands). It didn't work very well and manual control was required if you wanted to attack the correct areas plus control attrition. I'll wait and see how it turns out but any system leaving all or most of the control to the AI is begging for failure. Players control was pretty much required for the air/naval aspects of HOI 3 and I don't see them being able to drop that system unless things have greatly improved.
- 2
maybe a simple option to tell your airwings to give priority or solely focus on offensive or defensive battles?
- 1
I've got a similar memory, and all being well it's still in the game. Not surprised we haven't seen it on WWW, they've been too busy to assign wings to strategic areas a lot of the time, let alone focus their use.
I like this idea a lot. As others have mentioned, it would need the AI to have improved since HoI3, but I'd expect that to have happened. This system, in conjunction with a general strategic region system and being able to target specific provinces would probably go a long way to covering most bases (ie, people could go hands off, or assign troops to a particular front/axis of attack, or go the full micro and assign wings to specific states/provinces as required).
Well, to piggy back off your comment, @Axe99, I think that there's a chance with this new system for targeted attacks by a proportion of the CAS engaged in the sector to be divvied up amongst the various battles going on at any one time. Given that we're tracking airframes individually now, the AI should be able to better identify which forces to support (ie, armor in the offense or things that indicate a hostile's main effort like multi-pronged attacks and enemy armor). Because now I don't have three units of Stukas only to focus all across the front, I should have 300+ Stukas which can task out to various units by an order of importance.
For instance: I./KG 1 with 100 Stukas is assigned to Konigsburg, and there is one armor and three infantry divisions. The armor is driving on Warsaw, and is in combat the first day, while the infantry are also engaged, they are not the main effort. The armor goes through, and so they're not actually fighting anymore, but the other three infantry divisions are, so it divides them up as needed given the strength rating that the AI sees from the front. As the armor gets back into the fight closer to Warsaw, it sends more aircraft back there and stops supporting the infantry as much.
For instance: I./KG 1 with 100 Stukas is assigned to Konigsburg, and there is one armor and three infantry divisions. The armor is driving on Warsaw, and is in combat the first day, while the infantry are also engaged, they are not the main effort. The armor goes through, and so they're not actually fighting anymore, but the other three infantry divisions are, so it divides them up as needed given the strength rating that the AI sees from the front. As the armor gets back into the fight closer to Warsaw, it sends more aircraft back there and stops supporting the infantry as much.
- 1
Another thing I thought about is setting priorities or calling in airsupport for battles/regions.
The system with the big airareas stays the same like it is.
When you have a fight you can call in airsupport in the battlescreen (you can call for example 50 planes and you can choose the type which is available in this airarea). Depending if you have airsup or not you get a bonus or not and how many planes are available.
You should be also be able to click on regions and click the option "bomb supply/ic/infrastructure there".
The player doesnt have to micro units but is still able to focus regions/units. He just has to click on the region for a certain action.
It would be easy to implement in the system as it is right now and would give the player the possibility to focus some units on the front.
Other possibility would be setting priorities for cas/bombing for regions in those big areas. But I like the first one more
edit: typos
The system with the big airareas stays the same like it is.
When you have a fight you can call in airsupport in the battlescreen (you can call for example 50 planes and you can choose the type which is available in this airarea). Depending if you have airsup or not you get a bonus or not and how many planes are available.
You should be also be able to click on regions and click the option "bomb supply/ic/infrastructure there".
The player doesnt have to micro units but is still able to focus regions/units. He just has to click on the region for a certain action.
It would be easy to implement in the system as it is right now and would give the player the possibility to focus some units on the front.
Other possibility would be setting priorities for cas/bombing for regions in those big areas. But I like the first one more
edit: typos
Last edited:
Everything but the system from HoI3. I hated having to tell air wings which few provinces to attack. I don't want to say "Yo, you three wings go to russian province X-Y" but I want to say "Assign this and that many airplanes to our advances in this region."
- 1
None of you understand the art of war. Why should I reassign my planes during an invasion to an enemy army which refuses to move? The planes are meant to support my advance, not pointlessly kill frenchies just because it looks uncool on the map that they are still standing. It seems you have no clue how to use your air support effectively. Even a modestly knowledgeable general would know it is pointless to assign good men to a front that won't move, rather than one that is already well in motion. The art of war PROMOTES using your resources to fight where it is advantageous, and avoid or stall those fronts that won't budge. It seems like the only real issue here is that little defiant frenchie army and that you don't have the ability to reassign airplanes to something which has no vital importance to the actual invasion of France to simply removing already fighting aircraft to assign them to troops who are failing to defeat a cut of surrounded army on their own; which again, has no relevance to the actual objective of the invasion, cutting off french troops and prevent them from forming a defensive line.
If the only real issue in this thread is the fact that you can't reassign your planes, which is complete lies, then I suggest this thread is closed. If you really want to take out those frenchies, you can assign some aircraft AFTER you have secured the rest of France, not until your assault is over. Just accept that you aren't Hitler/Mussolini and don't HAVE to micromanage every single thing that is happening on the screen. If you don't let your men prove yourselves then they will never succeed to earn your respect, and then they won't care to follow you.
It's because the constant micromanagement HOI3 never became a successful multiplayer, therefor rendering it unpopular among people who prefer multiplayer games and therefor less revenue. Less revenue, worse game, sad devs.
While I agree it can be worked on, I really don't think it's a very urgent issue.
Just because that army is lead by Napoleon doesn't mean I have to fight him to the death, neglecting my other troops.
If the only real issue in this thread is the fact that you can't reassign your planes, which is complete lies, then I suggest this thread is closed. If you really want to take out those frenchies, you can assign some aircraft AFTER you have secured the rest of France, not until your assault is over. Just accept that you aren't Hitler/Mussolini and don't HAVE to micromanage every single thing that is happening on the screen. If you don't let your men prove yourselves then they will never succeed to earn your respect, and then they won't care to follow you.
It's because the constant micromanagement HOI3 never became a successful multiplayer, therefor rendering it unpopular among people who prefer multiplayer games and therefor less revenue. Less revenue, worse game, sad devs.
While I agree it can be worked on, I really don't think it's a very urgent issue.
Just because that army is lead by Napoleon doesn't mean I have to fight him to the death, neglecting my other troops.
Last edited:
- 2
- 2
That's changed then. I'd say this must be work in progress as it seems too random and the tiles don't match the title and description.
Good spot! Cheers.
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here - are you suggesting that the Germans shouldn't have bombed the artillery positions supporting the French defences at Sedan prior to and during attacking them? Those French positions were very much static, but the air bombardment played an important role in making the breakthrough as quick and decisive as it was.
Other examples of useful air support on static positions abound, as do the use of CAS on specific avenues of travel (ie, interdiction) and specific sea lanes.
Air support was also used, to substantial effect, defensively, on many many occasions. Being able to tell my CAS that I really want it to support my troops in a certain place rather than another (because losing in one place will be a lot worse than in the other, but the game's AI is unlikely to be able to tell which is the key location) would be both historically plausible, tactically sound and welcome as a game mechanic.
- 4
I said the aircraft are used to support the advance in every way possible, and nothing else. Sure, you could have your bombers wear them down before you complete a breakthrough, but do you honestly believe the enemy wouldn't notice such an obvious act as a pre-emptive attempt to storm that key area, thus making it assign more troops and aircrafts to support that area? I never said you couldn't do that to achieve breakthrough; HOWEVER, once the breakthrough has been achieved and the defensive line broken, the bombers can really go wherever they are needed as a supporting arm. During the first phase I assign all my planes to either wear down a key area or distract the enemy by having him sending more troops to a more isolated front while I use my army somewhere completely else. The point in the end is that aircrafts will pretty much fight with the best ability and try to achieve whatever your goal is, whether that be close air support to help your infantry or air supremacy or just as a distraction: Those things you will be able to command. Now if you ever need some spare wings, then just have them wait and assign those aircrafts personally. In the end, if the bombers already have achieved breakthrough then there is no point for them hanging around the maginott line, but rather make sure any defensive lines are reestablished. I never said they shouldn't bomb Sedan, but to wager whether to prioritize an already broken line or one that might be established if they don't press on along the infantry. There are both pros and cons to how much actual control we have over our aircraft, but there was no mention in any dev diary that we can assign airwings to specific locations if we wish, atleast until they have achieved breakthrough, whereupon they can be spread along the advancing line.
The only real issue I can see here is that people are upset you can't control where to have more planes and where to have less like in hoi3, but as I understand the AI will figure out thatself depending on what information it has available. (Like where the enemy is gathering, amount of troops in a certain region etc etc) This is probably done so that the enemy AI will actually act accordingly to whatever the player might do and NOT to try and dumb down the main game mechanics. Let's remeber how horrible the AI was at reassigning troops in hoi3. That is the kind of AI we absolutely don't want in HOI4, and therefor improving the AI is prioritized over finding new ways to exploit the AI by giving the players tools that it understand how to use while leaving the AI to rust. We are trying to have a game where the enemy isn't completely retarded for once, but it seems a lot of people has mistaken improving the enemy AI with overemphatizing on the player's AI bots. They don't, whether it is the AI you have at your disposal or the AI's own is unimportant, since they are both using the same AI. I am not saying that it is perfect, since making AI is really F*** hard, or atleast AI that can respond appropriately to what the player does.
Again, the game isn't finished, neither is the AI, so we shouldn't jump to conclusions.
Last edited:
- 1
Historically the Germans used their CAS as air 'artillery' to constantly attack the units around Sedan to allow the panzers to get across the rivers and advance. I like the overall air war in HOI4 but being able to pin point attacks is a very useful and (in my opinion) required feature.
Let's remember we can drop supplies on surrounded units etc...so a pin point feature is already in game - it can be done!
Let's remember we can drop supplies on surrounded units etc...so a pin point feature is already in game - it can be done!
- 2
This is a good idea actually. What I would add is some way after General Breakthrough has achieved his is to reassign the entire airwing to some other division that might need them more to achieve another breakthrough themselves. German doctrine focused on breakthroughs so having a air wing that can support those attempting generals would be really nice, rather than stupidly spreading them out even during the start. I still think it's ok for them to be assigned along a line and have them by their own power prioritize whatever they feel like to mess up in an area once the breakthrough has been achieved, but I agree with you on the rest. Since it would be too hard to tell where those generals or how they would achieve the breakthrough, it would feel kind of stupid not to have them assigned to a General that you can tailor for the very purpose of achieve the breakthroughs. I am not saying you couldn't achieve that without assigning them to a division, but it would require less micro while still being "Smart an not AI" kind of act.
Again, I think the developers felt the AI should assign their own aircrafts to counter such attacks. If you are trying to achieve a breakthrough at Sedan then France and the UK will ALSO assign all their aircrafts to Sedan to make sure you can't use air supremacy to achieve breakthrough, which means regardless of how we assign our aircraft the enemy will just counter attack with their own accordingly. The only real prioritizing there is to be made is whether you want to focus on winging air supremacy by bombing the enemy's air bases or assist your troops in the advance. The results would be the same in everything other than those aspects. Other than that I think there has been an improvement in rationalizing the AI to act on "priority" rather isolated fronts, but yeah, being able to direct your troops atleast when trying to achieve breakthroughs could be useful, but not for the purpose of boosting the breakthrough itself, but more to make sure the enemy couldn't use their aircrafts to prevent that certain breakthrough. Again, the AI would simply react accordingly to what the Human's AI acts, and vice verse, making very little difference. Afterall, we use our aircrafts, unless they have been ordered to be bombing, is to counter the enemy's aircraft, so regardless who or where the attack is commenced, aircrafts will be assigned appropriately to where they are needed. The AI in hoi3 sucked balls because it didn't understand those basic concepts, and rarely tried anything other than to stack bomb the human player who would do the same, leading to it only being about who had most aircrafts, not whether the AI or the human player assigned them parsee. Again, don't have much knowledge in hoi3, because I never got into it... Now the AI might still try to stackbomb, but the players aircrafts would counter attack without having to reassign them constantly. Human orders would only be countered by the AI, so ordering them around loses a lot of relevance. It could still be used, just not as often. If nothing else, more time to assign the infantry during war and use the battle planer without having to go 1-2 speed constantly.
Another idea would be to have a few slots for each airwing so what you can press either of them when you want to have them assigned to whatever general, or just some quick comfortable way to quickly reassign air wings to generals on a whim. Good suggestions
Last edited:
- 1
I missed the original post but I have to say this is a very good idea. Even the AI could assign air units to armies and benefit from the support. It is a less click intensive way of getting the right air support where a player wants it, otherwise just assign aircraft to the region for a more broad attack. I hope the devs see Entropy/Avatar's post.
In my opinion this would be a nice way.
Let the system with air-regions be in place for fighter missions. ("Interception-zone")
The same is ok for torpedo bombers. They can use the same area as ships for theyr bombing runs.
But give at least tactical and for gods sake Strategical Bombers the option to bomb one specific territory.
Not only because of Bombing Ground troops there but much more important in my eyes is the bombing of Factorys and Supply routes.
(And i can draw a line here to HoI3 again)
It was essential to bomb the logistics and Infrastructure behind the enemy lines to cut them off from Supply and be able to take them on even if your units are not as strong as theyrs. This possibility made this game many times more strategic and makes you think HOW MANY Units you let actually run around. When bombers are only deployed to "bomb around" in a wide area they lose most of theyr effectiveness and it gets more a game of "who uses more" instead of "how to use your units" it takes so much strategic planning out of the game. And that is a sad thing in the end.
Ye I know Paradox wanted to make the game more "user friendly" and simpler... (and thats somethin horrible for ME in the end, because i love complex games and I think it could get even more complicated than HoI3 for my liking, as long as the Interface gets more accessable)
But breaking down the Air Mechanics to such a big simplification is to much. Its ok for Fighters to gain Air Superiority or intercept in a specific area. But any kind of bombing loses its sense. You want to bomb Key positions or Critical Areas.
But (and I must say that i actually give a damn about things like "it needs to be authentic" or things like that, as long as the play has freedom and the game is fun) to draw the line to reality now, no one would send its bombers to go around and send some little crackers here and there. This is way to expensive to just waste bombs (and Bombers) everywhere.
So as a summary again:
I think this mechanic is nice for Fighters, but to simple for bombers because the game loses to many strategical aspekts and shrinks your posibilitys as a player to much.
Last edited:
- 3
That is my main concern is that it becomes too simplified. If I invade, I want my air attack to focus on capturing that key port for supply, not some province inland.
- 1
Bombers wearing down an area before an assault (usually within 24 hours before the assault, so not enough time to get a lot of extra troops to the front, was pretty common. Not always as effective as hoped (the bombing before Goodwood, for example), but pretty standard practice.
Agree that once the breakthrough has been made the CAS aircraft continue to support the breakthrough units, but your argument seemed to be (noting that I wasn't entirely clear on what you were saying, so may have misinterpreted it) that we shouldn't be asking for the ability to target aircraft to a location. One the by, at least at one stage the devs have confirmed we can target specific regions (possibly just states, but at least states) in the game - it was a comment somewhere in the forums, I think in a dev diary thread but not the dev diary post itself.
I believe CAS priority is for units in combat. So if you want to support your armoured advance don't attack head on with infantry on your infantry lines.
- 1