Let's rank the (Western) Roman emperors!

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Geriander

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What we know about Tiberius' stay on Capri is actually nothing more than marketplace gossip, much alike today's outlandish stories about lives of modern day politicians or celebrities.

Caligula seemed perfectly fine after he returned from the island. His apparent madness, if there was actually any, was a result of his sudden illness a few months after he ascended onto the throne.

What we know about Tiberius’ stay on Capri is as well founded as what we know about Tiberius and Caligula in general. We can dismiss it as gossip but lets not pretend that our sources on the rest of their reigns are much better.

Regarding Caligula prior to his illness, you clearly haven’t oaid attention to Suetonius. What is more likely:

1) Caligula made an effort to put up a good front for a few months to gain stable support and then showed his true colours, or

2) A sudden illness turned Caligula into a sexual deviant and tyrant (and the claims of him previously being one were lies).
 

Sabotage13

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Regarding Caligula prior to his illness, you clearly haven’t oaid attention to Suetonius. What is more likely:

1) Caligula made an effort to put up a good front for a few months to gain stable support and then showed his true colours, or

2) A sudden illness turned Caligula into a sexual deviant and tyrant (and the claims of him previously being one were lies).

3) Senators generally don't respond well to being incessantly trolled by a guy who has neither the support of the army nor that of the patrician class, and damnatio memoriae was a common measure of revenge among the literate upper class
 

Geriander

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3) Senators generally don't respond well to being incessantly trolled by a guy who has neither the support of the army nor that of the patrician class, and damnatio memoriae was a common measure of revenge among the literate upper class
Then we can ignore anything we know about that emperor at all as all our sources are literate upper class people (most of them writing under a dynasty that has later usurped the throne). It isn't an argument to support one theory over the other, it casts equal doubt on all.
 

Sabotage13

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Then we can ignore anything we know about that emperor at all as all our sources are literate upper class people (most of them writing under a dynasty that has later usurped the throne). It isn't an argument to support one theory over the other, it casts equal doubt on all.
Or maybe we should simply take aspersions of a disgraced ruler's insanity with a grain of salt, especially when citing an author writing a century after the fact, in an era when historiography was frequently synonymous with political propaganda. I don't know, it seems pretty sensible to apply some Quellenkritik to a source we know to be biased.

But maybe that's just me, it could also be that we have to either accept everything uncritically or discard everything, with no wriggle room between these two extremes.
 

Geriander

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Or maybe we should simply take aspersions of a disgraced ruler's insanity with a grain of salt, especially when citing an author writing a century after the fact, in an era when historiography was frequently synonymous with political propaganda. I don't know, it seems pretty sensible to apply some Quellenkritik to a source we know to be biased.

But maybe that's just me, it could also be that we have to either accept everything uncritically or discard everything, with no wriggle room between these two extremes.

And how does this give more or less credence to 1) Caligula always being depraved, or 2) Caligula becoming depraved as the result of an illness?

if your argument is that the sources are lying and Caligula was never depraved at all, that is fine but it doesn’t add much to the discussion.
 

trybald

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What we know about Tiberius’ stay on Capri is as well founded as what we know about Tiberius and Caligula in general. We can dismiss it as gossip but lets not pretend that our sources on the rest of their reigns are much better.

Regarding Caligula prior to his illness, you clearly haven’t oaid attention to Suetonius. What is more likely:

1) Caligula made an effort to put up a good front for a few months to gain stable support and then showed his true colours, or

2) A sudden illness turned Caligula into a sexual deviant and tyrant (and the claims of him previously being one were lies).

Nope, it isn't just as founded. What happened in Rome had multiple eyewitnesses and thus plenty of reliable sources for ancient historians to base their narrative on. Tiberius moved Capri specifically to isolate himself. Whatever happened there took place behind closed doors, only witnesses being the Emperor's immediate household and innermost circle. It is therefore nothing surprising in the fact that wild gossip circulated in the capital. It's even less surprising that said sensationalist gossip formed the basis of historical narrative.

As to Caligula, I personally doubt he was mentally ill. His behaviour could be very well explained in the expected behavioral pattern of a young adult from an unloving and uncaring family who was suddenly given absolute power. And got high on it.
 

Acheron

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I Agree, to me all of them are simply people who had their strengths and weakness but in the end one person can only simply do so much and it seems much of an emperors reputation was outside of their Control. Some of them like Augustus was probably very lucky (or unlucky?) to be alive just at the right moment while others was pretty much doomed. In the end it was other people who wrote about the emperors and some of them was made into good ones and some was made into bad ones which to me seems to be tied into politics, often murdered emperors was made into bad ones even if they was no worse than their predecessors or successors while others was made into good ones even if they are simply a single person whose success is built on the work of other persons that are maybe no longer remembered.

Only way I could really give a ranking would be if I had a time machine or something like that and could exactly see Everything that happened at the time and after that make my judgement..
While I also don't like the rankings (feels to one-dimensional to me), I would like to point out that you can judge a ruler by what they do with the opportunities presented to them by the world. Some rulers might be rightly held in high regard simply for preserving their realm in a time of severe crisis. Others might equally rightly be scorned, for while facing no substantial crisis, they didn't do anything but left their realm to stagnation.
 

Semper Victor

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Suetonius is hardly a reliable source. It's so relied upon by historians mainly because him and Tacitus are the only authors whose work covering the full I century CE have survived.

Had he lived today, he'd write gossip for tabloids or disreputable websites; his "greatest hit" in Antiquity together with his "Lifes of the Twelve Caesars" (Vita Caesarum) is a (lost) "Lifes of Famous Prostitutes", so you get an idea. His only other work to have survived is De viris illustribus, another collection of biographies of artists and writers. He also wrote about the most disparate subjects, both in Latin and Greek: Peri ton par' Hellesi paidion (about games in Greece), Peri blasphemion (on insults) and a series of works dealing with the aspects of Roman life: On Roman Dress, On Roman Festivals, On the Roman Year, etc.

Also, his sources are not clear at all. We know he wrote during the reign of Hadrian because another dubious source, the Historia Augusta (HA), says so:

"(Hadrian) removed from office Septicius Clarus, the prefect of the guard, and Suetonius Tranquillus, the imperial secretary, and many others besides, because without his consent they had been conducting themselves toward his wife, Sabina, in a more informal fashion than the etiquette of the court demanded."

This is supported also by the dedication of the Vita Caesarum to his friend Septicius Clarus who was Praetorian Prefect in 119 CE (as confirmed by the HA). The text itself also supports this chronology, as the biographies stop with Domitian. Nerva is left out because he was the "step-grandfather" (if that's even a word) of the ruling augustus Hadrian, and Suetonius had to be careful about offending the ruling dynasty. And given what he liked to write about, he would have offended them all for sure.

We don't know which were his sources, but we know some details about his life because he was a friend of senator Pliny the Younger, who in turn was one of the amici of emperor Trajan, and reached high posts in the administration of the empire during his reign. Pliny the Younger has left a very extense collection of letters, in which he talks about Suetonius more than once, describing him as a quiet man, devoted to books. But Suetonius himself never was a senator, nor did he occupy any real posts of influence, except when at the end of Trajan's reign, thanks to the influence of his friend Pliny he was appointed to three posts that could have allowed him access to important imperial documents:
  • (Secretary) ab epistulis latinis to the emperor (in charge of writing down the official letters of the emperor redacted in Latin).
  • (Secretary) a bibliothecis, responsible of the public libraries in the Urbs.
  • (Secretary) a studiis, which is usually assumed by historians to have meant that he was in charge of the imperial archives.
If the later assumption is true, then Suetonius had access to the Sancta Sanctorum of historical evidence, the wet dream of any historian, and so it's beyond infuriating that he squandered such golden opportunity by writing a collection of gossipy tales dealing mostly with the sexual misdemeanors of the twelve augusti that preceded Nerva. Besides, it's been proved by modern historical research that he just accepted uncritically whatever he found in the archives or in the unnamed sources he used (very common in ancient authors, just think of the strambotic tales included in Pliny the Elder's works).

For example, in the "Life of Vespasian", he copied verbatim the official version of Vespasian's childhood and youth that the Flavians had made available for public consumption. But in her biography of this emperor, modern historian Barbara Levick offered convincing evidence to show that things were quite different in the Flavians' household during Vespasian's early years from what Suetonius wrote.

And similar examples can be found for most of the biographies in Suetonius' work. This means that a critical approach is indispensable when dealing with this (and other) ancient sources. Suetonius did not want to write an erudite collection of biographies for the use and comfort of future historians. He wanted to write an entertainment with an historical background. In this sense, it could be said that it's not an "historical" work at all, but rather a divertimento for the amusement of Roman literati at the expenses of the first twelve augusti.
 
Last edited:

Acheron

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Had he [Suetonius] lived today, he'd write gossip for tabloids or disreputable websites; his "greatest hit" in Antiquity together with his "Lifes of the Twelve Caesars" (Vita Caesarum) is a (lost) "Lifes of Famous Prostitutes", so you get an idea.
I wonder what our image of antiquity would be if the Caesars had been lost and the Prostitutes preserved.
 

Sabotage13

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I wonder what our image of antiquity would be if the Caesars had been lost and the Prostitutes preserved.
We truly live in the darkest timeline.
 

Kokoda

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This may be out of the blue, but couldn't you argue that Julius Caesar was an emperor of rome; the first. he held a lot of power when he was made dictator of rome, or am i wrong?
 

Geriander

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This may be out of the blue, but couldn't you argue that Julius Caesar was an emperor of rome; the first. he held a lot of power when he was made dictator of rome, or am i wrong?

If we count dictators Caesar wouldn't be the first. Even if we only count self-made dictators, i.e. those who take power with military force, Sulla would be the first.
 

demanvanwezel

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This may be out of the blue, but couldn't you argue that Julius Caesar was an emperor of rome; the first. he held a lot of power when he was made dictator of rome, or am i wrong?

but he was never named augustus, there are a lot of men with more power then the emperors during the reigns of the emperors and yet we don't call them emperor

in a way the title augustus which is sort of like a king but "obviously" not was made because caesar was stabbed because he tried to become a king
 

Gurkhal

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I suppose that one could argue that Caesar was the first emperor in a way since Octavian seems to have claimed much from his inheritance from Caesar, both material and immaterial stuff, and so that could be one reason..

Even if I personally agree that Octavian was the first emperor.

EDITED: Fixed an amusing miss.
 

Eusebio

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In the context of this discussion about source reliability I find this quote from Josephus about Nero that's on wiki very interesting:

But I omit any further discourse about these affairs; for there have been a great many who have composed the history of Nero; some of which have departed from the truth of facts out of favour, as having received benefits from him; while others, out of hatred to him, and the great ill-will which they bore him, have so impudently raved against him with their lies, that they justly deserve to be condemned. Nor do I wonder at such as have told lies of Nero, since they have not in their writings preserved the truth of history as to those facts that were earlier than his time, even when the actors could have no way incurred their hatred, since those writers lived a long time after them.

Do we know which historians Josephus might be talking about?
 

Semper Victor

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In the context of this discussion about source reliability I find this quote from Josephus about Nero that's on wiki very interesting:



Do we know which historians Josephus might be talking about?
I don’t know who they might have been. Our main sources about Nero (Tacitus and Suetonius) are themselves posterior to Josephus. But as they didn’t live personally through Nero’s reign, they probably made use of these sources decried by Josephus.
 

Kokoda

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but he was never named augustus, there are a lot of men with more power then the emperors during the reigns of the emperors and yet we don't call them emperor

in a way the title augustus which is sort of like a king but "obviously" not was made because caesar was stabbed because he tried to become a king
It’s an idea but I see your point