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To be fair, thought i don't think that Yugoslavia should be in the game however there are several unrealistic "nations" in the game already - Kingdom of Jerusalem for instance, from what i figure it never existed during the games timeline nor any large drive towards such a country existed.
But instead of a South Slavic union of sorts , because we hated each other even back then, we could have some sort of mutual "aid" events trigger to help against the march of Ottoman hordes into our lands. (like a trigger for manpower , troops or Money) Our hatred for each other is only eclipsed by our common hatred of the Ottoman Turks. (in hate of Turks we are united)
Moreover, i like how Ragusa (dubrovnik ) can turn into Croatia also Croatia (proper) should be in personal Union under Hungary and not just provinces annexed.
Serbia already existed as a Kingdom and Bosnia for a long time split between Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs.
The Idea of Illyria was a Croatian idea to merge other parts of lost territories into a State of "southern slavs" but under Croatian control. What later became SHS (state of Slovenes , Croats and Serbs) but had Zagreb as capital.
I don't get why some Paradoxians are against the formation of ahistorical nations, it is a game were you as the player take control of a nation and can do some pretty darn ahistorical shenanigans as is. Why be against options? The moment a player takes control of a nation he is bound to do some ahistorical shit.
Whom does it hurt to have the option to form Yugoslavia or the freaking EU or even the Emperium of Mankind if someone so wishes.
It hurts the historical aspect of the game - ideally you want something remotely plausible to come out every time you spectate an entire campaign, which won't be the case, should tags like Yugoslavia or EU be implemented. Now I know you'll mention the Roman Empire but that's probably down to there being some ideas / aspirations towards recreating the thing at the time.
Besides, let's be honest - any such tag would should be have an autonomy floor of 75% across the board, constant +10 RR, random stability dropping events out the wazoo and should generally fall apart quite quickly.
Out of interest, when was the Idea of Illyria floated for the first time in Croatia and by whom?
Because, I think, as a modern national culture it should be somehow represented in the game (and Görz and Krain have a lot of development so it wouldn't be too small development-wise)
I also wouldn't mind if Lusatian was added since it is indeed an interesting culture but to be completely honest I would personally prefer something like a Central European culture group over the mostly linguistic ones we have now
I don't believe there is any need for a yugoslav nation. Let's say Serbia takes control of the Yugoslav territories, why would they change the name of their empire, why wouldn't they choose to just stay as "Serbia"? The Yugoslav name is a 20th century political entity based in 20th century politics. If a slavic nation was to conquer its neighbours it would most likely keep the old name to project a dominating position over the other slavs. An Serbian empire would have the name Serbia to reflect the monarchy and aristocracy that's in control. Meanwhile countries like Prussia would change their name to germany if they conquered german lands because they are uniting the german people who are much more homogeneous than the slavs. Germany was also not a new concept and a revival of germany would be pushed to legitimatize and solidify control over the german lands. Yugoslavia does not have the same historical or cultural background.
I'm sorry if you feel prosecuted here at the forum for what you perceive to be a simple change. But this is not something a majority of player care for, nor is there a historical basis for any united Slavic Empires. You are free to make mods.
I think your comments about culture and province changes have more merit and they interest me more. Those are ideas I can get behind. I really think the german culture group is too big, and that west slavic is too small.
Edit: Very sorry for my initial mistake, labeling Albania as a Yugoslav nation.
I don't believe there is any need for a yugoslav nation. Let's say Albania takes control of the Yugoslav territories, why would they change the name of their empire, why wouldn't they choose to just stay as "Albania"?
To be fair, thought i don't think that Yugoslavia should be in the game however there are several unrealistic "nations" in the game already - Kingdom of Jerusalem for instance, from what i figure it never existed during the games timeline nor any large drive towards such a country existed.
Jerusalem, imagjnary? In 1444 there were three kings of Jerusalem. How many kings of Yugoslavia were there in 1444? I think René, John and Fernando all very much would disagree about you regarding their very serious titles being imaginary. Don't disrespect the dead and whatnot.
I think this thread has had a lot of unproductive yelling and arguing, without as much discussion of OP's post as there should be. I'm going to address each of his ideas and give my opinions.
I like the idea of adding more cultures, as long as it's backed up by history, and the culture actually has a majority in a province - Slavic cultures included.
Slovenian culture could be present in the provinces of Gorz and Krain, which are currently home to Austrian culture. Krain could also possibly extended to have a land border with Sopron through Varasd, to basically reflect the areas where Slovene speakers are a majority, at least according to this modern map:
I can't seem to find any sources relevant to EU4's period detailing where Slovenes were a majority, but this is the closest thing to that. This 19th-century map was made during the Slovene national awakening so it likely overstates the Slovenian claims, and also includes areas where Slovenes were a minority, so I think this map would represent a territory greater than even the maximum possible extent of Slovenian culture in EU4 were the devs to add it, barring any conflicting information:
Moravian culture could be present in the lands traditionally called Moravia, represented in EU4 by a single province, Morava. However, it's arguable whether these lands were inherited by people who identified as "Moravian", and it's also up for debate whether a distinct "Moravian" language even existed, or if it's simply a dialect of Czech. Personally I think that this is pretty low-priority, and since it's dubious whether "Moravian" culture is even real, or if it existed in 1444 in a meaningful way, I'd err on the side of caution and keep the Czech culture instead of splitting it into Bohemian and Moravian. If it were added, though, the Margraviate of Moravia could be a releasable tag, since it did have a bit of independence in the century prior to the Rise of the Ottomans start date... Although there are many other polities that also existed then that aren't releasable tags, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
As for Lusatian culture, while today the populations of Lusatia are largely Germanized and Lusatian, or Sorbian language they speak is nearly dead, as far as I can tell from briefly researching it, Sorbs were a majority in that area in 1444, and only truly began to undergo Germanization in around the 16th century. So what I would suggest is changing the provinces Dolni Luzice and Horni Luzice from Saxon, to the West Slavic culture Lusatian or even Sorbian, and have events fire during the course of the game that gradually change the culture of the provinces to Saxon to reflect the process of Germanization.
As for Podlasian culture, I can't find anything at all that indicates that Podlasian (or Podlachian, etc.) is its own distinct culture or language, even historically, and the area seems to be considered the border between Polish and Byelorussian lands, so I can't imagine why a new culture would be added here. There might be other information I'm missing but Podlasian doesn't seem to be a culture at all.
I would agree with adding Slovak to the West Slavic group unless there is some specific gameplay reason why this shouldn't happen, considering Slovak is a West Slavic language, Slovakians are Slavs, and the historical Principality of Nitra was ruled by slavs and may have even been associated with the Mazovians to the west, who are currently in the Czech culture, which is a West Slavic culture as well.
As for Kashubian or other Slavic Pomeranian cultures, those were not majorities in any province after the Germanization of Pomerania during the Ostsiedlung, which was well under way before 1444 and had already relegated slavs to a minority in these areas. So I don't think those merit addition to the game. Perhaps if the start date were earlier.
While I don't like the idea of forming Yugoslavia because the name "Yugoslavia" evokes the idea of the 20th century state, at first I figured the idea of a slavic state rebelling from Ottoman rule was a plausible idea, given that's exactly what would happen later in history. However, the occurrence of such a thing would require Pan-Slavism to exist, and it really didn't come into its own as an ideology until the mid-19th century, after the Napoleonic Wars, and that's more in Victoria's time frame. So I think the current system, where individual slavic polities such as Bulgaria or Serbia, can rebel on their own, makes a lot more sense.
Furthermore, I think that instead of adding a decision to "unite the slavs" into a new tag - because again, a Pan-Slavic state like Yugoslavia is essentially beyond EU4's timeframe, and something like the "Slavic Empire" is pure fantasy - I think it would be better to implement a decision similar to the "Unite Islam" or "Proclaim the Kingdom of God" decisions that doesn't create a new tag, but rather fires an event. If a country in the South Slavic culture group was able to unite that culture group and the general region where it resides, then, perhaps after the Nationalism CB is unlocked, or in the Age of Revolutions, they could take a decision named something like "Embrace Slavic Nationalism" which would reflect the nurturing of a pan-slavic ideal in the Balkans which didn't happen historically, but could have plausibly happened if the area were ruled by south slavs instead of the Habsburgs, Ottomans, etc. Example of such an event:
Embrace Slavic Nationalism Slavic ideologues such as Vinko Pribojevic and Aleksandar Komulovichave, in the past, written of the Slavs as a people, united by a common linguistic heritage. Though various empires of non-Slavs in the east and west have ruled over the Balkan peninsula, its Slavic population has endured. As the ideals of nationalism and self-determination have begun to take hold in Europe, some thinkers have advanced the idea of liberating the Slavic peoples of the Balkan peninsula from foreign oppression, to be ruled by fellow Slavs. If we could accomplish this, we could leverage nationalist tendencies to improve the stability of our nation, bolster the legitimacy of our rule, and ensure the unity of the peoples under our banner.
Potential Requirements:
Diplomatic Tech 23, or the current age is Age of Revolutions, or the year is 1700, for example
Primary culture is of the South Slavic culture group
Any province is of the South Slavic culture group (if it's been wiped out this can't be possible, obviously, shouldn't be much of an issue since AI rarely changes culture iirc)
Any owned province is of the South Slavic culture group
Current tag is Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, or Montenegro (or any other South Slavic primary culture tags that are added e.g. Slovenia)
Allow:
All provinces in the South Slavic culture group are owned by you
Capital province is in the Balkans region
All provinces in the Carniola, East Adriatic, Croatia, Bosnia, Rascia, Serbia, and Bulgaria areas are owned by you (to prevent just exterminating South Slavic culture down to one province then "uniting" it...)
Diplomatic Tech 23 or higher (the tech that enables Nationalism CB)
All provinces are of the South Slavic culture group (if the decision gives the benefits of being a slavic nationalist state, it makes no sense for the decision to be available to multicultural empires, does it?)
Effects:
+50 Prestige
+50 Legitimacy
Gains country modifier "Embraced Slavic Nationalism"
-1.00 National Unrest (you're a slav ruling the slavs, they feel more at home under your rule)
+0.10 Yearly Legitimacy (the people see your rule as more legitimate, and you can claim legitimacy from the ideals of nationalism)
If Russia exists, they could get an event telling them about pan-Slavism and increasing mutual relations between the two countries.
Overall this would be like the "Proclaim the Kingdom of God" decision in that it's just a personal achievement for a player in the Balkans to aim for, and also adds some flavor for the slavic countries there.
I also think that while adding the Sejm as a unique government type for Poland may seem a little redundant, as of right now, Elective Monarchy's tooltip specifically mentions the Sejm, meaning that Elective Monarchy can't really be used for any other tag. This could be a problem in the future, especially since Poland was not the only monarchy with elections during this time period. However I don't have a definite solution, but I suspect with the upcoming changes to Hungary, PDS might already be tackling this.
So TL;DR for OP's Slavic suggestions:
I like the idea of adding Slovenian culture.
Moravian culture seems dubious, not sure if splitting Czech into Bohemian and Moravian really makes much sense esp. since Moravia is one province.
Lusatian culture could be added in Dolni Luzice and Horni Luzice, and over the course of the game they would change to Saxon culture to reflect the Germanization process.
Podlasian culture doesn't seem to exist as far as I can tell, so it shouldn't be added.
Slovakian should probably be in the West Slavic culture group unless there's a gameplay reason why it needs to be in the Carpathian group.
Kashubian/etc. weren't the majority in any province in 1444 so they shouldn't be added. Cultural minorities aren't modeled in EU4 sadly.
Adding Yugoslavia or any other anachronistic/fantasy "pan-slavic" tag is a little ridiculous to me, but introducing a flavor event that could be fired by a Balkan tag in the South Slavic culture group to acknowledge a potential early rise of pan-slavic ideology in a nation that encouraged it would be a nice personal achievement for an ambitious Balkan player to aim for.
Poland already has its own government type, Elective Monarchy, so it doesn't need a new one: the real problem is that no other country can have an Elective Monarchy right now since it specifically references the Sejm.
Very Nice and cool idea by Regaccio about Embrace Slavic Nationalism. We know that Slavic movement starts after French Revolution. It was inspired by that movement.
As another condition I will probably add existence of Russia to Requirements. Because at that point (late 18th century)...slavic people looked up to czarist Russia as only independent slavic state.
This can apply also to Western Slavs easily as they were huge part of the movement.
Also adding short article for people who know nothing about Pan-Slavism. LINK
It seems the new Hungary patch does implement a couple of the things I suggested, like splitting Moravia and making it a releasable tag. Probably wasn't inspired by my post but I'm glad Paradox did them anyway. Adding Belgrade as its own province is also a great idea. Here's to more depth and flavor in EU4.
Since when are slavs one culture? U reduce once again its culture to its language. language not equals culture. why are so many balcan nationalists morons who think it works like 1+1 in maths.
From where would you pop such a "Slavic Empire"? Such an Empire never existed.
While langage takes part in the identification of a culture, it's quite irrelevant here given the differences between the cultures of the Eastern Europe.
While langage takes part in the identification of a culture, it's quite irrelevant here given the differences between the cultures of the Eastern Europe.
In 1444. all Slavic cultures were highly compatible, probably as much as 70 or 80% the same. Whatever difference that existed came from being Catholic of being Orthodox, and religion is simply an aspect of culture, not its entirety.
Even languages were basically just dialects of the same thing, whereas today, for example, your average Russian can understand maybe 40% of South Slavic languages without a lot of practice.
Also not really true.
There are a lot of very different dialects of German language, that you can easily split into separate languages. You also have standardized German now, which helps a lot.
Fact is that Germany is a small place compared to land where Slavs live. But you can split Slavs in smaller groups and you can easily create a standardized language composed of smaller languages(dialects). Example would be Serbo-croatian.
But in 1444 Im sure there were large similarities between now different Slavic groups...
He is kinda right on this. Church is in fact the one that brought written word, books etc. to slavs. It was Latin monks that spread Catholic religion and Latin alphabet, and Byzantine monks that spread Orthodox religion and Cyrillic.
Moreover, i like how Ragusa (dubrovnik ) can turn into Croatia also Croatia (proper) should be in personal Union under Hungary and not just provinces annexed.
You are Croatian and you are going to disagree but it is not really historic isnt it?
In 1444 Ragusa was a lot of things but it was certainly not Croatian. And forming Croatia from it is just stupid.
And Hungary took over the rule over Croatia maybe 3 centuries before game start... so how does that fall under PU?
I know what you are going to say - "But there were still Croat nobles in power over there". Yes but you can also argue that every other group had nobles, but that didnt make them independent...
Serbia already existed as a Kingdom and Bosnia for a long time split between Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs.
No, Bosnia is now split between Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs. Back then it had a Bosnian church that pretty much meant you can believe in any form of Christianity you want, and you also had a lot of Catholic Serbs in coastal regions.
Just speaking about Balkan...
Uniting it in EU time frame is stupid. There would never be any kind of Yugoslavia or Illyria or whatever.
What is more realistic is that Orthodox countries like Greek states, Serbia, Bulgaria, Wallachia etc. would claim Emperor title if they were able to liberate Constantinople.
That is realistically speaking the only tag switch that should be possible on the Balkan. Be Orthodox and liberate Constantinople.
That last bit is quite a decent shout actually. IRL Everyone would clamour to get that empire rank, should they take Constantinople. Maybe even a sort of "universal partriarchy". Probably nowhere near worth it though
Also not really true.
There are a lot of very different dialects of German language, that you can easily split into separate languages. You also have standardized German now, which helps a lot.
Fact is that Germany is a small place compared to land where Slavs live. But you can split Slavs in smaller groups and you can easily create a standardized language composed of smaller languages(dialects). Example would be Serbo-croatian.
But in 1444 I'm sure there were large similarities between now different Slavic groups...
I have to respectfully disagree with you here. The German dialectical split is and was much less meaningful than the slavic split in the time-frame of the game. However, I think we need to distinguish if we are talking about a 15th century Yugoslavia or Slavic empire. A yugoslavia like nation is more realistic because the language barriers are smaller (but still not trivial, imho). A slavic empire is not realistic however if it is to encompass bulgaria and Serbia for example. When it comes to the formation of a yugoslav nation, I refer to my previous comment in this thread.
Also, furthermore. The balkans are a much more mountainous region with few major rivers. This would further drive a wedge between the different population groups who would have less communication between each other. A good example of this is Norwegian dialects, Hungary or languages in the persia region - all of which have had different cultures develop because of geographical obstacles.
Germany in this time period however was less diverse because of the large rivers like the Rhineland where major population centers developed. These population centers had a lot of influence over the neighboring regions, and populations and aristocracy could move around easier because of the relatively flat landscape of northern germany, as well as the rivers there. Now, the two dialects that really stand out are Austrian and Bavarian. But these examples further proves my point as they are both in the mountainous south. But these regions can be interpreted as separate regions to Germany. Germany can exist as an Empire without these territories (this is reflected in the provinces needed to form germany in EUIV, as they are almost exclusively situated in the flat german north).
Can't add anything really fruity into the discussion, but as a "czech culture forumist" I can at least say this:
1) Moravian culture is not really a thing, certainly not in a way EU IV handles cultures, it's merely czech people with a slight dialect and many local customs, not "different" people
2) Slovaks really belong to west slavic culture group, totally different language and culture as well. They are in carpathian group purely because of "game balance", as devs said many times before, although I can't see why can't they just become accepted culture instead.
It always feels weird when in EU IV you go "save your slavic slovakian brothers as Bohemia" and the slovaks really hate you for that.
