Lets have a taste of AI insanity

[Moser]

Somebody said on here that he looked through the Credits, and said there was only one person on AI. I'm not sure how true that is. But I keep hearing over and over again on the forums that there's only one AI programmer on the Team, or at least only one full time.

Are you really saying that more AI programmers wont help? Getting more manpower wont do anything?

According to a dev diary released on September 28, the team is 11 strong with one dedicated AI programmer -- who would be SteelVolt.

 

[lanmancz]

I absolutely agree with the well written criticisms in this thread. Both HOI4 and Stellaris are a disaster since release. Lately I've only started new games after some big patch was released only to find out that pretty much all the issues are still there. And I check these forums from time to time to see new progress. I'm a sucker, I bought TFV on day one hoping that it would improve the game but it didn't. I can certainly tell you that my patience is running thin and seeing the state of these new releases I will think twice before buying another Paradox game because I absolutely hate paying for being a beta tester. I spend my money on games to have fun during my free time, not to beta-test a game I've payed full price for! I agree that the game since launch is basically a public beta, an early access and not a finished game.

 

[KaeI]

The fact to don't buy DLC can also be ineffective since they will consider the game to be non-profitable and stop devellopment and we will only have a game that will only be in an early access state.

 

[Filou]

LOL. A developer actually took time to inform us that the solutions to these issues are not as easy as some folks want them to be. (And he did this while on holiday too.) And within the first hour, somebody has Respectfully Disagreed with his post. Seems to me that some folks have closed their minds and can't be swayed from their emotional take on the matter. They're not coming here to learn, to educate themselves or help the community in any way (or even to post in some people's cases, LOL). They are simply mad and will down-vote any post from whatever source that doesn't agree with their negative mindset, even if it's a developer himself. They know better. But at least they're happy.

LOL indeed. BjornB is not a developper. The title clearly states★Community Manager★. There is a significant difference.
The devs are on vacation, but Bjorn is not on the dev team. Looking at Bjorn's posting history over the last 2 weeks, I'd guess that vacation time was the week between Christmas and new year. Now it's back to business.
You're extrapolating a lot from one dislike.

The information has been stated a few times already, like since the very begging of the complaints on the AI.
So there's nothing groundbreaking about that post, neither in content nor timing.
You're extrapolating a lot from one dislike.

 

[Napoleonetniet]

tbh i think some are just poking their head in here every now and then, from home/vacation because they're thát much engaged, can't let go completely.. and/or even miss us a bit

 

[Luis Pocho]

I think it's been established in the numerous threads that are very similar to what this has become: throwing money at the situation won't necessary help.

Here is the thing: AI issues are probably one of the worst/most complicated types for us to investigate, so it is absolutely vital that I get as much data as possible. Our AI coder has to take a direct look at the AI while the game is running to identify which part of the vast AI code is at fault.

A work that needs to get a lot of data and investigate countless scenarios? It does sound like a work that needs more than a few workers to me...

 

[Schatten51]

I've about had enough of your blatant attempts to turn this into an "us against them" issue with your rhetoric.
You're painting a whole group of people as "angry, whiny, spoiled brats who can't shut up and enjoy a game". Give up. We know what we are frustrated about and it's not simply a case of being unable to appreciate the game.

Yes, we know their initial releases leave a lot to be desired.
Yes, we know it's Paradox's policy to release a game, then saturate the title with dozens of DLCs (even though it only started happening only recently).
Yes, we know it's been the case for a number of years.

It doesn't matter. Those are not the underlying issues. You seem like a clever fellow, so you might have been able to see why people are disgruntled, if you chose to understand rather than attack and paint a whole portion of the community with a broad, patronising brush.

The very fact that Paradox has been doing this for years is not a good enough reason to be satisfied with their product, not by a long shot.
Their own studio games had always had a patchy initial release, but they were rarely unplayable to this extent and for this long. For god's sake, just go and compare patch notes between HoI2 and HoI4; the difference is simply huge. What's more, in HoI2 patch1.2 they added new stuff to the game like "large amounts of pictures" and "ministers, leaders & techteams to almost every nation" amongst other things. TfV has basically done the same, but with a $15 price tag.
With HoI3 came four exhaustive patches before the first expansion pack was released.

So when you look at their previous releases you see that in fact, this has not always been how Paradox had conducted themselves. In the past, they allocated more time and effort to fixing the game first and releasing DLCs second. HoI4 is in the worst state Paradox has ever released a game, but despite this, they seem to allocate more resources to DLCs and expansions, before fixing the biggest problem their game has. THIS is the biggest problem we have. People already paid (significantly) more than they had for any other previous release of a HoI game AND for a HoI game that is at it worst state upon release, and to add insult to injury, they now find themselves in the unenviable position of having to pay even more for stuff that only marginally improves the game and does nothing or very little to fix some of the biggest problems it has.

This is an abominable breach of trust between the customers, nay, fans and the studio. We have tolerated less than perfect releases in the past and bought the expansions afterwards, because Paradox has shown us that they were commited to fixing the game first, before releasing satisfying expansions and they mostly succeeded at it. We trusted them to do the same with this release, but after 8 months we have 3 patches that doesn't even come close to fixing the biggest problems the game has, numerous useless DLCs and a major expansion that doesn't deserve the name and would have been released as part of a free patch in the past.

The "ongoing support through patches" is a marketing term that insults the intelligence of customers. It is unacceptable to release games that barely hold together and then claim that "it is a business model that the fans want". I'm sorry, but piss off. Nobody wants that. We tolerated it in the past because Paradox was a small indie company with a handful of staff in a shed. Today, Paradox is a multi-millon dollar company with a handful of staff in a million dollar office building. The only way it would be acceptable to release games in this sorry state and then take years to fix is if they priced it at ~$10 with the words "EARLY ACCESS" written over it in big, bold letters. Earlier HoI games released a number of full patches in the first year, adding new stuff and fixing most of the games issues, before they released an expansion pack.

Do you now understand why people are unhappy? It is not about "this has always been the way", because it has not been. It is about a breach of trust between the studio and the fans. Most people who express their dissent in social media platforms and in the forums are long time fans. They tolerated this business model for years because they always saw an effort on the studio's part that they were working hard to fix the issues. They are not seeing that approach anymore. This whole releasing an expansion before fixing the issues fiasco, added to the fact that the said expansion barely deserved the name and included stuff that the fans were used to getting as part of a free patch (and rightly so) has violently shaken people's belief that Paradox was acting honestly and to the users' benefit. Though not announced publicly, we understand from bits and pieces in the devs' comments in the forums that releasing an expansion was a priority and that there's only one guy working full time on the AI. That just saddens me.

I, and apparently many like me, are deeply disappointed with Paradox.
This is why we take to the forums and vent our grievances, because we want the studio to hear us and change their behaviour before it is too late.

Oh and one last thing: I hear people like yourself keep uttering the same thing over and over; "don't buy the DLCs/expansions/game if you don't like it". That betrays a clear ignorance about psychology and economics. See there's this thing called sunk cost fallacy and that is why people keep buying DLCs and expansions even when they are unsatisfied with the game. They are hoping that by buying those stuff, they'll eventually have something that is enjoyable. This is also how most "free-to-play" games that sell gems and **** make their money. We don't want Paradox games to be like that and that includes you as well. We don't want to buy dozens of DLCs and expansions when the game is released unfinished and the only way to make it finished is through buying those stuff. HoI4 is showing clear signs of that approach. We really, really don't want that.

I can only agree 100% with all that and i was with Paradox since EU 1 and EU Rome till EU 4.
And to make it even more worst, its not only HOI4...Stellaris is 1:1 absolutly same unplayable and with non-working AI (but with a, of course payable, DLC with cosmetic shit and things players have made bevore as mods)...hell the so called *AI* in both Games are so bad, they could delete it completly and replace with *if than* triggers and it would make zero difference.
Both Games are latest releases at same time and shows that Paradox runs in same direction where CA and EA are....flashy games with non AI at all and sucking as much money as possible from customers bevore next shit is relased.
I didnt buy any of the HOI4 and Stellaris DLC , i dont plan do it an dim pretty sure if a next paradox game comes out i will handle it in samw way as a CA Game...look if its worthy to buy after 1 or 2 years of patches and if its a discount bundle.
Congratulations @ Paradox Management, what for sucess....
release 2 or 3 more games like HOI4 and Stellaris and you can look for a new job.......

 

[janbo55]

A work that needs to get a lot of data and investigate countless scenarios? It does sound like a work that needs more than a few workers to me...

Not more ai developers, but more QA. You may in the beginning need more AI developers in the beginning of the development, but halfway through or after launch, it's just finetuning. I'd much prefer SteelVolt took his time to find the correct solution incrementely, rather than having more hands on board, which would just cause chaos/confusion in AI development.

The solution isn't to be faster at fixing AI, the solution is to do more QA.

 

[AlanC9]

I would really hope not. It would just make their lives harder.

How do you figure that the devs' lives are made harder by going with this strategy? The model's working, apparently. They're working, and getting paid for that work, and any backlash to the strategy seems to be more-or-less hypothetical at this point.

 

[Exterous]

Stellaris was rushed out as well. The major end game crises, were the biggest selling point of the game, and two of the three were utterly broken at launch. All you had to do was play the game through and you'd find it.

Thats one of the things that has annoyed me about the responses from Paradox. Now I'm not saying this in response to this particular issue but the 'send a save game' mantra is tiresome - you don't need a save game to see many of the problems. Take the division spam in Africa - myself and numerous others were asked for save games. With the massive\wide spread reporting of the issue I can't believe that everyone at Paradox was unable to recreate the issue without a save game. ALL of my games and ALL of many other players games had the issue but for some reason all these save games were needed (or at least that was the impression given). Just play the game and you would see it. Spend 10 minutes and run a hands off game and its right there.

If I am noticing an issue with every one of my games it seems like they are not actually playing their own games to test. In my most recent 1.3.1 game I saw the following: US with no medium tanks by 1945, Russia at -22000 infantry equipment, France leaving the Maginot line, the allies throwing 11,000 airplanes into a province they have 1 airbase in while I have air superiority in three surrounding areas using 800 fighters and those are just off the top of my head.

I'm contemplating a game where I just keep every single save game so I can file a bug report after bug report. But then I think why do I want to do that? That isn't fun to me. I didn't buy this so I would have a task or chore to do.

So instead I didn't buy the expansion. For the first time in my HOI history I did not buy a game or expansion ahead of time. I'll wait till it goes 50 or 75% off. Because thats what Stellaris and HOI IV have done to me - turned me from a loyal Paradox customer into one who won't pay full or close to full price. But maybe I don't buy enough of their games for them to care. I used to think they did. Some of the employees probably still do and it must be hard for them. But I really don't feel like Paradox overall cares anymore

 

[Taciturn Scot]

Some people do, some people do not. Maybe you're accustomed to lesser quality. Personally I loath the garbage they put in steam and call games.

Well, the answer I was looking for but genuinely not expecting to get was because I researched my purchase thoroughly before handing over my money and I knew what I was buying. Therefore, I have no buyer's remorse.

(I'm no longer talking to you from this point in my post but to the thread in general)

My mind is not clouded by any idealism where I blindly expect a game to be released in a 'near-perfect condition because they damned well should be and I'm not wrong to expect that' either and therefore absolved of all responsibility to research my purchase and take responsibility for it afterwards. "How DARE anyone expect ME to take responsibility!"

Neither am I so utterly and painfully naive that I expect marketing to tell me anything negative about a product they're trying to sell. Good luck with that, folks LOL

And I'm not even going to bother addressing the emotional guff that follows Searry's post in this thread. I've said what I wanted to say. Those that have ears to hear will hear and those that don't (for whatever reason) won't. A more responsible, adult and mature approach to making purchase decisions is all that's needed to avoid this unpleasantness. I don't expect that to happen though but I've got to try. Maybe somebody will change their habits in the future and be happier in the future as a result.

 

[Taciturn Scot]

You're extrapolating a lot from one dislike.

Nine at the time of posting this, actually. I just anticipated correctly, that's all

 

[Searry]

@Taciturn Scot I personally do not have buyers remorse. Rather I'm disappointed in pdx's inability. I did watch several streams about the game but they never could prepare me for the worst and for what was to come.

I think the point is still that pdx disappointed people with their bad product. Not marketing or naivete.
Can't you see that people just want a good game?

You're also very rude.

 

[Taciturn Scot]

@Taciturn Scot I personally do not have buyers remorse. Rather I'm disappointed in pdx's inability. I did watch several streams about the game but they never could prepare me for the worst and for what was to come.

I think the point is still that pdx disappointed people with their bad product. Not marketing or naivete.
Can't you see that people just want a good game?

You're also very rude.

LOL. You're not reading what I'm writing at all, are you? I'm not 'not seeing' anything at all.

'Rude' is not the word you're looking for. 'Frank' describes me better but I know, it's not potentially as hurtful to me as calling me rude is.

 

[Searry]

Sure buddy. Whatever you say.

 

[gulzadan]

LOL. You're not reading what I'm writing at all, are you? I'm not 'not seeing' anything at all.

'Rude' is not the word you're looking for. 'Frank' describes me better but I know, it's not potentially as hurtful to me as calling me rude is.

'Conceited' might be a better description of the way you interact here.

 

[Filou]

Nine at the time of posting this, actually. I just anticipated correctly, that's all

Make that 10 then but I'll expand on my thoughts

We're 6 months after release and glaring issues are still present.
Well, if the reports are to be believed I still haven't bought in.

So let's see...
-AI programing is very complex.
-Takes time and is somewhat a balancing act.
-HoI the most complex in Paradox's library.
-The AI has to be kept at a decent to very good shape in an environment where the DLC model adds new features on a regular basis.

Put all these things together and one wonders if the overall AI budget is appropriate. The whole budget, coding and testing.
So, @BjornB one can increase the AI budget without going into 'throwing money at the problem' mode.

 

[mackau]

Thats one of the things that has annoyed me about the responses from Paradox. Now I'm not saying this in response to this particular issue but the 'send a save game' mantra is tiresome - you don't need a save game to see many of the problems. Take the division spam in Africa - myself and numerous others were asked for save games. With the massive\wide spread reporting of the issue I can't believe that everyone at Paradox was unable to recreate the issue without a save game. ALL of my games and ALL of many other players games had the issue but for some reason all these save games were needed (or at least that was the impression given). Just play the game and you would see it. Spend 10 minutes and run a hands off game and its right there.

If I am noticing an issue with every one of my games it seems like they are not actually playing their own games to test. In my most recent 1.3.1 game I saw the following: US with no medium tanks by 1945, Russia at -22000 infantry equipment, France leaving the Maginot line, the allies throwing 11,000 airplanes into a province they have 1 airbase in while I have air superiority in three surrounding areas using 800 fighters and those are just off the top of my head.

I'm contemplating a game where I just keep every single save game so I can file a bug report after bug report. But then I think why do I want to do that? That isn't fun to me. I didn't buy this so I would have a task or chore to do.

So instead I didn't buy the expansion. For the first time in my HOI history I did not buy a game or expansion ahead of time. I'll wait till it goes 50 or 75% off. Because thats what Stellaris and HOI IV have done to me - turned me from a loyal Paradox customer into one who won't pay full or close to full price. But maybe I don't buy enough of their games for them to care. I used to think they did. Some of the employees probably still do and it must be hard for them. But I really don't feel like Paradox overall cares anymore

To me, either Paradox don't care about QA and testing, and thus miss everything they should be seeing........ or they do have reasonable QA & testing, and find these errors but don't care about fixing them.

HOI 4 has the AI issues. Stellaris has sectors.

Neither seemed to be tested thoroughly, neither were acceptable at launch. Arguably they still aren't.

 

[Taciturn Scot]

'Conceited' might be a better description of the way you interact here.

Conceited? Confrontational perhaps. I'm not sure what I have to be conceited about anyway but I get that my posting style rubs you up the wrong way, you're angry with me and feel a need to express it. That's the Internet for you. As it happens, I'm not the guy downvoting posts made by Paradox staff or getting worked up because a QA guy is guiding someone to post an issue in a manner that might actually help them to fix it.

 

[Taciturn Scot]

Just out of curiousity, are you guys aware that we can see who has downvoted our posts by hovering the the mouse over our profile name at the top and clicking 'Ratings Received'? It's not anonymous.