To be fair though there was widespread upset and community pressure to push the game out in 2016 after the previous two cancelled release dates.
- 6
Lets have a taste of AI insanity
- Thread starter maurel
- Start date
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- Status
True. That's probably why they're taking so long with announcing Vicky 3.
- 3
I'm never going to believe that management found this game fit for release on June 6, 2016. There are just too many obvious problems that had to be known to Paradox, and yet they still sold it to us. What does that say about Paradox management in how they see customers?
I don't blame the developers. It's obvious they are way understaffed and unable to cope with the magnitude of unfinished work and software bugs. Even a few tweaks here and their by modders can avoid some of the drastic AI behavior, but yet the staff must have so little manpower to even explore these options themselves.
Let's call it for what it really is. HOI IV is a disaster. A disaster perpetrated, not only onto its customers, but also onto its developer team. It's woefully under-cooked. It's not being fixed nearly fast enough. It's already seen one DLC release when major core systems are still broken.
I pity everyone here. Customers, QA, and the development team. This disaster is a failure straight from the top. Paradox Interactive has to release a certain number of games -- at a certain frequency -- to grow revenue. It's crucial for their quarterly reports to share holders.
Look at that increase in revenue from last year helped, in part, by HOI IV.
Successful release? In terms of what? Quality? Customer base satisfaction? No, successful only in terms of sales.
Yes, internal developer teams that you have starved of manpower to properly support your "most successful" games. How about using that extra profit to pay for few more programmers?
I almost choked on this point. A priority, huh?
This....this is just lying to yourself or twisting the facts. Has management gone through the forums, or even Reddit, and read what their loyal fan base says about their game. Or are they just happy with superficial scores on Steam?
If by reading anything, management is very happy with HOI IV's revenue performance, and thus, in their eyes, must be doing something right. In other words, shareholders > customers.
I really pity the poor dev team, especially how demoralizing it must feel.
Oh, dear lord, that earnings report made me gag.
- 12
Yeah I recall Johan saying somewhere after what happened with East v West and Hearts of Iron IV, they will stop announcing games too early before they have something of substantial quality (so probably in Alpha state).
If they're going to release a half-baked product, they should at least have the resources available to ensure the major problems post-release are fixed up in a reasonable time frame. Instead, it feels this development team has one hand tied behind their back because they aren't getting proper resources from up the chain to help them fix the major issues plaguing this game since June 6. It should be an all-hands-on-deck attitude from Paradox, but instead it looks to be a barebones team scrapping by with these huge post-launch problems.
I get it, Paradox. You want to free up resources to work on new IPs, but the SP experience is just a disaster, and resources need to be freed to fix your current IPs before your new customers, like myself, abandon this ship. I do appreciate the dev team's work on 1.3 which has finally mitigated some of the programming bugs that has hindered tinkerers and modders from improving certain aspects of the game, but there are still major design issues, such as the AI's use of the battle planner, division spam, lack of AI checks, etc. that greatly reduce the quality of the single player experience.
Forgive me for ranting, but I'm just losing my patience with this post-launch support process. I see so much potential in HOI IV, and I get excited when I see the AI fight it out over huge fronts, but then I just get so frustrated when I see Germany abandon the northern half of its front with the USSR and lose a whole year's worth of hard fought territorial gain for absolutely no logical reason. Or the endless suicidal British naval invasions that is still not curbed since ironically -- the anniversary of D-Day. How can one even play SP when the AI is just so inept in its decision making? It's just not fun at all.
Imagine playing a game of football where the first half of the game seems to be a good match. Then the other team randomly forfeits during the second match -- every damn time. You repeat this process maybe fifty times. You then go to the official and point out the other team and say "If people told us the other teams would just forfeit the match, then maybe we would have never signed up." They encourage you and say soon a new team will be there that won't forfeit, and you'll have a good match. And then you start a new match, and you see the other team is perhaps playing a little better, but still find a way forfeit in the second half. The officials say "We know. We are working on it. By the way, could you...perhaps...help us. We need a lot of information to find why the other teams are forfeiting." You think to yourself. Well, this is an odd request. They forfeit so often, it should be reproducible each time. Why would they need us to provide them with the information anyway? Shouldn't the football management have enough resources to find out themselves? You then realize its not just your team experiencing the problems. Many others are having horrible football experiences, and are being asked to help the officials.
A few months later, the officials announce that they have finally brought in some opponents that won't give up halfway through the match anymore. You are really excited. Finally! Let's have a great match! You play the other team. At first, it's a good match. They score several times on you. Then halfway through the second half -- the other team starts having more and more players. The growth is exponential. There are so many players on their side of the field, and then they stop advancing and scoring. They do some musical number where they shuffle back and forth -- back and forth -- back and forth -- back and forth -- for what seems an eternity. One player even runs off the field on his own -- yelling something about a Victory Point. You are flabbergasted. This isn't much of an improvement! Sure they play a little better, but they still give up completely with this non-sense. Soon, the game has to stop because the other team has effectively stopped playing. You go to the officials and complain. They acknowledge the problems, and ask for more information from you -- to help them solve it.
Just in time for Christmas, they tell you that there is a new, better football pitch available for purchase and it'll come with a new team that should play better. You don't even need to buy the new pitch. The new, improved team can be played against for free. As a token of gratitude from upper football management. You happily fork over the money anyway because you are desperate for some kind of improvement, and plus, you think the officials are really cool guys. You meet the new opposing team on the new shiny pitch. Hey, this is pretty cool!, you think to yourself. You shake hands and begin the new match. The other teams seems play a little better. It now moves the ball around a little more effectively. You think to yourself, Hey, this isn't so bad. Then they start multiplying again and do that strange musical number where they just constantly swap positions on the field. You wait things out and realize that the new players start to arrive without any equipment on -- there just isn't enough to go around -- they're absolutely naked and unprotected. There also isn't enough food and water. Some of the players start to get cold -- others begin to get hungry. Next thing you know the other team's players start dropping dead -- but in slow motion. Then you realize its not slow motion. There are so many bodies on the field that the space-time itself is warped by the appalling amount of mass. The game clock has slowed to a slow crawl. It's a horror show to witness -- slow deteriorating deaths. You can't stand it anymore. You decide to go home -- depressed over what you saw after hoping so much that things would be different.
Finally, you have had enough and decide to stop playing for a while. While at home, you pick up the newspaper, and you read an article about how the management of the football league is celebrating its "successful games", everything is fine and dandy, and that profits are going up. You shake your head and sag in disappointment. How did it come to this?
I get it, Paradox. You want to free up resources to work on new IPs, but the SP experience is just a disaster, and resources need to be freed to fix your current IPs before your new customers, like myself, abandon this ship. I do appreciate the dev team's work on 1.3 which has finally mitigated some of the programming bugs that has hindered tinkerers and modders from improving certain aspects of the game, but there are still major design issues, such as the AI's use of the battle planner, division spam, lack of AI checks, etc. that greatly reduce the quality of the single player experience.
Forgive me for ranting, but I'm just losing my patience with this post-launch support process. I see so much potential in HOI IV, and I get excited when I see the AI fight it out over huge fronts, but then I just get so frustrated when I see Germany abandon the northern half of its front with the USSR and lose a whole year's worth of hard fought territorial gain for absolutely no logical reason. Or the endless suicidal British naval invasions that is still not curbed since ironically -- the anniversary of D-Day. How can one even play SP when the AI is just so inept in its decision making? It's just not fun at all.
Imagine playing a game of football where the first half of the game seems to be a good match. Then the other team randomly forfeits during the second match -- every damn time. You repeat this process maybe fifty times. You then go to the official and point out the other team and say "If people told us the other teams would just forfeit the match, then maybe we would have never signed up." They encourage you and say soon a new team will be there that won't forfeit, and you'll have a good match. And then you start a new match, and you see the other team is perhaps playing a little better, but still find a way forfeit in the second half. The officials say "We know. We are working on it. By the way, could you...perhaps...help us. We need a lot of information to find why the other teams are forfeiting." You think to yourself. Well, this is an odd request. They forfeit so often, it should be reproducible each time. Why would they need us to provide them with the information anyway? Shouldn't the football management have enough resources to find out themselves? You then realize its not just your team experiencing the problems. Many others are having horrible football experiences, and are being asked to help the officials.
A few months later, the officials announce that they have finally brought in some opponents that won't give up halfway through the match anymore. You are really excited. Finally! Let's have a great match! You play the other team. At first, it's a good match. They score several times on you. Then halfway through the second half -- the other team starts having more and more players. The growth is exponential. There are so many players on their side of the field, and then they stop advancing and scoring. They do some musical number where they shuffle back and forth -- back and forth -- back and forth -- back and forth -- for what seems an eternity. One player even runs off the field on his own -- yelling something about a Victory Point. You are flabbergasted. This isn't much of an improvement! Sure they play a little better, but they still give up completely with this non-sense. Soon, the game has to stop because the other team has effectively stopped playing. You go to the officials and complain. They acknowledge the problems, and ask for more information from you -- to help them solve it.
Just in time for Christmas, they tell you that there is a new, better football pitch available for purchase and it'll come with a new team that should play better. You don't even need to buy the new pitch. The new, improved team can be played against for free. As a token of gratitude from upper football management. You happily fork over the money anyway because you are desperate for some kind of improvement, and plus, you think the officials are really cool guys. You meet the new opposing team on the new shiny pitch. Hey, this is pretty cool!, you think to yourself. You shake hands and begin the new match. The other teams seems play a little better. It now moves the ball around a little more effectively. You think to yourself, Hey, this isn't so bad. Then they start multiplying again and do that strange musical number where they just constantly swap positions on the field. You wait things out and realize that the new players start to arrive without any equipment on -- there just isn't enough to go around -- they're absolutely naked and unprotected. There also isn't enough food and water. Some of the players start to get cold -- others begin to get hungry. Next thing you know the other team's players start dropping dead -- but in slow motion. Then you realize its not slow motion. There are so many bodies on the field that the space-time itself is warped by the appalling amount of mass. The game clock has slowed to a slow crawl. It's a horror show to witness -- slow deteriorating deaths. You can't stand it anymore. You decide to go home -- depressed over what you saw after hoping so much that things would be different.
Finally, you have had enough and decide to stop playing for a while. While at home, you pick up the newspaper, and you read an article about how the management of the football league is celebrating its "successful games", everything is fine and dandy, and that profits are going up. You shake your head and sag in disappointment. How did it come to this?
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1- I already knew of the bugs before making this "test" so the metodology doesn't matter to me, i am just making a show, it was intended as a joke and not a report originally.
2- I added the new airports out of a joke, i already knew before that they would not use their airforces in SA
3- Historical focuses is to force everyone to go historical except for thoses 2 countries.
4- Even if they are not in a faction they will not use their airforces. but they will not redeploy troops elsewhere.
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Thank you for taking time during the holidays to check into the forums and be patient with those who are willing to provide helpful feedback.
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I now know never to buy a game that on release has an option to give you the option to get the next two DLC's at a discount (pay upfront but lower overall). I'd rather just wait.
That is a clear sign that the game is not finished and they need money.
I enjoyed the game initially as I have never played HOI before, but I cannot play without mods anymore and as of right now I barely have any interest in playing.
That is a clear sign that the game is not finished and they need money.
I enjoyed the game initially as I have never played HOI before, but I cannot play without mods anymore and as of right now I barely have any interest in playing.
- 6
Well, seeing as how it's considered good to have a rant now and then and that it's still the season of goodwill towards all men (except game developers and their testers and QA staff of course), why not? I see that 2017 is off to a fine start and bodes well for the future. Reading Yahoo News comments and comments on Youtube indicate that there are a very small number of extremely angry people who feel it their moral obligation to vent their 'righteous' outrage and hate for the 'other' at every opportunity. To spin any information to cast it in the worst possible light to inflame emotions of other similarly inclined or gullible readers and where there is no information, to speculate the worst yet post as if it were gospel. To insult and intimidate anyone, no matter how well informed their opinions might be.
Sorry folks, but the vast majority of folks are not angry, are not outraged and the launch of this game is not a disaster at all. If Paradox publish a report that states that they have a steady number of 1.5 million people playing their games, there ARE 1.5 million people playing steadily. There are, what, about 200-300 people posting here with any great frequency and of those, there are some very, very angry and frustrated folks. That's a tiny fraction of a percentage point of their regular player base.
This is a HOBBY. It's supposed to be a fun, recreational activity and many, many people ARE getting great pleasure from this game but have no interest in getting involved in discussions online for very, very good reasons. Further, it's not even an expensive hobby by most standards. Hell, I spend far more on books every month than I do on computer games. And books have doubled or tripled in price over the last 10-20 years whereas computer games have not risen by nearly as much.
Why do some people still completely fail to understand that the computer gaming industry has changed, that the DLC model has already been the standard for some time and will be in the future, that this IS a popular model with the majority of the hobbyists in spite of the few bad apples in the barrel. If you hate this business model and feel that all this should have been in the game on release or that we are entitled to all this work for free, it's time to find a new hobby, or at least move to a developer other than Paradox who are one of the proud pioneers of this model. And, YES, Paradox are a business with shareholders and they're doing this for money. Shame on them! Shame! (Sometimes, this smacks of pure jealousy to me. Store clerks, bank clerks and accountants bored and frustrated, madly envious that other people are making a good living making games.)
Why do some people feel that they are being ripped off and lied to when they make impulsive, poorly researched purchases and then blame the developers and insult both the developers and the people who dare, DARE to support this 'despicable practice that is killing the hobby for all of us'? WE, the happy 'few' need to be driven off for the 'common good' and that such behaviour is righteous and honourable because these fanatics think that they are saving the hobby. Our positivity needs to be silenced or shouted down so that the devs are sent a clear and loud message, that 'we' are angry and demand change.
Games have never been perfect. I have been playing them since the very start and they've often been unfinishable due to bugs. 8-bit text adventures would suddenly go into an endless loop and crash, shooters would crash etc, etc. Bugs have always been there. Further, the level of sophistication in games has grown tremendously as well. It's not just graphics, the AI has to be able to play the complex systems that we demand in our strategy games.
I used to be a proper Beta tester, i.e. I had to sign a NDA which I am still bound to and I know that games are extremely complex things to create, especially with respect to AI and when it comes to layers of sophistication, Paradox games are about as complex as it gets. Frankly, the fact that the game is already so playable is a testimony to the skill of the AI programmer, Steelvolt. While I'm sure he'd appreciate a bit more positive feedback, I'd wager his bosses know what a sterling job he's done so far and so his job is quite safe despite the baying for blood on these forums.
When I read Gaga Extreme's requests for saves and properly documented reports, I see him treating you guys as mature individuals who have a genuine interest in helping to make this game better. And he (she?) gets 'righteously' bitch slapped in public for doing so by some overly idealistic posters. Hopefully, s/he knows better now and that reason doesn't work with this community. You're not interested in helping and you're bloody mad that anyone has the temerity to suggest that you report bugs in a manner that might actually help them to identify the problem and fix it. It's 'their' job to find and fix this and not sell us this 'unfinished crap!'
There. End of rant.
And yes, I do feel better.
Sorry folks, but the vast majority of folks are not angry, are not outraged and the launch of this game is not a disaster at all. If Paradox publish a report that states that they have a steady number of 1.5 million people playing their games, there ARE 1.5 million people playing steadily. There are, what, about 200-300 people posting here with any great frequency and of those, there are some very, very angry and frustrated folks. That's a tiny fraction of a percentage point of their regular player base.
This is a HOBBY. It's supposed to be a fun, recreational activity and many, many people ARE getting great pleasure from this game but have no interest in getting involved in discussions online for very, very good reasons. Further, it's not even an expensive hobby by most standards. Hell, I spend far more on books every month than I do on computer games. And books have doubled or tripled in price over the last 10-20 years whereas computer games have not risen by nearly as much.
Why do some people still completely fail to understand that the computer gaming industry has changed, that the DLC model has already been the standard for some time and will be in the future, that this IS a popular model with the majority of the hobbyists in spite of the few bad apples in the barrel. If you hate this business model and feel that all this should have been in the game on release or that we are entitled to all this work for free, it's time to find a new hobby, or at least move to a developer other than Paradox who are one of the proud pioneers of this model. And, YES, Paradox are a business with shareholders and they're doing this for money. Shame on them! Shame! (Sometimes, this smacks of pure jealousy to me. Store clerks, bank clerks and accountants bored and frustrated, madly envious that other people are making a good living making games.)
Why do some people feel that they are being ripped off and lied to when they make impulsive, poorly researched purchases and then blame the developers and insult both the developers and the people who dare, DARE to support this 'despicable practice that is killing the hobby for all of us'? WE, the happy 'few' need to be driven off for the 'common good' and that such behaviour is righteous and honourable because these fanatics think that they are saving the hobby. Our positivity needs to be silenced or shouted down so that the devs are sent a clear and loud message, that 'we' are angry and demand change.
Games have never been perfect. I have been playing them since the very start and they've often been unfinishable due to bugs. 8-bit text adventures would suddenly go into an endless loop and crash, shooters would crash etc, etc. Bugs have always been there. Further, the level of sophistication in games has grown tremendously as well. It's not just graphics, the AI has to be able to play the complex systems that we demand in our strategy games.
I used to be a proper Beta tester, i.e. I had to sign a NDA which I am still bound to and I know that games are extremely complex things to create, especially with respect to AI and when it comes to layers of sophistication, Paradox games are about as complex as it gets. Frankly, the fact that the game is already so playable is a testimony to the skill of the AI programmer, Steelvolt. While I'm sure he'd appreciate a bit more positive feedback, I'd wager his bosses know what a sterling job he's done so far and so his job is quite safe despite the baying for blood on these forums.
When I read Gaga Extreme's requests for saves and properly documented reports, I see him treating you guys as mature individuals who have a genuine interest in helping to make this game better. And he (she?) gets 'righteously' bitch slapped in public for doing so by some overly idealistic posters. Hopefully, s/he knows better now and that reason doesn't work with this community. You're not interested in helping and you're bloody mad that anyone has the temerity to suggest that you report bugs in a manner that might actually help them to identify the problem and fix it. It's 'their' job to find and fix this and not sell us this 'unfinished crap!'
There. End of rant.
And yes, I do feel better.
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Great thread! It highlights important problems and contains a lot of civil and constructive criticism. Here's my 2 cents.
AI development in video games always has an inherent problem: It comes last. While stuff like music and art can be done in parallel to the rest of the development, the AI programming only can really start after the mechanics are set in stone and only when there is a testable product. Since pretty much every software product gets delayed during development, and development costs and time get cut in the last stages, the AI and the performance are the aspects of a game that always suffer most from release pressure (together with stability, which is surprisingly good for HOI4).
That's why AI sucks in most video games (it is bad in every game I know and own).
That being said, PDX really should've learned by now and diverted even more ressources to AI development before release. If memory serves me right there were two people working on the AI before release and only one after, even though the issues must have been known, because Paradox placed more importance on play testing games in the recent past.
Personal sidenote: I enjoy the game for the most part and as a Field Marshal Edition owner I will only judge the game after I get the 3rd DLC.
AI development in video games always has an inherent problem: It comes last. While stuff like music and art can be done in parallel to the rest of the development, the AI programming only can really start after the mechanics are set in stone and only when there is a testable product. Since pretty much every software product gets delayed during development, and development costs and time get cut in the last stages, the AI and the performance are the aspects of a game that always suffer most from release pressure (together with stability, which is surprisingly good for HOI4).
That's why AI sucks in most video games (it is bad in every game I know and own).
That being said, PDX really should've learned by now and diverted even more ressources to AI development before release. If memory serves me right there were two people working on the AI before release and only one after, even though the issues must have been known, because Paradox placed more importance on play testing games in the recent past.
I guess there also was internal pressure, since the game has been in development for years. That's a big investment and managers usually want to see profit asap.
Personal sidenote: I enjoy the game for the most part and as a Field Marshal Edition owner I will only judge the game after I get the 3rd DLC.
- 1
Hi guys,
First of all, we'd like to ask everyone to keep to the "Great Official AI Thread" for AI discussions, thank you.
If you want to make a more elaborate report of a specific issue, then the bug report forum is the place to go.
We do not wish to get back to a situation where we have 10 active threads on pretty much the same issue, demanding our frequent answers in all of them. Thank you for understanding. If we can keep things well organized it will help us work out solutions to problems much easier, and I'm sure that is what we all want the most.
First of all, we'd like to ask everyone to keep to the "Great Official AI Thread" for AI discussions, thank you.
If you want to make a more elaborate report of a specific issue, then the bug report forum is the place to go.
We do not wish to get back to a situation where we have 10 active threads on pretty much the same issue, demanding our frequent answers in all of them. Thank you for understanding. If we can keep things well organized it will help us work out solutions to problems much easier, and I'm sure that is what we all want the most.
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- 2
Thats the post truth era for youWell, seeing as how it's considered good to have a rant now and then and that it's still the season of goodwill towards all men (except game developers and their testers and QA staff of course), why not? I see that 2017 is off to a fine start and bodes well for the future. Reading Yahoo News comments and comments on Youtube indicate that there are a very small number of extremely angry people who feel it their moral obligation to vent their 'righteous' outrage and hate for the 'other' at every opportunity. To spin any information to cast it in the worst possible light to inflame emotions of other similarly inclined or gullible readers and where there is no information, to speculate the worst yet post as if it were gospel. To insult and intimidate anyone, no matter how well informed their opinions might be.
Sorry folks, but the vast majority of folks are not angry, are not outraged and the launch of this game is not a disaster at all. If Paradox publish a report that states that they have a steady number of 1.5 million people playing their games, there ARE 1.5 million people playing steadily. There are, what, about 200-300 people posting here with any great frequency and of those, there are some very, very angry and frustrated folks. That's a tiny fraction of a percentage point of their regular player base.
This is a HOBBY. It's supposed to be a fun, recreational activity and many, many people ARE getting great pleasure from this game but have no interest in getting involved in discussions online for very, very good reasons. Further, it's not even an expensive hobby by most standards. Hell, I spend far more on books every month than I do on computer games. And books have doubled or tripled in price over the last 10-20 years whereas computer games have not risen by nearly as much.
Why do some people still completely fail to understand that the computer gaming industry has changed, that the DLC model has already been the standard for some time and will be in the future, that this IS a popular model with the majority of the hobbyists in spite of the few bad apples in the barrel. If you hate this business model and feel that all this should have been in the game on release or that we are entitled to all this work for free, it's time to find a new hobby, or at least move to a developer other than Paradox who are one of the proud pioneers of this model. And, YES, Paradox are a business with shareholders and they're doing this for money. Shame on them! Shame! (Sometimes, this smacks of pure jealousy to me. Store clerks, bank clerks and accountants bored and frustrated, madly envious that other people are making a good living making games.)
Why do some people feel that they are being ripped off and lied to when they make impulsive, poorly researched purchases and then blame the developers and insult both the developers and the people who dare, DARE to support this 'despicable practice that is killing the hobby for all of us'? WE, the happy 'few' need to be driven off for the 'common good' and that such behaviour is righteous and honourable because these fanatics think that they are saving the hobby. Our positivity needs to be silenced or shouted down so that the devs are sent a clear and loud message, that 'we' are angry and demand change.
Games have never been perfect. I have been playing them since the very start and they've often been unfinishable due to bugs. 8-bit text adventures would suddenly go into an endless loop and crash, shooters would crash etc, etc. Bugs have always been there. Further, the level of sophistication in games has grown tremendously as well. It's not just graphics, the AI has to be able to play the complex systems that we demand in our strategy games.
I used to be a proper Beta tester, i.e. I had to sign a NDA which I am still bound to and I know that games are extremely complex things to create, especially with respect to AI and when it comes to layers of sophistication, Paradox games are about as complex as it gets. Frankly, the fact that the game is already so playable is a testimony to the skill of the AI programmer, Steelvolt. While I'm sure he'd appreciate a bit more positive feedback, I'd wager his bosses know what a sterling job he's done so far and so his job is quite safe despite the baying for blood on these forums.
When I read Gaga Extreme's requests for saves and properly documented reports, I see him treating you guys as mature individuals who have a genuine interest in helping to make this game better. And he (she?) gets 'righteously' complain slapped in public for doing so by some overly idealistic posters. Hopefully, s/he knows better now and that reason doesn't work with this community. You're not interested in helping and you're bloody mad that anyone has the temerity to suggest that you report bugs in a manner that might actually help them to identify the problem and fix it. It's 'their' job to find and fix this and not sell us this 'unfinished crap!'
There. End of rant.
And yes, I do feel better.
- 8
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I love it when people say "I saw on reddit, Youtube, the forums, in MP games, on Steam, Steam Reviews, Grey Market forums, from my friends, from the neighbor, from some guy screaming on the corner, that a small minority of very angry posters are angry."
Im not angry. Im not in a minority.
Im just pointing out that the game is subpar with regards to the AI. Which is even an opinion held by the review writers of Rockpapershotgun, Kotaku, Gamespy, et all.
I also dislike being minimized and stereotyped.
The "millions playing, handful posting" comment isnt backed up by anything other than the posters feelings and anecdotes. You dont see anyone else saying "Its only a minority who thinks the AI is good". Even though ill bet you couldnt find a majority to say its good. Possibly adequate, but without any data, im not going to be a nub and make that claim.
Im not angry. Im not in a minority.
Im just pointing out that the game is subpar with regards to the AI. Which is even an opinion held by the review writers of Rockpapershotgun, Kotaku, Gamespy, et all.
I also dislike being minimized and stereotyped.
The "millions playing, handful posting" comment isnt backed up by anything other than the posters feelings and anecdotes. You dont see anyone else saying "Its only a minority who thinks the AI is good". Even though ill bet you couldnt find a majority to say its good. Possibly adequate, but without any data, im not going to be a nub and make that claim.
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This sounds similar to my last game...Japan had massive forces in Norway and Mongolia, so I ran a check and they had 1 division in the home islands, with the enemy still in the Phillipines, SEA, and southern China. Crazy.
Yeah, it's not constructive to be cast as some self-righteous dissenter who is apparently very angry and very vocal -- only because I have a strong criticism of one of the core pieces of the game. I'm guessing it was meant to be some indirect blow toward me because I mentioned (God forbid) Reddit, albeit I was just mentioning another large community where the AI is frequently discussed and criticized. On the contrary, that community often shows off wonderful examples of how the Hearts of Iron series shines. If anything, my post history would show that up to now, I've been nearly silent with my criticism.
I do have a strong opinion about the state of the game upon release. I do think its AI, as sold, is a disaster, and I'll stand by that opinion. It's in no way, a sleight at the development team; I've always felt they are the real victims in being forced to release and then support an unfinished, unready game by Paradox -- unless they do actually feel it was ready for mass consumption which I doubt. And I hold those who decided to release it in its unfinished state accountable. I don't find anything wrong with that assessment. Hearts of Iron 4 is not the only game that was launched when it surely wasn't ready. I remember the juggernaut Battlefield 4 was a huge mess with its bugs, stability, and server issues, and much of it was reported on in the press. I found that to be fair. Electronic Arts must have learned something from that mess because their recent launch of Battlefield went much more smoothly and players are much more content -- although it's not perfect.
Nobody is asking for perfection here. We all knew the game would not have the level of polish the older entries in the series had after all their updates. I just didn't expect the level of incompetence when it came to the AI in nearly all aspects of the game -- production priorities, division spam, broken templates, abandoned fronts, suicide invasions, unnecessary DOW, lack of AI checks, etc. It was no way shape or form ready for release. It needed at least 8-12 months of work, judging by how its coming along (slowly but steadily) since the first patch. Without a competent AI, there is not a Hearts of Iron to me (I avoid MP like the plague).
And don't really see this as a DLC argument either. I've never held resentment over DLC releases -- for any game. One can research whether or not they think a DLC is worth it on their own. I'd just rather it would wait, or rather the release of the game wait, until it met some minimum threshold of quality.
And I understand how difficult and finicky of a job programming, so that's why I'd wish management would get on the ball here and give our poor boys, who have to rewrite entire portions of the code from what I've read, some additional help. From what I know, it's only 2-3 people working on the AI. How much could it possibly cost Paradox, a corporation that made $30M in profit last year, to hire a few more able-bodied individuals to help them on one of their flagship games?
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I know it's a different game, but it's pretty similar in concept, but how can a game/series like EU have good/great AI while it is next to horrendous for HOI?
I think most of us wouldn't be here if we weren't fairly loyal to Paradox. The fact that the complaints are so widespread says something.
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Combat (and a lot of other basic stuff) in EU4 is very similiar to EU3 (and Vicky 2), so there was *a lot* more time to iterate on AI behaviour. If you look back, you'll see that the difference in AI quality between EU3 and EU4 is massive.
HOI on the other hand has a significantly more detailed and complex military/combat system and there where big changes related to those game mechanics between HOI3 and HOI4.
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