That is -100 for Sikh conversion and another -50 for reconversion plus you lose all your allies. Don't do this at home, kids! Let the adults handle it. No running with scissors.
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Let's All Play Together: Lan Na! Community Nation Discovery
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It's more like running while juggling 2-3 pairs of scissors, but what better way for one to get his jollies?!
I had trouble expanding for awhile with Lan Na due to alliance blocs and no one making a move, so even with the earlier Karma numbers I never really ran into problems. After the latest changes I've been flirting with +50 Karma levels multiple times. Part of this is due to a string of accepting CtAs and getting into lucrative wars without having to actually declare (force-vassalizing and inheriting a war that way).
I feel like the Karma mod numbers aren't really that bad for the average player (events seem to fire rather quickly). The bigger issue for me is the narrow range of -25 to +25 where you enjoy any benefits. The empty space at -50 to -25 and 25 to 50 feels awkward.
I'd prefer to see that area filled with one half of the bonuses, so at -50 to -25 you get only the dip bonus and at 25 to 50 you get only the discipline bonus.
The penalty layers could be subdivided as well, so that at -75 to -50 you only get a 5% discipline penalty, and at 50 to 75 you get only a -1 reputation penalty.
I'd also like to see the Karma penalty removed when giving land to allies in war. I don't want to have to choose between -10 Karma and a relations penalty with my ally when they occupy a claimed province of an enemy in my war. It's already bad enough to pay DIP and warscore for it; the Karma loss just adds to the pain of what's already a pretty suspect action strategically. Sure returning cores is free (and even gives Karma), but it's claims that pose the real problem.
I feel like the Karma mod numbers aren't really that bad for the average player (events seem to fire rather quickly). The bigger issue for me is the narrow range of -25 to +25 where you enjoy any benefits. The empty space at -50 to -25 and 25 to 50 feels awkward.
I'd prefer to see that area filled with one half of the bonuses, so at -50 to -25 you get only the dip bonus and at 25 to 50 you get only the discipline bonus.
The penalty layers could be subdivided as well, so that at -75 to -50 you only get a 5% discipline penalty, and at 50 to 75 you get only a -1 reputation penalty.
I'd also like to see the Karma penalty removed when giving land to allies in war. I don't want to have to choose between -10 Karma and a relations penalty with my ally when they occupy a claimed province of an enemy in my war. It's already bad enough to pay DIP and warscore for it; the Karma loss just adds to the pain of what's already a pretty suspect action strategically. Sure returning cores is free (and even gives Karma), but it's claims that pose the real problem.
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I'd actually like to see the +50 Karma effect be positive, given the way EU4 has been designed as primarily a conquest game. The current -2 dip penalty isn't terribly plausible (hey, that really nice ruler doesn't seem to go on the rampage very often, let's hate them for it!) and doesn't really fit with the broader gameplay mechanics.
A Chain of Wars
Fernando Po was uncolonized, but Portugal had nabbed Sao Tome. I planted a colony nearby in Gabon, fabricated, and put troops on the isle. Portugal tried to respond immediately, but I had a few heavies nearby and sank their fleet. They didn't try anything further.
Of course they were allied with Castile, and the local AI thought this meant it would be a swell time to declare war on me and/or my allies (as though I was actually fighting Iberians; Castile was embroiled in the League Wars). Bengal was first, with its ally Yarkand. We outnumbered them, but my tech was still behind, so it was a very bloody war that drained most of my manpower. Before that completed, Chagatai launched an assault on my ally Tibet, bringing in a powerful Jaunpur. I had three active wars, and Ming loomed.
I managed to peace out Portugal for Sao Tome, first by getting a white peace from Castile. From Bengal I just took a couple hundred ducats; we had not managed to take any of its forts, and it didn't seem worth the effort at this stage to try to cripple them. I wanted to Westernize quickly. That left just the war with Chagatai and Jaunpur, which I honestly couldn't have cared much less about. I had been hoping to ally Jaunpur to wield against Bengal after all. I fought one battle for Tibet, but I didn't have the manpower or the will to keep throwing troops at them when they reinforced and returned. I withdrew, leaving Tibet to lose a chunk of land to the nomads.
Modernization
After that began the Westernization. It was painful as usual; when the treaty with Bengal ended, they attacked my longtime ally Ava, and I had to dishonor the call. The rebel-stomping and bottomed-out values for legitimacy, traditions, etc left me in no condition to help against Bengal again.
It is now 1588 and Westernization is complete. My legitimacy is in the tank, but my manpower has recovered, and I still have a bunch of ducats in the bank. I did manage to conquer half of Khmer during this period, and I colonized a bunch, including a decent chunk of Malacca and most of South Africa. I also had a 0/0/1 heir die of illness, and the follow-up 2/5/1 heir also died of illness at age 1; I'm currently without an heir, though my 4/1/0 ruler is still fairly young.
I'll be catching up in tech probably through 1625 or so, avoiding most offensive wars (I'll probably finish off Khmer but leave the rest). Westernizing eliminated my entire rivals list; literally the only nation I now qualify to rival is France, oddly. Hopefully this will keep Ming at bay while I finish catching up (and if they try to Westernize they'll probably collapse).
Looking Ahead With Common Sense Features
Once I'm done Westernizing I can pretty much do whatever I like. Typical late-game conquer sprees isn't an option unless I stack Discipline bonuses to counter the penalty that such actions will force on me (as I'll always be at -100 Karma with that playstyle). Now that I've Westernized I can no longer vassalize / diplo-annex any nations in my vicinity; I'd have to travel all the way over to Muslim tech lands to be able to do this.
However, Common Sense allows you to seize territory from a Protectorate at a small temporary penalty to liberty desire. So basically, what I need to do is use force release, core return, and focused conquering to weaken my strong neighbors, Protectorate everything I can (this does not take up a diplo slot!), then seize territory constantly. This should allow me to expand at a healthy rate without tanking my Karma, but it's going to require a whole lot more work than anything I've ever tried in EU before.
Influence won't help much with this method since it doesn't involve annexation and I don't need the relations bonus. Perhaps Humanist is the way to go here? I'm guessing seized territory doesn't come along in a docile state like diplo-annexed territory, but I've never tried. Religious isn't really necessary because I already have good local CBs from Expansion (and I can go into the Andes shortly with Exploration's CBs), though if I want to force-convert everything to Buddhist I'll probably need it. If only the Devoutness idea had a Buddhism-related bonus; something like a monthly +1/-1 Karma modifier (whichever direction takes you closer to 0).
I have plenty of time to figure it out, though, since I have a lot of teching to do before I can bother with ideas (and my next idea group will be military anyway). I'll see how the Protectorate thing functions first-hand and figure out what I need most. Maybe I can do this with Khmer to save on Admin points while I regain tech.
Fernando Po was uncolonized, but Portugal had nabbed Sao Tome. I planted a colony nearby in Gabon, fabricated, and put troops on the isle. Portugal tried to respond immediately, but I had a few heavies nearby and sank their fleet. They didn't try anything further.
Of course they were allied with Castile, and the local AI thought this meant it would be a swell time to declare war on me and/or my allies (as though I was actually fighting Iberians; Castile was embroiled in the League Wars). Bengal was first, with its ally Yarkand. We outnumbered them, but my tech was still behind, so it was a very bloody war that drained most of my manpower. Before that completed, Chagatai launched an assault on my ally Tibet, bringing in a powerful Jaunpur. I had three active wars, and Ming loomed.
I managed to peace out Portugal for Sao Tome, first by getting a white peace from Castile. From Bengal I just took a couple hundred ducats; we had not managed to take any of its forts, and it didn't seem worth the effort at this stage to try to cripple them. I wanted to Westernize quickly. That left just the war with Chagatai and Jaunpur, which I honestly couldn't have cared much less about. I had been hoping to ally Jaunpur to wield against Bengal after all. I fought one battle for Tibet, but I didn't have the manpower or the will to keep throwing troops at them when they reinforced and returned. I withdrew, leaving Tibet to lose a chunk of land to the nomads.
Modernization
After that began the Westernization. It was painful as usual; when the treaty with Bengal ended, they attacked my longtime ally Ava, and I had to dishonor the call. The rebel-stomping and bottomed-out values for legitimacy, traditions, etc left me in no condition to help against Bengal again.
It is now 1588 and Westernization is complete. My legitimacy is in the tank, but my manpower has recovered, and I still have a bunch of ducats in the bank. I did manage to conquer half of Khmer during this period, and I colonized a bunch, including a decent chunk of Malacca and most of South Africa. I also had a 0/0/1 heir die of illness, and the follow-up 2/5/1 heir also died of illness at age 1; I'm currently without an heir, though my 4/1/0 ruler is still fairly young.
I'll be catching up in tech probably through 1625 or so, avoiding most offensive wars (I'll probably finish off Khmer but leave the rest). Westernizing eliminated my entire rivals list; literally the only nation I now qualify to rival is France, oddly. Hopefully this will keep Ming at bay while I finish catching up (and if they try to Westernize they'll probably collapse).
Looking Ahead With Common Sense Features
Once I'm done Westernizing I can pretty much do whatever I like. Typical late-game conquer sprees isn't an option unless I stack Discipline bonuses to counter the penalty that such actions will force on me (as I'll always be at -100 Karma with that playstyle). Now that I've Westernized I can no longer vassalize / diplo-annex any nations in my vicinity; I'd have to travel all the way over to Muslim tech lands to be able to do this.
However, Common Sense allows you to seize territory from a Protectorate at a small temporary penalty to liberty desire. So basically, what I need to do is use force release, core return, and focused conquering to weaken my strong neighbors, Protectorate everything I can (this does not take up a diplo slot!), then seize territory constantly. This should allow me to expand at a healthy rate without tanking my Karma, but it's going to require a whole lot more work than anything I've ever tried in EU before.
Influence won't help much with this method since it doesn't involve annexation and I don't need the relations bonus. Perhaps Humanist is the way to go here? I'm guessing seized territory doesn't come along in a docile state like diplo-annexed territory, but I've never tried. Religious isn't really necessary because I already have good local CBs from Expansion (and I can go into the Andes shortly with Exploration's CBs), though if I want to force-convert everything to Buddhist I'll probably need it. If only the Devoutness idea had a Buddhism-related bonus; something like a monthly +1/-1 Karma modifier (whichever direction takes you closer to 0).
I have plenty of time to figure it out, though, since I have a lot of teching to do before I can bother with ideas (and my next idea group will be military anyway). I'll see how the Protectorate thing functions first-hand and figure out what I need most. Maybe I can do this with Khmer to save on Admin points while I regain tech.
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I'm not doing ironman and I rolled back when I did something incredibly stupid, shit happens.
Anyways, here's how it all ended first:
Ava and Hsenwi are vassals.
The stupid thing I did was that when I went to war to vassalize Ava Hsenwi and Ayutthaya jumped on it too. So far all good, I beat them to all important sieges, vassalized Ava and inherited the war with Hsenwi(I always forget this is a thing!). So I went for it, destroyed Hsenwi, noticed there was no way on earth I'd be able to do the same with Ayu and settled for Hsenwi as a vassal.
The moment they accepted peace Ayu and Bengal(my rivals) immediately supported independence. Since I'd never dealt with that kind of thing before all my attempts to bring LD down(up to annexing Lan Xang because I didn't know the strenght of all countries supporting a subject are factored into their LD, not only yours) were in vain. Game officially ended when Bahmanis rivaled me out of nowhere, supported Hsenwi and they declared on me.
The current branch:
This time around I settled for a white peace with Hsenwi as soon as I could. From there it was all smooth sailing: beat Lan Xang's cores out of Dai Viet when they were tired from fighting Champa, force-vassalized Ayu after Ligor and half a dozen sultanates wiped them clean, beat Champa(in 2 steps, actually. The screenshots are from shortly after I finished them off) for some Ayu cores they had, failed in exploiting a window for diplovassalizing Hsenwi(orz, so close), beat Dai Viet for two provinces so I could vassalize them afterwards(and grabbed a couple provinces off their ally Hsenwi so I can force vassalize them later anyway), beat the crap out of Ligor for Ayu's cores when they were vulnerable, went back to force-vassalize Dai Viet and finally Arakan accepted being diplo-vassalized by me.
Right now I'm thinking of capitalizing on how Bahamis are piling up on Bengal to get an Ava core out of them and maybe release a few poor souls, but I'm not sure. My manpower is still in the dregs and I fear destabilizing Bengal too much would lead into someone even worse blobbing on my doorstep.
On the other hand I'm failing miserably in converting to hinduism(sorry alpaca, I really wanted to try hindu at least once). I could get them to rebel, but how do I keep my vassals and allies from just beating down the rebels? Or is it better to release every tag I can so I can instantly accept demands?
Oh, and Ming crumbled! I heard this is a rare sight in 1.13. I don't think I'd be doing half as good as I'm doing now if it weren't for that. On my failed game they remained stable, warned me and started eating Dai Viet, that was scary.
Anyways, here's how it all ended first:
Ava and Hsenwi are vassals.
The stupid thing I did was that when I went to war to vassalize Ava Hsenwi and Ayutthaya jumped on it too. So far all good, I beat them to all important sieges, vassalized Ava and inherited the war with Hsenwi(I always forget this is a thing!). So I went for it, destroyed Hsenwi, noticed there was no way on earth I'd be able to do the same with Ayu and settled for Hsenwi as a vassal.
The moment they accepted peace Ayu and Bengal(my rivals) immediately supported independence. Since I'd never dealt with that kind of thing before all my attempts to bring LD down(up to annexing Lan Xang because I didn't know the strenght of all countries supporting a subject are factored into their LD, not only yours) were in vain. Game officially ended when Bahmanis rivaled me out of nowhere, supported Hsenwi and they declared on me.
This time around I settled for a white peace with Hsenwi as soon as I could. From there it was all smooth sailing: beat Lan Xang's cores out of Dai Viet when they were tired from fighting Champa, force-vassalized Ayu after Ligor and half a dozen sultanates wiped them clean, beat Champa(in 2 steps, actually. The screenshots are from shortly after I finished them off) for some Ayu cores they had, failed in exploiting a window for diplovassalizing Hsenwi(orz, so close), beat Dai Viet for two provinces so I could vassalize them afterwards(and grabbed a couple provinces off their ally Hsenwi so I can force vassalize them later anyway), beat the crap out of Ligor for Ayu's cores when they were vulnerable, went back to force-vassalize Dai Viet and finally Arakan accepted being diplo-vassalized by me.
Right now I'm thinking of capitalizing on how Bahamis are piling up on Bengal to get an Ava core out of them and maybe release a few poor souls, but I'm not sure. My manpower is still in the dregs and I fear destabilizing Bengal too much would lead into someone even worse blobbing on my doorstep.
On the other hand I'm failing miserably in converting to hinduism(sorry alpaca, I really wanted to try hindu at least once). I could get them to rebel, but how do I keep my vassals and allies from just beating down the rebels? Or is it better to release every tag I can so I can instantly accept demands?
Oh, and Ming crumbled! I heard this is a rare sight in 1.13. I don't think I'd be doing half as good as I'm doing now if it weren't for that. On my failed game they remained stable, warned me and started eating Dai Viet, that was scary.
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Are you running +3 advisors yet? If not, I'd use this period to go into Malacca and try to get hold of Zanzibar. It sounds like you already have cape, so grab CoTs in Malacca and grab pretty much everything you can in Zanzibar. Land should be cheap so you should be able to core it reasonably enough while still grabbing techs. Then it's off to India to drive their trade as well. That should set you up monitarily for admin efficiency.
Keep in mind if you have money you'll be able to pass on advisors until you get a discipline advisor, so make the MIL tech one that gets a 5% discipline bonus, and you should be set in no time. I doubt the penalty will hurt much until you fight Europeans anyway.
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I'm still trying this but I've lost count of the number of restarts I've had. Better read up on what people have done, I think...
You can also look on my video - there is some basic tips how to go for starting opening.
But if you have problems with later parts, then yeah, read what other people posted - 1
I've got an OK attempt going now I think, but yeah, it has been the start. Taungu wasn't rolling over for me and always got allies after my day 1 DOW. (Solution: attack Pegu instead. Worked like a charm.)You can also look on my video - there is some basic tips how to go for starting opening.
Day 0 DoWs have been seriously nerfed with the ability to call allies after the war starts. I think it's better to wait until the blocks form, then declare with good knowledge of what you're getting into in most cases. Some are still useful, like Muscovy declaration on Novgorod, but in a start like this it's a risk.
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That's probably where I was going wrong - that tactic worked well in 1.12, though. I agree with you, knowing the blocs is the way to do it.
Here's where I'm up to:
Keep tabs on who Ayutthaya is at war with. They tend to make really squishy targets.
Edit: Welp. Looks like I'm restarting again. :/ Curse my impatience
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I lost my second playthrough to impatience as well (and I think my third, while we're at it
). It's a great start for promoting that patient 'wait for the right moment' gameplay, as there are lots of potential pitfalls if we don't!
Okay, so, these pics / this update is just before I did something godawful stupid.
Xi, Malacca, Garjat, and Da Viet are my vassals. South Lan Na is ruling Australia for me.
From the last point:
I opened exploration (and finished it) and it was going well until somehow those pesky Madagascar natives managed to beat my 5k army that was stationed there and destroyed a colony at 900+. That set me back a good deal as far as making it around the horn. As it happened, it didn't matter. While I have seen Portuguese, English and Castilian fleets, they haven't colonized the Cape yet and I'm in position there to stop them up. I hadn't intended to go after Australia so hard but two different events started new colonies there so and two missions had me colonize there. So... take what you get. I'm subsidizing them to speed up their growth - I'm hoping they can help supply ships for my inevitable conflicts with...well, everyone.
Administration was my second idea (3 or 4 deep - needed cheaper mercs, see below). I'll go Arist or Quantity third but I haven't pushed for it (then religion or influence, both badly needed).
China -
I broke into Ming just as they were losing lands and triggered another collapse, breaking Xi out of them on the peace deal and eventually helping myself to a bit more as well.
India and mid-Asia:
Breaking U-tsang, Nepel, and even into Shun was relatively straightforward. I used one of the typical Indian slaughterfests to jump around Bengal and vassalized Garjat and took a bunch of coastal minors out. I haven't pushed further because the major powers were all hair-triggered for a bit.
Africa -
Once I settled the coast I started claiming and moving on the gold mines. My eventual goal is to just push all the way up the coast, taking out everyone until I reach... well, until I feel someone could stop me from moving more.
Religion:
I actually had to let rebellions happen twice before I finally was "forced" to convert to Hindu. Stupid rebels broke the wrong direction and started taking over areas that were already Hindu before ever so helpful vassals broke away from the "stay on me command' during a war and slaughtered them. Second time I managed to "push" them into Lan Xing territory where they converted enough to push me over the 50% mark (with my Indian possessions). I'm still way behind on actually converting things, despite a pretty solid conversion strength.
Problems: Manpower - I haven't been able to run my manpower over 10k since the start and can't come anywhere close to my force limit with my income. Income and some barracks are (were) starting to turn that around.
Stupid mistake: Everything was set up well. I was about to do a minor war in China for a bit more land - Yue probably. But I was checking the alliance web in India, waiting for the weak point to break you know. And accidentally hit the declare war button instead of closing the window when looking at the Malwa alliance web. So... now I'm at war with Bengal, Baluchistan, Malwa, and Juanpar (plus vassal Multan). Which, if I'd been prepped would have worked okay but I was at 3k manpower and my main army was in Africa with another chasing rebels. So - 5 loans and 30ish mercenary companies later....
So - I'll survive this but my economy is all screwed up and I've got about crap for standing army and the Europeans are coming...
Xi, Malacca, Garjat, and Da Viet are my vassals. South Lan Na is ruling Australia for me.
From the last point:
I opened exploration (and finished it) and it was going well until somehow those pesky Madagascar natives managed to beat my 5k army that was stationed there and destroyed a colony at 900+. That set me back a good deal as far as making it around the horn. As it happened, it didn't matter. While I have seen Portuguese, English and Castilian fleets, they haven't colonized the Cape yet and I'm in position there to stop them up. I hadn't intended to go after Australia so hard but two different events started new colonies there so and two missions had me colonize there. So... take what you get. I'm subsidizing them to speed up their growth - I'm hoping they can help supply ships for my inevitable conflicts with...well, everyone.
Administration was my second idea (3 or 4 deep - needed cheaper mercs, see below). I'll go Arist or Quantity third but I haven't pushed for it (then religion or influence, both badly needed).
China -
I broke into Ming just as they were losing lands and triggered another collapse, breaking Xi out of them on the peace deal and eventually helping myself to a bit more as well.
India and mid-Asia:
Breaking U-tsang, Nepel, and even into Shun was relatively straightforward. I used one of the typical Indian slaughterfests to jump around Bengal and vassalized Garjat and took a bunch of coastal minors out. I haven't pushed further because the major powers were all hair-triggered for a bit.
Africa -
Once I settled the coast I started claiming and moving on the gold mines. My eventual goal is to just push all the way up the coast, taking out everyone until I reach... well, until I feel someone could stop me from moving more.
Religion:
I actually had to let rebellions happen twice before I finally was "forced" to convert to Hindu. Stupid rebels broke the wrong direction and started taking over areas that were already Hindu before ever so helpful vassals broke away from the "stay on me command' during a war and slaughtered them. Second time I managed to "push" them into Lan Xing territory where they converted enough to push me over the 50% mark (with my Indian possessions). I'm still way behind on actually converting things, despite a pretty solid conversion strength.
Problems: Manpower - I haven't been able to run my manpower over 10k since the start and can't come anywhere close to my force limit with my income. Income and some barracks are (were) starting to turn that around.
Stupid mistake: Everything was set up well. I was about to do a minor war in China for a bit more land - Yue probably. But I was checking the alliance web in India, waiting for the weak point to break you know. And accidentally hit the declare war button instead of closing the window when looking at the Malwa alliance web. So... now I'm at war with Bengal, Baluchistan, Malwa, and Juanpar (plus vassal Multan). Which, if I'd been prepped would have worked okay but I was at 3k manpower and my main army was in Africa with another chasing rebels. So - 5 loans and 30ish mercenary companies later....
So - I'll survive this but my economy is all screwed up and I've got about crap for standing army and the Europeans are coming...
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Eventually you'll run into a start where Ayutthaya is friendly and you can day 0 ally them. I had them friendly in the 3rd start (first 2 their super general stomped my army in ridiculously OP fashion. Wish I had recorded that). It's a whole different world. Just start by cleaning up the North then.
Also, keep your eyes open for a war where you declare on someone and another country dogpiles late. Vassal them instead of taking land so you inherit the war, then since it's a defensive war, call in the white elephant to help out. I'd be sure you're comfortable fighting the war without their help, but it never hurts to waste their manpower instead of yours.
*giggle* I laugh because I've been there. Insult to injury is usually the fact that when I do it I don't have a CB so +2 war exhaustion, -2 stab, and +20 AE before I've done anything.
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I'll make another post later when I'm around my screenshots, but I've played through 1675 and really noticed a bunch of things mechanics-wise.
First, the Karma issue has not in any way been a roadblock for me. I wasn't aware beforehand, but provinces you take with stuff like Overseas Expansion drastically tank the Karma loss on seizing provinces from your war target. And of course, as a Westernized Lan Na, most of your neighbors are subject to this awesome CB. I've actually gone to war, taken seven or eight provinces, and wound up gaining more than 30 Karma in the end just from stuff like releasing minors or returning a couple cores (at zero DIP cost). I've even been taking Karma penalty options on events to keep the Karma under 25.
That said, the primary reason this hasn't been an issue for me has been the complete lack of Admin points. I'm running +2 advisors all around, and I've finally had a couple good rulers, but even with all that it took me until around 1660 to get basically caught up in tech (I'm still a bit behind but I'll probably stay with -5% or -10% cost bonuses to save on monarch points). I'm conquering as fast as I can spend the MPs (without tanking Admin tech), but it's just not enough.
In retrospect, my biggest mistake was taking Expansion first instead of Administration. Administration ideas are essentially required for a power game in this area of the world (especially with Common Sense as all these local minors will develop despite the many penalties they suffer). You need the reduction in mercenary costs (I'm well under force limits, most forts are mothballed, and I still can't run better than +2 advisors -- and I'm only making money with minimum army maintenance), and of course you really need the coring cost reduction. At this point I'm reluctant to take the idea group -- I'm close to ADM 23 for more efficiency, so I'll probably wind up losing more than I gain from spending the points on Admin ideas.
Of course without Expansion I wouldn't have Overseas Expansion CB, which is basically required. So I'd still need to fill out both groups. However, reversing the order probably would have been substantially more efficient, even with the slower colony growth and one less Merchant.
If I had focused my efforts on going around Africa instead of trying to colonize all the things then I'd be in a much better spot. Too many colonies is a massive money drain (which hurts advisors), and most useful colonies around here require parking armies to deal with native revolts, which is a tough thing to do in several places at once while still handling wars with such a rough start. And Westernizing 25 years earlier would have made a huge difference.
The Protectorate method is nice for easily grabbing territory; with lower coring costs I might be able to make more use of it. As it is, half my Protectorates manage to Westernize before I can take much of their land (Kongo and Majapahit both did this). That isn't necessarily bad since I can then force-vassalize and diplo-annex, which I can finally begin now that I've caught up enough in DIP tech to make a sensible navy (I've been running largely without one all game because I was so far behind).
Most of my money problems were due to having low trade power in Bengal. Bengal was an extremely powerful nation with a string of genius rulers that kept their tech levels high, and they were allied with Malacca, another extremely powerful nation. So I was very limited in where I could go and what I could do. Even Mutapa has grown to impressive levels. This has now changed because Ming turned friendly (and has expanded -- they're the France of the East for sure). So long as that continues I can impose my will.
The last 150 years should be very productive for me, but I don't expect to end up with an especially impressive empire. The fact that I'm not playing Ironman and have reloaded to deal with several mistakes already makes it that much worse. But what a learning experience this game has been!
First, the Karma issue has not in any way been a roadblock for me. I wasn't aware beforehand, but provinces you take with stuff like Overseas Expansion drastically tank the Karma loss on seizing provinces from your war target. And of course, as a Westernized Lan Na, most of your neighbors are subject to this awesome CB. I've actually gone to war, taken seven or eight provinces, and wound up gaining more than 30 Karma in the end just from stuff like releasing minors or returning a couple cores (at zero DIP cost). I've even been taking Karma penalty options on events to keep the Karma under 25.
That said, the primary reason this hasn't been an issue for me has been the complete lack of Admin points. I'm running +2 advisors all around, and I've finally had a couple good rulers, but even with all that it took me until around 1660 to get basically caught up in tech (I'm still a bit behind but I'll probably stay with -5% or -10% cost bonuses to save on monarch points). I'm conquering as fast as I can spend the MPs (without tanking Admin tech), but it's just not enough.
In retrospect, my biggest mistake was taking Expansion first instead of Administration. Administration ideas are essentially required for a power game in this area of the world (especially with Common Sense as all these local minors will develop despite the many penalties they suffer). You need the reduction in mercenary costs (I'm well under force limits, most forts are mothballed, and I still can't run better than +2 advisors -- and I'm only making money with minimum army maintenance), and of course you really need the coring cost reduction. At this point I'm reluctant to take the idea group -- I'm close to ADM 23 for more efficiency, so I'll probably wind up losing more than I gain from spending the points on Admin ideas.
Of course without Expansion I wouldn't have Overseas Expansion CB, which is basically required. So I'd still need to fill out both groups. However, reversing the order probably would have been substantially more efficient, even with the slower colony growth and one less Merchant.
If I had focused my efforts on going around Africa instead of trying to colonize all the things then I'd be in a much better spot. Too many colonies is a massive money drain (which hurts advisors), and most useful colonies around here require parking armies to deal with native revolts, which is a tough thing to do in several places at once while still handling wars with such a rough start. And Westernizing 25 years earlier would have made a huge difference.
The Protectorate method is nice for easily grabbing territory; with lower coring costs I might be able to make more use of it. As it is, half my Protectorates manage to Westernize before I can take much of their land (Kongo and Majapahit both did this). That isn't necessarily bad since I can then force-vassalize and diplo-annex, which I can finally begin now that I've caught up enough in DIP tech to make a sensible navy (I've been running largely without one all game because I was so far behind).
Most of my money problems were due to having low trade power in Bengal. Bengal was an extremely powerful nation with a string of genius rulers that kept their tech levels high, and they were allied with Malacca, another extremely powerful nation. So I was very limited in where I could go and what I could do. Even Mutapa has grown to impressive levels. This has now changed because Ming turned friendly (and has expanded -- they're the France of the East for sure). So long as that continues I can impose my will.
The last 150 years should be very productive for me, but I don't expect to end up with an especially impressive empire. The fact that I'm not playing Ironman and have reloaded to deal with several mistakes already makes it that much worse. But what a learning experience this game has been!
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Expansion is really rather poor as a group and I don't remember the last time I picked it, outside of playing colonial nations where it's much more useful simply because of the colonist and the fact it's chosen 'for you'. I didn't take it when I played Lan Na.
I used to like this group a lot and took it with Exploration almost always but it's really quite poor, especially for an Admin group. Overseas expansion is overkill, Religious War is a fine CB until imperialism and even basic claims suffice. The major thing Overseas Expansion gives you is less truce times but really, you've got many targets to choose from. Furthermore you still have to pay full core cost, so the major thing holding you back from mass conquering before admin efficiency is still a real thing.
I used to like this group a lot and took it with Exploration almost always but it's really quite poor, especially for an Admin group. Overseas expansion is overkill, Religious War is a fine CB until imperialism and even basic claims suffice. The major thing Overseas Expansion gives you is less truce times but really, you've got many targets to choose from. Furthermore you still have to pay full core cost, so the major thing holding you back from mass conquering before admin efficiency is still a real thing.
You pay 50% discount as a typical Euro (or African
) colonize taking land in India/Asia due to overseas. The real advantage over deus vult is that you don't need to border. You can declare ALL THE WARS like it's imperialism times and bag it all. That is, of course, assuming you have a means to deal with the rebellions and make it worth your while. Maybe a Sunni Sub-Saharan could make good use, or Ottomans with vassal block and Mecca/Jerusalem missionaries. I suppose your Portugals/Spains could just make 203958723098470239857 protectorates and get a ton of fast money too.
(Note: Next thread begins within a week or so)
Lan Na, 1675
After Westernization completed I finished off Khmer and began a long period of waiting and teching. It took almost 60 years before I could make any moves of note - years that were spent colonizing all the things. I grabbed most of the island chains to slow European encroachment from the Americas (to no avail; Portugal eventually colonized Midway regardless and is now warring with Japan).
Ming is scary and also kinda funny-looking, but more importantly they're allies. With all that blue on my side, and tech caught up at last, I could finally pounce on Malacca and Bengal. This eliminated my last local threat of note, though I'm aware Ming could turn on me at any point if they decide I should be a rival or if my provinces suddenly look tasty.
I played another ten or so years from that screenshot; in that time I took most of Ava's provinces (losing ally Jaunpur in the process) and colonized more of the Australia area. I just unlocked Imperialism, so I can force-vassalize nations that Westernized off me, starting with Kongo. Once they're pacified I'll move to Mutapa and Majapahit. Of course my truce with Bengal and Malacca is about to end as well, and I'd love to take more of their stuff (Malacca is currently westernizing, so they're an easy target).
I still haven't built a navy, though. I finally paid off my debts and have begun upgrading my forts. At last I have a pretty solid budget, enough that I'll soon bump up my Admin advisor to +3.
Lan Na, 1675
After Westernization completed I finished off Khmer and began a long period of waiting and teching. It took almost 60 years before I could make any moves of note - years that were spent colonizing all the things. I grabbed most of the island chains to slow European encroachment from the Americas (to no avail; Portugal eventually colonized Midway regardless and is now warring with Japan).
Ming is scary and also kinda funny-looking, but more importantly they're allies. With all that blue on my side, and tech caught up at last, I could finally pounce on Malacca and Bengal. This eliminated my last local threat of note, though I'm aware Ming could turn on me at any point if they decide I should be a rival or if my provinces suddenly look tasty.
I played another ten or so years from that screenshot; in that time I took most of Ava's provinces (losing ally Jaunpur in the process) and colonized more of the Australia area. I just unlocked Imperialism, so I can force-vassalize nations that Westernized off me, starting with Kongo. Once they're pacified I'll move to Mutapa and Majapahit. Of course my truce with Bengal and Malacca is about to end as well, and I'd love to take more of their stuff (Malacca is currently westernizing, so they're an easy target).
I still haven't built a navy, though. I finally paid off my debts and have begun upgrading my forts. At last I have a pretty solid budget, enough that I'll soon bump up my Admin advisor to +3.
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