Let's All Play Together: Lan Na! Community Nation Discovery

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Peachrocks

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Return core is 0dip, and there are a lot of cores to potentially return in Uzbek, Persia, Ming, and to a much lesser extent India. Plus, you can engineer that sort of thing.

But I bet it's still a sub-par faith overall :D.

From that position all of Africa will be relatively easy, but Asia you'll have to plan since you'll need multiple wars against the big nations with their big forts.

Yeah. Almost all my infantry are mercs so I can be an ass man without any concerns for the lives of the people of Lan Na... or at least, 'those' people will live extremely well with how much I pay them before throwing themselves at a silly fort. Not like I can spend my money on anything else anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if you find something really stupid with this and break the game somehow by making everyone release their starting positions or something for 0 dip cost...
 

TheMeInTeam

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I think an obvious trick to use right away is "give a bunch of provinces to scrub minor ally + vassal, then turn on ally and return cores", while taking land directly on another front of course. It's a lot of hoops to jump through for unremarkable bonuses though. If you gouge diprep you can probably do lots of small diplovassals from force release and double/triple annex. Still seems sub-par, but maybe you can use the Buddhist heresy that has heathen tolerance + humanist and still have some dip-free expansion until you have enough of another faith to switch.
 

alpaca

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I think an obvious trick to use right away is "give a bunch of provinces to scrub minor ally + vassal, then turn on ally and return cores", while taking land directly on another front of course. It's a lot of hoops to jump through for unremarkable bonuses though. If you gouge diprep you can probably do lots of small diplovassals from force release and double/triple annex. Still seems sub-par, but maybe you can use the Buddhist heresy that has heathen tolerance + humanist and still have some dip-free expansion until you have enough of another faith to switch.
It does have the advantage of not incuring AE, but you still pay the dip rep and have to fight two wars for the same territory unless you can diplo vassalize them after. On the other hand, once you get out of your own religion group, this might allow you to use the Holy War CB to great effect to avoid the dip cost for feeding your ally. The problem with small vassal stuff is always the -3 dip rep, so I guess you need to pick up Influence + Diplomatic for that. Still doesn't seem good, all things considered, just a little less terrible. If you can stay at neutral karma it's kinda sorta alright, but otherwise I'd still rather switch to Hinduism or Sunni. Or even Animist.
 

Susanna

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Well, this looks like a ton of fun and very different from my usual game (generally Western tech country, often colonizing Portugal).

Let's see how many different ways I can fail at this start!
 

josh127

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Made it to 1475

M2o5Bds.jpg
 
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Axe99

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Made it to 1475

That's a rampaging start! La Na WC?!

I've wrapped up my game - finally had the showdown with Bengal in the early 1800s (delayed a bit by a war with GB, where the Royal La Na Navy smashed the British Navy, leaving La Na as the only remaining naval superpower (as GB had been smashing everyone else's Navy up until then), which after so long building up to it, turned out to be a good deal easier than I'd expected. Unnoticed by me, Bengal was deeply in debt and had dismantled all of their forts! The Bengalese Army marched aggressively into my lines....

Get the Bengal Army.jpg

It didn't end well for them ;).

Final picture looked like the below, where La Na West is a Client State because I'd grown too large for Chin and Burmese to be accepted, and didn't have enough diplo power to have a chance at integrating:

La Na at the end.jpg


Also had most of Australia as a Colony, as well as a tiny corner of Alaska, Diego Garcia, Mauritius, one province in the Cape (I briefly considered pantsing on head) and one province in California (for westernising). Final diplo and cultural views were:

La Na at the end diplomatically.jpg


La Na at culturally.jpg

I wasn't quite successful in my goal, which was to have an empire composed of accepted cultures or cultures in the culture group, partly because the war with GB ended up with me pinching some provinces from Brunei and a few British Colonies, which are the red bits in South-East Asia, and only conquered Dhaka and Chittagong with about five years left to run, so didn't have time to bring them the cultural enlightenment that is Northern Thai.

Really enjoyed the game. Very tough start (five restarts!), lots of challenge through to the mid-game, and with a powerful Bengal up until the late 18th Century, as well as drawing Britain, Russia and the Ottomans all at once as rivals meant I couldn't just cut loose without thinking. Highlights included getting beaten up by France, then Britain, but eventually beating down on Britain towards the end of the game. Ming collapsing a huge factor in easing the way, easily the single largest factor I'd say for any expansionist country starting near Ming.

Looking forward to the next game - cheers for organising @net.split :). Best of luck to everyone with the rest of their games :).
 

josh127

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That's a rampaging start! La Na WC?!
It won't be WC for sure. I don't have the patience for that. I've also ate up all my admin points so far coring, so I'd need to find a luck based westernization option somewhat early to make up ground. I'm guessing marching across India and China is easy reach, and all of Asia and into Africa would be probable. However, if I get that big I'll probably end up wasting time going after Europe. It doesn't make for as expansive of an empire, but Asia vs Europe would probably be as fun as Africa vs Europe was.

I wasn't quite successful in my goal, which was to have an empire composed of accepted cultures or cultures in the culture group, partly because the war with GB ended up with me pinching some provinces from Brunei and a few British Colonies, which are the red bits in South-East Asia, and only conquered Dhaka and Chittagong with about five years left to run, so didn't have time to bring them the cultural enlightenment that is Northern Thai.
To be honest, while reaching the goal is amazingly rewarding, it's the journey trying to get there that's the most fun. I find most often the games that were the most fun were the ones where I barely made the goal (1.5 Najd Jihad run) and the ones where I fall just slightly short.

Highlights included getting beaten up by France, then Britain, but eventually beating down on Britain towards the end of the game.
And revenge is awesome too, especially in a war you have a chance to lose. I think one of my best EU4 memories was in Reform or Die after being totally wrecked by France on two occasions dropping in to fight a still oversized Paris. In most typical games though, it's when I finally land on the shores of Iberia and release my old friend Galicia. :)

Anyway, sounds like you had a lot of fun with this run, that's what counts the most.
 
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Peachrocks

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8Ujeij6.jpg


Closing up now. It looks certain I'll be able to at least connect my African Empire to my Asian one, how much more I go beyond that? Who knows, but it feels like its taken longer to do those last few years than it's taken to do the game since I last posted but the results show I guess.
 
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net.split

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That's an impressive run!

Meanwhile I'm not having so impressive a start. Fell into some beginner traps that I should really know better about by now.

I declared on Hsenwi, which brought in their allies Arakan and Ayutthaya. I sent forth my allies Dai Viet, Ava, and Tuangu (they've developed enough to support 9 units now, though their tech is way behind) plus my mid-integration vassal Lan Xang.

I boosted my forces with some mercs, putting me close but not quite on par with Ayutthaya. We outnumbered them, but my allies are terrible and it wound up being a very hard-fought war. I was able to white peace Arakan before too long, but I really wanted to stick it to Ayutthaya while I had the chance.

Then I realized something. I had no DIP points.

I was integrating Lan Xang and over one in relations (because Arakan was previously an ally but still had a royal marriage). Without DIP there was very little useful I could do at this point.

But wait, the Buddhism changes! I can force Ayutthaya to release something, then try to save up DIP somehow for final peace with Hsenwi. Well, the only release option was Sukhothai for some reason (Ligor still had cores but I couldn't force release?). And Sukhothai required 100% warscore.

I went even further into debt, hiring a DIP advisor, and worked on repeatedly bashing Ayutthaya's army. I only lost one battle and after a couple years established dominance. One near-complete occupation later and Sukhothai was released!

Around this time Lan Xang finished integrating, so it was just a matter of waiting and building up DIP points. Then, Champa attacked Dai Viet, dragging me in. That's another 22k enemy forces... I got a good deal out of it, taking four of Hsenwi's six provinces (and giving a fifth to Ava), then marched over to reinforce Dai Viet. Tech advantage made this one fairly short, providing a white peace.

By this time, though, I have more than 12 war exhaustion with rebels about to pop up everywhere. I am completely out of manpower and already several loans in. I have no choice but to spend MIL on harsh treatment despite having a 5/0/0/ ruler and insufficient funds for a single advisor.

Still, once I recover I should be the dominant force on the peninsula. And my Karma is excellent.


Oh, and there were weird things with the update. Dai Viet dropped to 5 troops when I started the game (4 cavalry and one infantry) and refused to rehire. I loaded the game again and selected to play as them; they had no debt, plenty of income, plenty of manpower, a force limit around 16... Shrugging, I started a mass-hire of infantry in every province, saved, loaded, and resumed as Lan Na. This apparently fixed the problem.

Also, I got slammed for the DIP cost when I released Sukhothai even though the message said it would cost 0 and I actually had only a couple points of DIP when I signed the peace. It dropped me to -96 or so. I had to console myself some DIP points back to be able to peace out properly with Hsenwi.

New patch oddities!
 
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josh127

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Then I realized something. I had no DIP points.
LOL! I laugh because I feel your pain on that one. Even worse when I have the dip points and spend them because I forget I needed them.

Ligor issue is a bit odd. Had Ayutthaya changed culture on their provinces? The provinces they have cores on do need to be primary culture. Otherwise, probably a bug with upgrading patches. I opened a new game, forced Ayatthaya to integrate Sukhotai, Ligor, and Khmer then switched to Lan Na and won the war. I had the option to force release all 3 nations.
 
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alpaca

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Then I realized something. I had no DIP points.

Oh, and there were weird things with the update. Dai Viet dropped to 5 troops when I started the game (4 cavalry and one infantry) and refused to rehire. I loaded the game again and selected to play as them; they had no debt, plenty of income, plenty of manpower, a force limit around 16... Shrugging, I started a mass-hire of infantry in every province, saved, loaded, and resumed as Lan Na. This apparently fixed the problem.

Also, I got slammed for the DIP cost when I released Sukhothai even though the message said it would cost 0 and I actually had only a couple points of DIP when I signed the peace. It dropped me to -96 or so. I had to console myself some DIP points back to be able to peace out properly with Hsenwi.

New patch oddities!
I've been thinking we need a "pause integration" button like you have for westernization for a long time.

I just created a cheat game to test the dip point thing, and the game in fact does deduct the dip points, even though the user interface claims 0 cost. However did this get through QA?
eu4_4.jpg eu4_5.jpg eu4_6.jpg

There already is a bug report about this, so I guess we're in for a hotfix soon? I personally decided to continue my game where I was halfway toward converting to Hindu anyways, but this is important information for everyone who hasn't converted yet.
 
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I've been thinking we need a "pause integration" button like you have for westernization for a long time.

I just created a cheat game to test the dip point thing, and the game in fact does deduct the dip points, even though the user interface claims 0 cost. However did this get through QA?
View attachment 136483 View attachment 136484 View attachment 136485

There already is a bug report about this, so I guess we're in for a hotfix soon? I personally decided to continue my game where I was halfway toward converting to Hindu anyways, but this is important information for everyone who hasn't converted yet.

The interface lies to you way more often than it should as it is... Easy example from Lan Na, if you declare imperialism CB and put someone as co beligerant, when you take stuff from that person it looks as though it WILL cost you diplo but it actually doesn't and it will let you go over the amount you have obviously since it's 0 in reality, however if they are not co beligerant it tells you correctly that it will cost you diplo and limits you in what you can get by diplo points, don't take issue with the diplo cost and what not, I take issue with the fact the interface lies to you constantly and you are always second guessing the information you are getting.
 
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The interface lies to you way more often than it should as it is... Easy example from Lan Na, if you declare imperialism CB and put someone as co beligerant, when you take stuff from that person it looks as though it WILL cost you diplo but it actually doesn't and it will let you go over the amount you have obviously since it's 0 in reality, however if they are not co beligerant it tells you correctly that it will cost you diplo and limits you in what you can get by diplo points, don't take issue with the diplo cost and what not, I take issue with the fact the interface lies to you constantly and you are always second guessing the information you are getting.
Yet another reason why I usually prefer not to play ironman.
 
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Decided to give this a spin. Didn't get to play much, but posting here because I heard you folks love some border gore:
FB90BFAAC8038D90EE226B99F830E41B049644C6

I really want to go into Pegu for their estuary provinces, but I rivaled and broke relations with Ayuthaya for the dip slot(should've done that to Arakan instead I guess) and nobody else wants to support another aggressive war until 1969 now, plus Khmer and Lan Xang are willing even to break truce in Pegu's defence, and they have Hsenwi as ally too.
Leaking MP like crazy to suppress the rebels from my reckless expansion too, what could go wrong?
 
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Well I'm done. Accomplished the goal of united Asia/African empires and over 1000 provinces, didn't manage to control all of both and I didn't get into conflict with Europe much but Europe is just a time/resource sink anyway.

KoDBKsu.jpg


Status Screen and no, I don't play buggyman, I don't enjoy tearing my eyes out (too much) sue me.

h3cDn8n.jpg


Pretty pleased with this one, yes I'm overextended but it wouldn't take long to deal with :D. Wondered how different it would have been if I didn't force myself into a Republic and possibly went a Theocracy instead, sure as hell not staying as a Monarchy anymore... They suck so much :(.

Though really Constitutional Republic/Monarchy seems like a complete waste of time, some of those debates are good but a lot of them are garbage and even the good ones you have to give a lot to win the debate, I'm probably sticking with Administrative or whatever in future.
 
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So, here's the current status of my game. I decided not to give it up and restart for the Buddhism changes - as it turned out that was a very good choice because of the diplo power bug. First the resign screen
screen.jpg

It's now 1586 and I can finally initiate the westernization process after taking a core from Venice in Turkey. The Ottomans imploded at some point in the early 16th ct, apparently after some failed war where they sat at 20k troops and no manpower a gangrape started. They were constantly at war with multiple alliances, and I decided they were a soft target and took some of their stuff. It was a little hard to get into the region because my coring range sucks and all available Arabs were larger than 100%, so a no-cb wouldn't have been of much use. I was able to drag Ottos into a war by attacking their ally Haasa, made them release Iraq, attacked Persia to get a neighboring province, diplo-vassalized Iraq, then fed them the Haasalese provinces belonging to them. I'm now setting the area up to take advantage of overseas coring for vassals both in Europe and Asia. Eretna will core in Asia, while Iraq and myself will core in Europe once I finished westernization.

My big expansion push was initially helped by an awesome 4 siege pip general, whom his troops lovingly called "the Siegemaster". His appearance serendipitously coincided with my being able to finally afford a full siege stack with 11 artillery, which he was able to use to sometimes siege down forts in one or two siege phases. I am now well into the process of pacifying India, although there are still quite a few high-value targets to go, and of course I still have to annex my vassals. I was focused more on taking advantage of the Ottos' weakness (there were periods where they went bankrupt every six months or so) and getting a western core than cleaning up India, but I still fought quite a few wars there. In total I now have 1800 or so development, which is about twice as much as the next largest nation I have knowledge of, Spain, but I'm reasonably sure there are no larger nations hiding in the fog.
globe.jpg

As you probably already saw on the last shot, Ming just collapsed! They lost mandate due to a regency for an average heir, and the whopping +10 RR (from the -5 they normally get) busted their asses. I helped the rebels out a little by stackwiping the last larger Ming army and occupying some territory to increase warscore, but really, the harm was already done. After I peaced out, they were soon broken and all the nice little rebels enforced their demands. Dali is actually my vassal whom I released in order to feed them their Ming-controlled cores. Not sure if it was worth the dip power for going over the relations limit, so I will probably release Nogai, whom I took from Persia but haven't fed yet. Can always re-vassalize them later on.
china.jpg
In Europe, Spain, France and Russia seem to be doing well, especially Spain, who also have an income nearly as high as my own, and a larger navy. I'm curious what the FOW will reveal once I westernize. At any rate, my army is without peer, even though I'm currently a little behind on military tech because I am delaying level 14 due to the army tradition changes (you don't get AT anymore on obsolete forts). I'll catch up again once I finish westernizing, which I will do when I saved up a little more admin power in case I want to core anything. It will take about 20 years, give or take, at 15 MP invested per month. Rebels will be harsh, so I might not be able to do much warfare, but I'll see if my three 22 unit rebel suppression stacks can handle the situation, or if I'll also need my 88 unit strong main army to help out.
army.jpg

The game is getting a little tedious now, as these things go. I hugely outnumber and outgun everyone I can attack, so warfare is no challenge at all. Will see how long I stick to it this time. If I feel like WC is in reach, I might go for it, but I'm not sure it's really an option. I haven't got religious or administrative yet. After westernizing, I will take religious first but only get the CB, then go for administrative as my next group. I'm planning to mostly vassal feed till then, keep tanking my dip tech, and catch up later, if ever, with the -too many per cent neighbor modifiers. 10 levels behind should be -50% :p
 
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Lan Na, 1552

2015-08-31_00001.jpg


This game went bonkers pretty quickly. Dai Viet was really into this idea of declaring war on Champa despite having only me as allies and our total forces being around evenly matched with Champa + Khmer. I had absolutely no interest in obliterating myself in yet another pointless battle with my manpower exhausted, so I broke the alliance. After that war, and another that followed immediately upon the truce ending, Dai Viet was reduced to an OPM and became a vassal of Ming.

Meanwhile I fabricated on Sukhothai and declared immediately upon that truce ending. I won easily, but before the war finished Ayutthaya declared reconquest on Sukhothai, bringing in no allies. This was perfect. I force-vassalized Sukhothai and took over the war with Ayutthaya, taking as much land as I could easily manage. Thanks to events (and honoring a war for Ava) I never dropped into poor Karma territory.

Then I got a mission to vassalize Arakan, whose only ally was... Ayutthaya. I happily went to work, bringing in Ava to join the party, and reduced the once mighty Ayutthaya to a OPM (that was swiftly gobbled up by hungry Malacca), feeding most of the conquered land to Sukhothai.

Meanwhile Champa had crumbled to Dai Viet rebels. Great news for me -- I had a claim or two on Champa territory and went after them. Bolstered by my vassals, it was an easy war, letting me cut the country in half and start work on religious conversion. I integrated Sukothai and Arakan, then diplo-vassalized Taungu. One treaty end later and the rest of Champa is mine.

Khmer was next on my list, but two things happened. First, rival Malacca fell into civil war. That's good! Second, a powerful and stout Ming declared me as rivals. That's bad!

My plan was to Westernize off South Africa, then use eventually superior tech to destroy my foes. I had a string of poor military monarchs (and a regency), leaving my tech far behind everyone else. I've finally managed to catch up to within 1 military tech, but that's not good enough when Ming can run an army almost four times the size of mine. So how's South Africa looking?

2015-08-31_00002.jpg


Huh. Well. Maybe time for Plan B?

Unfortunately I don't really have a Plan B. I am up to 3 colonists now, and I've managed to get 3 or 4 gold provinces colonized (including Cape, woohoo!). I'm colonizing everywhere, focusing on Malacca and South Africa for now (Tiwi was a Mission). That's not going to give me anywhere near enough power to stand up to Ming, though. And my best options for allies are rivals instead (Bengal, Malacca). Even with the shared rival modifiers, I can't manage alliances with powerful nations Jaunpur or Bahmanis either. Instead I have Ava, Mong Yang, Brunei, and Tibet. Inadequate.

It's a crapshoot. Ming has a Conquest CB on me, but they also have Conquest on some hordes in the northwest, a direction they already started pursuing. Their young ruler is an Administrative type, so perhaps he will largely ignore me (though he might come for my Cheng Du provinces).

In other news: Muscowy is doing pretty well, Poland is not (Lithuania is independent), Ottomans are steamrolling, Japan is united, and (from a cheat-peak at the world map in the load screen) Spain isn't yet united. Portugal is also lagging behind; they have only 6 ideas and a terrible ruler, though they've conquered a good portion of Morocco. Castile has a good presence in West Africa (southern coast near our previous Zazzau LP), while Portugal has only a single province there. Portugal is actually focused on North America, while Castile is in the Caribbean. Great Britain has already formed, though they're barely colonizing, and Provence ate Brittany.

It's probably going to be another 50 years before I can Westernize at the pace the Iberians are going. I can't explore to West Africa, so I have no idea how long it'll take me to make contact.
 
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Khmer was next on my list, but two things happened. First, rival Malacca fell into civil war. That's good! Second, a powerful and stout Ming declared me as rivals. That's bad!

Good luck with Ming :). They had the politeness to collapse in my La Na game, but in a not-too-much-earlier Ayyuthaya playthrough they stayed strong (and got stronger) and I was in a similar situation with rivals, so no decent allies. It took me owning pretty much all of Indo-China, the Malay Peninsula and Brunei before I was ready to challenge them, and that was only by waiting for them to be embroiled in a war to their north. Even then it was a bit touch-and-go. Those mountainous provinces along your northern border with Ming will be handy if you ever come to blows. It makes for an interesting game :).
 

josh127

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Unfortunately I don't really have a Plan B.
B) You say the Ottomans are rolling, have they westernized or are they closing in on a city that will give them free westernization?
C) If Castile is in West Africa, it's time to head there. Alternatively you could go to South America, but that'll take awhile.
D) Get fleet basing rights and explore your way into the Med. If you can either take some land around the Red Sea or keep working around Africa you can get coring range and hopefully find an easy target. North Africa might even have some Iberian countries or leftover cores.

As a side note, be sure to check the West African nations to see if any of them have westernized. If the Spaniard moved inland at all or lost provinces back to them, they might be. If you have to take a province off Castile though, remember to pick a war goal that you can actually manage. No CB on a West African might be doable, but probably not on an Iberian.

As for Ming, be sure to focus MIL and have your better advisor there. Get ahead in tech. In my Ajuuraan game, regimental camps have really helped me get in position to handle my little Turk problem. They cost some money, but one force limit each does add up. I'd also think about Korea or anyone to their north. If you can get them to split up their armies you can deal with them in small groups. They'll also waste loads of time trying to run between the two extremes.