Let's All Play Together: Kazan! Community Nation Discovery

[qwertzuiop]

I'm now in 1570 and I have the chance to get a PU over Spain - if I can pull this off. Spain is now ruled by the glorious king José I Isaxqi. I have 90k troops but they have around 100k together with their allies. It's a strong version of Spain - they successfully integrated Aragon and Naples, they have been colonizing quite a lot, the only place where they surprisingly did not succeed was in North Africa where a strong Tunis reigns supreme.

I'd like to call in France against them but it's quite unlikely, I'm close to an alliance but France aren't rivalled to Spain anymore. I can get alliances with the Ottomans and Tunis without many problems and maybe if I'm lucky with England as well. But I'm not sure how much they will help me on land and how they will use their troops as my plan is just to march through straight to Madrid with my 90k army. Of course, if I manage to win, the pace of the game will change tremendously.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm now in 1570 and I have the chance to get a PU over Spain - if I can pull this off. Spain is now ruled by the glorious king José I Isaxqi. I have 90k troops but they have around 100k together with their allies. It's a strong version of Spain - they successfully integrated Aragon and Naples, they have been colonizing quite a lot, the only place where they surprisingly did not succeed was in North Africa where a strong Tunis reigns supreme.

I'd like to call in France against them but it's quite unlikely, I'm close to an alliance but France aren't rivalled to Spain anymore. I can get alliances with the Ottomans and Tunis without many problems and maybe if I'm lucky with England as well. But I'm not sure how much they will help me on land and how they will use their troops as my plan is just to march through straight to Madrid with my 90k army. Of course, if I manage to win, the pace of the game will change tremendously.

Since it's a province war goal and battles will count very little bring in whatever you can get. The distraction will let you stall out/separate peace Spain's allies before marching on them directly.

 

[Chimerae]

In none of my games was I able to ally them. Best I could get was Crimea after a few months improving relations. Perhaps because I'm playing Ironman?

I play ironman too, and I could ally Timmies day one. Besides that, in 9/10 games, AI Kazan and Timurids form an alliance as well. You probably were just unlucky.

 

[Peachrocks]

Good luck going republic. You'll need it, since you have a gold mine and you can't become a merchant republic unless 40% income is trade (very stupid/vexing restriction given the already enormous opportunity cost of switching).

I don't need no luck, I'm Peachrocks, the champion of republics... or... something... I dunno

Presenting the Merchant Republic of Kazan...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'd like to get the timing down with Jomini's suggestion of expansion --> deliberately lose core to rebel --> republic --> reconquest, looks interesting.

 

[bbqftw]

I don't need no luck, I'm Peachrocks, the champion of republics... or... something... I dunno

Presenting the Merchant Republic of Kazan...

no opportunity costs were harmed in the making of this republic

I'd like to get the timing down with Jomini's suggestion of expansion --> deliberately lose core to rebel --> republic --> reconquest, looks interesting.

do you get autonomy tick-down on cores that you don't own? Because given optimal always at war playstyle that would be very nice

 

[TheMeInTeam]

no opportunity costs were harmed in the making of this republic

That's my problem with it. Even if you're optimizing for it substantially, you're basically guaranteeing yourself 1-2 regency council's worth of waiting, and putting it up-front. Worse still, since you can basically guarantee yourself a late-game republic (using aspirations for liberty), the marginal value of a switch would have to be enough to pay back by 1700, otherwise you could just eat your 1-2 regency councils instead and flop into a republic for a similar stab hit.

 

[Peachrocks]

That's my problem with it. Even if you're optimizing for it substantially, you're basically guaranteeing yourself 1-2 regency council's worth of waiting, and putting it up-front. Worse still, since you can basically guarantee yourself a late-game republic (using aspirations for liberty), the marginal value of a switch would have to be enough to pay back by 1700, otherwise you could just eat your 1-2 regency councils instead and flop into a republic for a similar stab hit.

Yeah... I mean I expanded my vassals a fair bit but really, I'm more playing for lolz rather than optimization. I'm sure you know that about me by now. I think even if Republics sucked and Monarchies were better I'd still beeline to them .

I just REALLY hate Monarchies and all the stab hits and terrible rulers that come with them. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to unify Islam... FOR THE REPUBLIC!

 

[alpaca]

I'd like to get the timing down with Jomini's suggestion of expansion --> deliberately lose core to rebel --> republic --> reconquest, looks interesting.

It's more reliable to lose provinces in a war against the previous owner. Going for republic with the Ottomans, I strongly favored vassal feeding and then lost nearly all provinces I took for myself in a few years after finishing the ideas. For Kazan, that would probably be Muscovy and GH. Of course if you still don't have CS, vassal feeding is not nearly as useful for you. Ideally, you'll already be far along integrating a big vassal when you switch to republic.

I think Noble Republic (with a quick switch to oligarchic) might be preferable to merchant, because the ideas you need are more useful and you can later get a policy with +0.4 RT, to get almost Novgorod-like levels of ruler goodiness, for the low price of 1 mil per month if you keep Aristocratic and take Diplomatic.

It doesn't put you back as far as one might think, in my estimation about 15 years (so as bad as a harsh regency). Kazan maybe a bit more because the situation isn't quite as good as for the Ottos. However, afterwards you have much better, and especially much more flexible, MP production and no regencies. Also, Hindu humanist republic is positively awesome. Massive unrest reduction from humanist and plutocratic, as well as being able to choose new deities essentially whenever you want is really cool. Sure, you'll usually sit on Shiva, but if you really need to convert something or need some dip rep, you can get it.

But you're right: if you keep monarchy, it's mainly gambling on not getting regencies and getting acceptable rulers. Monarchy is always a gamble in every respect, the more reliable strategy is going for republic. If you want a speed run, monarchy and cancelling or cheating if you get a 10 year regency is the way to go.

 

[Peachrocks]

I'm not a fan of Merchant Republics and definitely prefer going Aristo/Influence. I just wanted to do it because it seemed extremely odd for Kazan to go that route. I know the days of Genghis Khan are long past (unlike Wiz would have us believe) but it was like that at one point, it just seems funny to me for a nation to go from looting, pillaging and raiding to... looting, pillaging and raiding FINANCIAL OPPORTUNITIES!

I've already ditched trade in favour of influence, trade is just... so bad... especially there. I might not like Aristocratic much (this goes against everything we stand for!) but I'll tolerate eating it compared to Trade any day of the week. Economic isn't that great either these days since you can't build loads of buildings anymore and get the most out of building cost reduction and all the rest of it and development... ew?

 

[Axe99]

I'm not a fan of Merchant Republics and definitely prefer going Aristo/Influence. I just wanted to do it because it seemed extremely odd for Kazan to go that route. I know the days of Genghis Khan are long past (unlike Wiz would have us believe) but it was like that at one point, it just seems funny to me for a nation to go from looting, pillaging and raiding to... looting, pillaging and raiding FINANCIAL OPPORTUNITIES!

lolololol, love your work . Keep updating us on your progress .

 

[Forsell]

Here's my progress from last night (just got home from a day on the coast).

GH allied with Uzbek, so if I attack that's one ally down. Hopefully Uzbek will be busy with an Eastern war and Timmy will support me too.

Muscovy is a problem. I've seen them steamroll both GH and Uzbek in a previous war (ended as a stalemate as Muscovy got involved in another war).

Current plan is to wait for someone to have trouble and then pounce..

 

[Peachrocks]

lolololol, love your work . Keep updating us on your progress .

Thanks lol...

Not particularly thrilled but Merchant Republic isn't holding me back anywhere near as much as Lithuania and Sweden are, neither of which I can honestly beat in a straight up contest, Sweden's got too many bonuses on me and Lithuania has Poland who combined have about double my numbers and they are maxed on military tech like me. Ottos who are my only useful allies keep getting into the crapper against Aragon and even Venice recently had a go at em. I've gone Expansion as my third idea to get the CB on Asia but even there, there is a 109 force limit Vijay that is going to be a major headache. Hopefully by the time I come across them, I'll have a significant tech lead. Unify Islam is going to be pretty tough at this point I think...

Still I've completed all my reforms, am Western and erased Trade for Influence, so progress is going to be getting faster and faster, just hope I can snowball using Asia, get a lot of wealth and who knows what else. Probably taking quantity next, I already outnumber Sweden, so if I trash on them with even more numbers it might be enough.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm not a fan of Merchant Republics and definitely prefer going Aristo/Influence. I just wanted to do it because it seemed extremely odd for Kazan to go that route. I know the days of Genghis Khan are long past (unlike Wiz would have us believe) but it was like that at one point, it just seems funny to me for a nation to go from looting, pillaging and raiding to... looting, pillaging and raiding FINANCIAL OPPORTUNITIES!

I've already ditched trade in favour of influence, trade is just... so bad... especially there. I might not like Aristocratic much (this goes against everything we stand for!) but I'll tolerate eating it compared to Trade any day of the week. Economic isn't that great either these days since you can't build loads of buildings anymore and get the most out of building cost reduction and all the rest of it and development... ew?

The other reason you want merchant rep if going at all is that you can't switch before reforming, and only the option you chose works to let you reform government AND go republic.

 

[SFSLovenought]

Strong Hansa! You don't see that very often.

 

[Peachrocks]

The other reason you want merchant rep if going at all is that you can't switch before reforming, and only the option you chose works to let you reform government AND go republic.

Well yeah... I kinda forgot about that when I was doing it... I sort of want to do it again without going for republic. It's not even the 19 provinces that get me, it's the crappy ideas you have to take. That's cost me more than anything else. Economic and Trade are both really bad atm since there's much less you can do with money than previously and as Kazan I'm not exactly rolling it even with Economic.

Also I think I've been really unlucky. Vijay is now western thanks to friggin derpy Portugal and Goa and is only 2 techs down off the standard and I'm nowhere near being able to attack them, so any hopes of an easier victory there are gone, Aragon is massive and has a PU with Hungary, Otto is basically useless and Poland has a PU with Austria which makes it even harder to do anything about Lithuania.

 

[alpaca]

The other reason you want merchant rep if going at all is that you can't switch before reforming, and only the option you chose works to let you reform government AND go republic.

Oh, I didn't know that, but it makes sense, I guess. Makes going rep with unreformed governments have even more of an opportunity cost, having to take economic instead of one of the more useful admin groups. Not that econ is bad at what it does, but apart from inflation reduction it's just more money, but not going to help with rebels or monarch points. I would consider dropping trade later, probably, if you can afford the dip dip.

 

[Peachrocks]

Oh, I didn't know that, but it makes sense, I guess. Makes going rep with unreformed governments have even more of an opportunity cost, having to take economic instead of one of the more useful admin groups. Not that econ is bad at what it does, but apart from inflation reduction it's just more money, but not going to help with rebels or monarch points. I would consider dropping trade later, probably, if you can afford the dip dip.

The introduction of development and not being able to spam buildings everywhere nerfed economic into the ground. Yes, you do get a discount on development with economic but that's not much fun for a map painter like me, I'd rather spend my monarch points on 'doing stuff' and even with development economic is still MUCH worse than it once was. After economic got the LA buff but prior to common sense patch it was definitely second tier, very much worth taking first or second for some starts. Now? It's one above joke tier like Innovative, Espionage and Naval.

I can't unify Islam with development no matter how pretty the capital of Kazan looks. Innovative is obvious crap with only one good idea in the whole group (which is a shame because I so want to use the group, I believe in the ideals of Innovative but it's so bad even I can't turn a blind eye to it) so that leaves Administrative. A group that is mandatory for any sort of serious expansion.

It doesn't help that you can basically get rich with your eyes closed now and get on +3 advisors across the board much sooner than otherwise. Even in this case, economic has been of extremely little use to me simply because there isn't that much wealth to multiply which is the other problem with it. It doesn't give much if you don't have much but by the time you have much it's useless.

I got rid of Trade right away. It was that useless and I wanted to annex Novgorod (at that time) sooner rather than later. Even as a march Kazahk is getting uppity from time to time and I have to send 'love notes' to anyone who supports their independence.

Still, this is one wacky world... I should be able to unify Islam, I've got the largest army in the world and haven't completed Quantity yet. Mongolia is my vassal and I'm making progress in the east. The alliance with Sweden REALLY helped since they finally stopped rivaling me with their friggin uber generals.

 

[Zwirbaum]

And the third Kazan Khanate episode -

 

[alpaca]

So, a short status update. I'm in full Asia conquest mode now, going far over the OE limit every couple of years. I'm not perfectly happy with the game, I should probably have more strongly pushed for India earlier, rather than conquering the steppes first, to get additional merchants, but it's fine, I guess. As per my previous post, I westernized mid-16th century, since then I've been pushing as hard as admin points allow. I'm ahead of time in mil tech, on level 17 admin and somewhat behind in dip. I finally managed to decisively outgrow the Ottomans, who will be my first target once I move into Europe (unify Islam and whatnot). I'm still debating with myself if I should move my capital to Asia, since I don't have that much territory in Europe, or not bother about it. I generally don't terribly enjoy abusing the overseas system like that, but if I keep getting rulers like my current 0/4/4, I may have to.

My current idea groups are finished Administrative, Quantity and Influence, and Religious up to the missionary strength policy. My next idea will probably be either Humanism or Exploration, though monarch point availability points more to a dip group, and getting an explorer to get CBs against Brunei, etc is also important.

Some fun stuff:

Where are you going, Pasai? Don't you like your islands anymore?

That... I... I don't know what to say. In which possible world does that move make any sense? They proceeded to occupy two provinces, then returned home just to see me occupy some of their forts and peace them out before their army fought a single battle.

Also, behold the mother of all league wars

Yeah, methinks it's a good thing I stayed out of this one. Green is the Protestant league against emperor The Palatinate. The war was mostly a stalemate, though Russia and France lost some provinces, and eventually the Peace of Westphalia was signed after 10 years or so of fighting, leaving most of Europe starved for manpower and in debt. I exploited it by attacking Lithuania and Russia afterwards. Fun times.