Let the ruling classes tremble – an Interactive Revolutionary AAR

[Communard]

You people are hilarious, with your "Liberty!" and "Freedom!".

Authoritarianism is but a means to an end. The ends will always justify the means. So long as Lenin brings this Republic to the cusp of Communism, who cares of the methods he uses to get there?

So long as Lenin works for the betterment of this Republic and Revolution I will support him. Why?

Because my loyalty lies with the salvation of humanity in Communism, not some lofty ideal of liberty and freedom.

Communism is liberty. Liberty is communism. To bring communism without liberty is impossible. Explain what this "Communism without liberty" is, and how authoritarianism will bring us closer to it. The ends always justify the means, eh? But if the means destroy your end, how ironic it would be! My loyalty is with the salvation of humanity and communism. So long as Lenin works for the ideological stagnation of this Republic and Counter-revolution I will oppose him.

 

[unmerged(140907)]

Communism is liberty. Liberty is communism. To bring communism without liberty is impossible. Explain what this "Communism without liberty" is, and how authoritarianism will bring us closer to it. The ends always justify the means, eh? But if the means destroy your end, how ironic it would be!

If your means destroy your end, then you have reached the incorrect end. They will therefore NOT justify your means.

It's the simple philosophical notion of the benevolent dictator (or as Plato liked to call them Philosopher Kings) the dictator is given the power to enact the necessary reforms and actions to get us towards the end we desire. With such power the dictator can in principle bring about this end more efficiently and quickly then any other political structure. Following the completion of such, the dictator relinquishes power. In this case, following the dictator relinquishing power we would move into Communism. The only problem this process faces is if A.) The Dictator does not work towards the desired end. or B.) The Dictator refuses to give up power following completion of his mandate.

In the case of A or B I will gladly throw my opposition against Lenin.

 

[Communard]

If your means destroy your end, then you have reached the incorrect end. They will therefore NOT justify your means.

It's the simple philosophical notion of the benevolent dictator (or as Plato liked to call them Philosopher Kings) the dictator is given the power to enact the necessary reforms and actions to get us towards the end we desire. With such power the dictator can in principle bring about this end more efficiently and quickly then any other political structure. Following the completion of such, the dictator relinquishes power. In this case, following the dictator relinquishing power we would move into Communism. The only problem this process faces is if A.) The Dictator does not work towards the desired end. or B.) The Dictator refuses to give up power following completion of his mandate.

In the case of A or B I will gladly throw my opposition against Lenin.

We are working towards the emancipation of the working class. Placing restrictions on their freedom of thought and ruling as a dictator over them are incompatible with this. Thus your means are, by definition, contradictory to your end.

 

[Seek75]

So, Thezfelt, you say the ends justify the means. Would that mean that murdering every single man, woman, and child on the planet in cold blood is ok? No people means no conflict, no property, no state, no opression. By ridding the world of the human race, we have obtained our world communist utopia, and it only cost us everything.

 

[naggy]

Look. I realize that the anarchists were popular for folks on the thread. That said, the anarchists are dead. Rather than continue RPing as Anarchists, why not wait for the next update, and perhaps see what new factions emerge, and react to that?

The point of an interactive AAR is that not only will Tommy4ever react to us, but we should also act based on how the story develops.

 

[unmerged(140907)]

We are working towards the emancipation of the working class. Placing restrictions on their freedom of thought and ruling as a dictator over them are incompatible with this. Thus your means are, by definition, contradictory to your end.

I presented this wrong and botched up my point (what a fun Saturday night does to your brain maybe...). Let me clarify. I'm concerned that many people seem more willing to give their loyalties to unnecessary ideals instead of the true goal of this Revolution. If economic equality and prosperity are secured by authoritarian means and the people are given back their liberties in the end, don't the ends of Communism justify the prior authoritarian measures?

I'm not advocating Lenin become a Philosopher King. I don't think he has the economic knowledge to single-handedly guide us from our current state to universal equality and prosperity. I just wanted to point out it could work and that our loyalties should lie with the possibility it could work and not the strict need to maintain freedom and liberty.

Luckily, I can see you are not blindly loyal to some ideal but simply concerned on how we could reach Communism without upholding such ideals. I hope I've answered that for you .

So, Thezfelt, you say the ends justify the means. Would that mean that murdering every single man, woman, and child on the planet in cold blood is ok? No people means no conflict, no property, no state, no opression. By ridding the world of the human race, we have obtained our world communist utopia, and it only cost us everything.

My name is Thezfel, but Thez works too . (I am not a cloth of woolen fibers thank you.)

A common misconception. Is a World Communist Utopia no one inhabits the end you are looking for? I doubt it, so since your end is incorrect, your actions are not justified.

 

[Communard]

Look. I realize that the anarchists were popular for folks on the thread. That said, the anarchists are dead. Rather than continue RPing as Anarchists, why not wait for the next update, and perhaps see what new factions emerge, and react to that?

The point of an interactive AAR is that not only will Tommy4ever react to us, but we should also act based on how the story develops.

Coming out of character for a moment, you think that just because Lenin has killed the Anarchist ringleaders, opposition to Lenin in the Party would cease immediately? Part of what will be interesting in the coming updates is how Lenin will react to opposition. Will he ruthlessly purge the Party? Will he attempt to silence dissent? Will he simply tolerate these voices and hope the majority continue to see his way? Remember that we are the lower echelons of the party, and that there are no "members" of factions, and that the update mentioned no purging of the party itself, only the Assembly. Thus the rank-and-file party members with anti-Leninist sympathies are very much alive, very much still in the Party and we have had no indication that their freedom to speak has been limited. Until an update says different I don't see a problem with RPing anarchists, syndicalists, political freedom advocates etc.

I presented this wrong and botched up my point (what a fun Saturday night does to your brain maybe...). Let me clarify. I'm concerned that many people seem more willing to give their loyalties to unnecessary ideals instead of the true goal of this Revolution. If economic equality and prosperity are secured by authoritarian means and the people are given back their liberties in the end, don't the ends of Communism justify the prior authoritarian measures?

I'm not advocating Lenin become a Philosopher King. I don't think he has the economic knowledge to single-handedly guide us from our current state to universal equality and prosperity. I just wanted to point out it could work and that our loyalties should lie with the possibility it could work and not the strict need to maintain freedom and liberty.

Luckily, I can see you are not blindly loyal to some ideal but simply concerned on how we could reach Communism without upholding such ideals. I hope I've answered that for you .

Hmm. So your argument is that, by sacrificing temporarily our political liberty, we may gain more international power and economic equality. The ultimate problem with this is that economic equality cannot be compatible with political inequality. So either the economic equality will be warped in order to favour Lenin/his successor and the Party cadres, with them forming a sort of new "class" with the control of the means of production, or the political inequality will be destroyed and Lenin's rule will not be sustainable. Basically, while you are saying we can afford to lose democracy and liberty temporarily in order that we grow more equal and powerful, I am saying that without political freedom, we can do nothing but grow less equal, and the only ones that will grow more powerful are Lenin and co.

 

[naggy]

Coming out of character for a moment, you think that just because Lenin has killed the Anarchist ringleaders, opposition to Lenin in the Party would cease immediately?

No, but I think that anarchism as a force in the VSVR is dead and gone. Anarchist Central Committee members are dead, and I'm sure they'd have been mostly purged from the Politburo (if not killed during the civil war).

 

[Communard]

No, but I think that anarchism as a force in the VSVR is dead and gone. Anarchist Central Committee members are dead, and I'm sure they'd have been mostly purged from the Politburo (if not killed during the civil war).

Well, like I said, we are the rank-and-file. If Lenin had purged us it would be a rather large undertaking and I'm sure it would have been mentioned in the update. If expressing Anarchist opinion is a crime then it should be mentioned in an update. Until then, we have to assume that Lenin has simply ignored the problem.

 

[Raph]

Well, like I said, we are the rank-and-file. If Lenin had purged us it would be a rather large undertaking and I'm sure it would have been mentioned in the update. If expressing Anarchist opinion is a crime then it should be mentioned in an update. Until then, we have to assume that Lenin has simply ignored the problem.

Actually, if you read Tommy's post, there's not much of rank-and-file anarchists left. There should be some isolated few left though of course, and I don't think people should be told not to post about it. I don't think you should expect too much success, though.

 

[Tommy4ever]

I just saw something amusingly pathetic happen to a new Communist state.

*Inconsequencial spoiler alert*

Persia had a revolution. Yay! I though - a significant regional power has embraced our cause. A couple of weeks later Kalat (That tiny Princlet in modern day Western Pakistan) declared war. I though the Persians would stroll to victory. It took just two months for the Kalatese to win and secure the rather large south eastern province of Persia. Now that's failure.

 

[unmerged(140907)]

Mark my words. The Counter-Revolutionary cause is strong in Kalat. I wouldn't be surprised if they organize a Reactionary coalition to crush the Revolution worldwide!

 

[Tommy4ever]

To those asking about expressing 'Right' tendencies (ie Anarchist like or any other libertarian socialist). The Right of the Party does of course still exist, I'd be very suprised if it gets silenced altogether and Lenin has purposelly not trampled all over civil liberties (he needs to ensure mass support after all in a sensitive time). I'm just saying you shouldn't be looking to the Anarchists to lead you to power - right now they are effectively seen as a 'nutty' fringe group of extremists and criminals. The Right needs to find something new to united around and at the moment there doesn't seem to be anything for them to do just that. Wait until next week and I promise you this little problem shall be solved.

 

[SwiftRosenthal]

How soon will Denmark's nationalist regime be "shown the error of their ways" and "integrated" into the Universal Republic? Their denying of the international nature of the Revolution is in some ways much scarier than Lenin's recent actions.

I also reiterate my desire to see a Luxemburgist faction, especially now that the old libertarian factions are... defunct.

 

[enf91]

Tommy-
Are there any Comintern countries with liberal/anarcho-liberal governments? If so, I sense an Anarchist resurgence by the turn of the century.

 

[Ryke]

I'm also wondering about international support and such. The last couple decades of the 19th century and the first two decades of the 20th were basically the golden age of anarchism, and I'd expect the recent happenings to have the same impact as the Kronstadt incident in IOTL Russia. Basically, by now there should be forming some real opposition to orthodox Marxism or Marxism-Leninism on the international stage, as a sizeable number of people (though not the majority) see their actions as contrary to the revolution.

Until/unless Lenin and the Comintern put a lid on competing socialist ideas, the Marxist-Leninists won't have that much of an easy time in terms of international relations, even with revolutionaries.

 

[winsingtonIII]

Tommy-
Are there any Comintern countries with liberal/anarcho-liberal governments? If so, I sense an Anarchist resurgence by the turn of the century.

I'm pretty sure that's impossible in the game mechanics. Remember that traditionally, communist countries in this game are proletarian dictatorships that do not allow voting and I believe the only party in the upper house is the communist party for that country. The government of the VSVR is obviously modded and not a normally possible government type in game.

 

[enf91]

I'm pretty sure that's impossible in the game mechanics. Remember that traditionally, communist countries in this game are proletarian dictatorships that do not allow voting and I believe the only party in the upper house is the communist party for that country. The government of the VSVR is obviously modded and not a normally possible government type in game.

So what government is the VSVR? We've had Communist, Conservative, and Liberal governments. I assumed Tommy modded the files to allow this.

 

[Tommy4ever]

I'm pretty sure that's impossible in the game mechanics. Remember that traditionally, communist countries in this game are proletarian dictatorships that do not allow voting and I believe the only party in the upper house is the communist party for that country. The government of the VSVR is obviously modded and not a normally possible government type in game.

Actually I modded Proletarian dicatorships rather than create a new government type. This means all prol dicatorships can have any ruling party they like. Annoying they seem to choose the liberal party as often as the communist.

As for liberals, and therefore Anarchist, overseas sypathisers. Bhutan is liberal but I think we can assume they follow a more primitive peasant based communist system. Finland has an Anarcho-Liberal ruling party, a small amount of industry (40 points in game) and is of course home of Enewald. It is therefore a hotbed of Anarchism. Aside from that Cuba is the only noteworthy commie country with a liberal party.

In AAR terms the I'd imagine, as in RL, the USA's labour movement is heavily Anarchistic at this stage. There would also be a large number of Anarchists in France (although outnumbered by Marxists) and of course Italy - place of birth for the Anarchist martyr Malatesta.

So whilst smashed in the VSVR the Anarchist still have some strength in the International - however Helsinki is hardly a strong base for a movement hoping to challenge Cologne.

Aside from the Anarchist movement Lenin is also going to have to cofront the fascists in Denmark if he wants to achieve unity in the Comintern. Or he could just ignore these issues and not rock the boat, afterall noone wants the International dividing.

 

[cpteveros]

Would Lenin go so far as to try and extradite Enewald, or purge Finland of it's anarchists?