Lessons from a Low-Tech Start

[malakhglitch]

Before anything I'd like to say that I love the challenge the new low-tech civics pose, it definitely kept me on my toes. Onwards to the lessons learned.

EDIT

My apologies to those who have read this before I realized that I play with Remnants origin and so start with a research-type building. For those who don't use Remnants origin the order should be Scientific Method first and Hyperspace Travel second.

(Physics) If you are not gunning for the new achievement which requires you to not research hyperdrive tech, your first mission is to research Hyperspace Travel.
This is specially true if you are not a fan of micro-managing ships. Without hyperdrive tech you cannot set your explorer ships to auto-survey, you cannot even queue multiple survey orders because of the subspace drive cooldown time. Getting hyperdrive tech does not remove your ability to make subspace drive ships so unless an achievement is on the line you have everything to gain and nothing to lose by prioritizing hyperdrive tech.

(Physics) It is advised that your next physics tech target after hyperdrive tech is Scientific Method, which gives you Research Labs.
I don't think I need to go into detail on how important Research Labs are, yes?

(Society) Research Planetary Government/Planetary Plexus/Planetary Instantiation so that you can build Tier 2 Capital buildings.
Thankfully you start out with a Tier 2 Capital in your homeworld, but you won't be able to upgrade any colonies to Tier 2 without this tech. So it is best to have this tech research before any colonies reach 10 population or you are looking at some massive opportunity costs.

(Engineering) If you are inclined towards military action, you should prioritize researching Corvettes.
Low-tech starts do not start with the Corvettes technology, so that means you start with 0 Corvettes. While you can opt to make researching Corvettes a second or third priority, do keep in mind that the galaxy is a very dangerous place.

 

[SeekingEtermity]

... I'll be honest, I'm not sure I agree with this. It's true that the subspace drive requires obnoxious amounts of micro. A straightforward QoL change would be to let us queue jumps for as soon as the drive cools, but there's also other problems like the way that "survey system" or "Build <anything>" (from the galaxy map) OVERRIDES YOUR ORDER QUEUE if it requires a jump, so you can't say "do this research project, then survey that system", even if the drive is cooled down, without giving the survey order first and then Ctrl+Shift+clicking the research project to put it at the front of the queue before the ship completes the jump. That's certainly a problem.

But otherwise... eh. Even if you want hyperdrives early, research labs will let you finish the tech much, much faster while also getting other techs much faster, and in the very early game you can just listen for "system surveyed" notifications to issue new orders to your ships. Get the labs first, then the drives.

Hives cheat outrageously at the capitols thing. They don't have a tier-0 capital (equivalent of Deconstructed Ship Shelter or whatever it's called) so they don't get that downside; every colony starts with a tier 1 (what you're calling Tier 2) capitol already. You probably need to research the tech as a pre-req to getting the tech for upgraded capitols (what you'd call Tier 3, needs 25 pops) but that tech is years off anyhow. I forget if habitats have a tier 0 capitol but if not, Voidborn empires don't need it right away either.

Avoiding early military has long been a risky but often-viable strategy. Admittedly it requires exploiting the AI's stupidity somewhat - most AI empires will become Protective and offer to guarantee your independence first, and only then try to subjugate you (which they can't unless you voluntarily submit, because they specifically guarantee your independence!). Even on higher difficulties, it may be entirely viable build alliances + race for advanced starbases tech first (especially if you're playing the corporate version which starts with T2 starbases) and secure good choke points (easily done with subspace drives!) so you can hold off attackers, rather than trying to build ships. The main downside (other than risk) of this strategy is losing the power projection influence, which certainly does suck. Still, in my current game (which I admittedly stepped down to Admiral from my usual GA) it's 2283, and I have Jump Drives but still never researched Hyperdrives (admittedly this game did start as an achievement run, I just... didn't bother to ever get them even after I had the achievement) and I have built exactly 0 armed ships so far. I have a federation and also by far the highest personal Diplomatic Weight nonetheless.

 

[Less2]

I agree, research labs first. Not having hyperdrives is a micro nightmare, but you have the the superweapon of pausing the game with your space bar. Labs on the other hand massively improves your tech output which gets you out of the low tech start in the first place. The low tech is actually not that far behind at all, you just need to get labs up + districts to support them.

 

[malakhglitch]

Ah! I think I get where you guys are coming from. I kinda forgot that I use the Remnants origin and therefore have the Archaeotech building... Which means I essentially started out with a "lesser research lab."

Mea Culpa.

I have edited my original post to reflect that.

 

[malakhglitch]

Another lesson learned... If you find out that you are neighbors with a fanatical purifier early in the game, go start a new game.

 

[Arithmetician]

I agree with the others; research labs should be a priority.

Also, while I have not done any full runs, from some test setups, Technocracy will increase your starting total research from ~30 per month to ~51 per month, making it relatively more powerful to start with than a normal FTL start.

I see many people elsewhere have made the connection for taking the Slingshot to the Stars origin for the very steep discount it gives to building starbases in distant systems, which synergies with your ability to bypass hyperlanes with the subspace drive.

Galactic Doorstep is still likely very bad, given the amount of opportunity cost in the early game that it takes to actually unlock the gateways/construction, and that some events can be actively harmful. Though if one is going for the “Road Not Taken” achievement, it could be a way to link together otherwise distant colonies taken by skipping over hyperlanes - though I also understand that currently there is an issue where ships with subspace drives can’t actually use gateways, since they are treated like artificial hyperlanes. And there is certainly a lot of flavor in it, if one wants a sort of Mass Effect-esque run.

Another thought I have had is an Imperial Fiefdom origin. Certain versions of the Origin, such as Bulkwark, shore up some early weaknesses of starting with a significantly smaller tech and lower population. Bulwarks would be able to immediately build Destroyers, and receive five right away, when normally low-tech starts would start with zero corvettes and have to research them to begin with. And then there is the basic resource subsidy, making up for their own smaller population.

 

[Dragatus]

I'd like to note that the are variations between the "low tech" starts. The advice in this thread seems to be mostly about using the Eager Explorer civic and its variants. The low tech origins do start you with hyperlane travel.

(Engineering) If you are inclined towards military action, you should prioritize researching Corvettes.
Low-tech starts do not start with the Corvettes technology, so that means you start with 0 Corvettes. While you can opt to make researching Corvettes a second or third priority, do keep in mind that the galaxy is a very dangerous place.

A couple points here:
1) If you're inclined towards early military action this may not be the optimal civic to take. The speed boost is nice though, so it's a good civic for military action after an initial tech rush.
2) If you insist on early military action, taking the Imperial Fiefdom origin and choosing Bulwark specialization gives you Destroyers tech for free and you can just skip corvettes entirely.
3) Imperial Fiefdom is also a good origin for Eager Explorers who want to start with a tech rush because your overlord will protect you from early threats.
4) Though you start without corvettes, you do have defense stations and you're really good at skipping star systems and taking choke-points.
5) Sometimes the best defense is proactive diplomacy.

 

[Arithmetician]

@Dragatus

I wholly agree with point #5... a combination of well-placed envoys ands bribes.... err... gifts to other empires can usually provide solid protection /non-aggression in the early game, unless you’ve got something like a Purifier, Exterminator, or Devouring Swarm next door. And as an Imperial fiefdom, you would generally have the protection of your Overlord as well.

 

[Cosmic Fishering Fleet]

(Physics) If you are not gunning for the new achievement which requires you to not research hyperdrive tech, your first mission is to research Hyperspace Travel.

Hyperdrive is overrated. While Auto-Survey and Auto-Build are unavailable because of gutted pathfinding (warp ships were capable to travel without hyperlanes, but this part was culled because warp drives were culled), it is possible to get Jump Drives in less than eighty years if you are determined. The more pressing issue is, honestly, influence cost for outpost still being counted as number of hyperlane segments times seventy-five (base), which makes Stargazer Hive with Slingshot a much more powerful start than other low-tech starts.
My choice is Scientific Method, Improved Deflectors and Basic Cloaking, because Subspace Drive favours stealthy approach, given that you cannot leave system until you recharge your subspace drive unless you go MIA. Cloaked Exploratory Vessels are the best for finding leviathans and other interesting places.

 

[Arithmetician]

@Cosmic Fishering Fleet

The part about influence costs means that Xenophobe is likely a stronger ethic than normal for Subspace Drive empires, though there is the flip side that it makes diplomacy more difficult, when one’s weaker starting situation means one would ideally want to lean into diplomatcy for protection.

 

[Less2]

Taking the low tech civic + Megacorp + Hegemony/Common Ground really eases up the starting economic situation since branch offices are so strong, and your research agreement will both cover starting techs + your allies will be ahead of you in techs for a while. There's actually not much else to invest in otherwise since you start with normal districts but less pops to fill them, and you can't build up research labs.

Looking at the numbers, for the low tech origins the best thing to rush looks like the mining stations. You actually get a better than normal space resource start compared to normal empires. From there go for generators first. Of course convert energy into minerals as needed. Also be sure to pay attention to what jobs pops are actually working, the prioritization seems bad and they'll often stay in the low-tech jobs rather than go for your district jobs. Basically assume that you need to play with your prioritization every time a new job appears that you aren't already prioritizing.

Honestly Broken Shackles doesn't feel like a "challenging start" at all. Critically you don't start behind on pop numbers, so you're only about 3-5 years behind in tech and less in infrastructure investment. This seems more than compensated by having a plethora of pop climates to colonize with. And at least in my limited testing of a few starts it seems like you may spawn more habitable planets nearby to go with your array of pops? Not sure if I'm just getting lucky though. Getting like min 6 nearby worlds all at 80%+ habitability is a really huge advantage if you can manage your economy well to colonize them ASAP and get them going.

 

[malakhglitch]

Low-tech starts are arguably the most challenging starts there are. I am now seriously considering reducing the difficulty level down from a Scaling Grand Admiral (with x2 tech/trad).

 

[Arithmetician]

@malakhglitch

Even in scaling, there’s a big difference between scaling up until Midgame or Endgame. Which setting of scaling were you on?

But yeah, I was considering scaling at first when trying a low-tech game, because already on Grand Admiral it’s usually about 40 years before I can cautiously wage any offensive wars, and I have to go in heavy into starbases/Unyielding if I expect an early defensive war 10-20 years in.

That may be another argument in favor of the Imperial Fiefdom for a low-tech start... protection in that crucial phase of the game. The disadvantage is that, nearly every time I’ve played it, the Holy Empire has largely managed to reconsolidate after the civil war and become a large potential threat to the newly independent nations unless one can federate with it.

 

[Less2]

If you want to play non-scaling, Hegemon origin will (almost) always allow you to win your first war or two with no problem. They'll make the federation fleet and follow it with multiple fleets of ships. As I said earlier, a megacorp that opens a branch office day 1 can get a substantial economic head start.

Clone Army might still be viable enough for early unscaled wars on your own. Maybe. I don't think anything else is strong enough to go head to head early on.

I normally do end game scaling but my end game is 2300 or 2325 (would probably be 2325 for a more chill, hard start like this). If you're rushing in the first 20-30 years though it doesn't matter too much either way, the AI is barely getting bonuses at that point.

 

[Arithmetician]

Yeah... my most recent full campaign, pre-3.7, was with Clone Army, and that had me winning a war against a no-scaling Grand Admiral AI in year 40, though then I had to deal with the AIs that had actually snowballed and got multiple vassals each more powerful than the AI I had just conquered. That would not be nearly as viable with an Low Tech start.

 

[Less2]

Incidentally, if you thought playing without Hyperdrive was a challenge, Hegemony lets you attempt to conquer the galaxy without even having researched corvettes (can still build fed corvettes).

One downside of starting as megacorp though is that the megacorp version of the low tech start is clearly worse. No juicy +15% sublight speed bonus.

 

[malakhglitch]

Even in scaling, there’s a big difference between scaling up until Midgame or Endgame. Which setting of scaling were you on?

But yeah, I was considering scaling at first when trying a low-tech game, because already on Grand Admiral it’s usually about 40 years before I can cautiously wage any offensive wars, and I have to go in heavy into starbases/Unyielding if I expect an early defensive war 10-20 years in.

That may be another argument in favor of the Imperial Fiefdom for a low-tech start... protection in that crucial phase of the game. The disadvantage is that, nearly every time I’ve played it, the Holy Empire has largely managed to reconsolidate after the civil war and become a large potential threat to the newly independent nations unless one can federate with it.

I set it for mid-game scaling Grand Admiral. While I keep the standard 2300 mid-game, I set my tech/trad cost at x2 and usually play Remnant origin Rogue Servitor. My empire's pre-2030 survival is usually based on how lucky I am with my neighbors; a Fanatic Purifier, Determined Exterminator, or Devouring Swarm is cause for a new game.

 

[Millbot]

Broken shackles is surprisingly good for an origin. Granted, maybe I'll change my tune when I get a game where I spawn next to a genocidal neighbor and run into them fairly early on. Granted I took technocracy because I knew it would blunt the tech hit and I will say that probably is going to be a huge civic for normal empires that use a low-tech start.

I did go with a exploration protocol rogue servitor with the remnant origin. The bots had mass-production, efficient processors, repurposed hardware and high bandwidth, while the trophies had traditional, docile, adaptive, slow-learners and repugnant (can I say, I really wish rogue servitor had a few more traits to pick from for optimizing their trophies). Not entirely sure if I have the best trait setup, like maybe I should have dropped efficient processors for something else, but with the hampered economy, I kind of need more of everything except food, but can leave the farm jobs empty, which is what I did. I mean, I need consumer goods and I can sell off the excess. 5% to alloys, research, minerals and energy is all good. Yes, the other traits would get me more of at least one resource, but that might not be enough to offset getting 5% more of everything. Biotrophies have a similar deal, I'm left wondering if I should have dropped docile for rapid breeders, that might have gotten me more unity, but it does come at the expense of having to move more pops into producing more amenities sooner. Only really need one pop for the CGs for quite some time and farm jobs can be delayed with the starbase building that makes food.

Anyways pretty rough start, year 2031 one and still haven't completed two traditions. Maybe I should have grabbed rapid breeders for more trophies to pop out more unity. I'll admit I probably could have sped things up by putting the max amount of CGs on the market before the value goes down, that way I could have started a monthly trade to get more minerals to get mining stations online and also purchasing alloys. I will say, that it does seem like there was an intended or unintended change to the internal market because the cost of alloys started going up when I had it at 4 and CGs started tanking when I had it 10 per month. Granted I could be misremembering the numbers. Also forgot to trash my crew quarters starbase building on day one because you really can't justify spending one energy on reducing fleet upkeep for fleets you don't have.

The archaeotech research faculty was a huge boon because it took me forever to stabilize things to get to a point where I could even build my first research lab. Just didn't have the pops and I was going into a slight negative for amenities at times. Again maybe should have pushed that lower to free up pops. Anyways, I know people say they bankrupt themselves keeping that building going with remnant origin, but seemed like my diminished economy had plenty of energy to spare. Sure I could have turned it off and free up more energy for monthly resource trades, but that comes with a huge hit to research, which probably offsets the gains.

I do like how this build incentivizes me to proactively jump one or two exploration vessels out well past my borders once I lock down my expansion template (aka prevent other empires from claiming unowned systems), until I find first contact opportunity. Start up the process, maybe stop advancing my ships if I don't have the envoys to spare, after all why give empires a chance to make contact before me. That way I can finish the process and get both an influence and unity payout (do need to see if the unity scales with my unity output or not). The unity gain really does help offset the economy hit. That said, it feels like the build probably should get one or two more envoys instead of the base standard of two. It's kind of odd for a first contact oriented empire to have a similar number of envoys as those that don't care as much for first contact.

Two other things I can say before I get a chance to play other subspace builds.

The civic probably should start without the starbase building that reduces ship upkeep. It's going to be a bit before we can get a fleet up, if we so choose and a little longer to hit a point where we at least break even on the upkeep. This essentially makes it a trap for some players, while being another bit of obnoxious micro we have to remember for day one. To be honest, I wish the devs had a better setup for that starbase building because I often trash it on day one with my non-subspace builds. Usually, starting fleets don't get a 1 energy upkeep reduction, so it's costing more energy than it saves you. I'd rather be given a few more energy or alloys instead. The subspace builds definitely should be given some other option be that a special primitive starbase building that can be upgraded into something better or no starbase building at all. Otherwise it's just a pointless bleed of 1 energy, that could be better spend elsewhere be that monthly trades or stockpiling it for later use.

Then of course there is how we can't queue anything with the jump drive, except you can queue up auto construction and auto exploration. This isn't exactly idea since the auto construction can get stuck in a loop if you don't disable it before your next jump.

I also somewhat agree with the idea that since these builds don't see hyperlanes, at least for a bit, even if they choose to go for the tech, but that shouldn't be your first physic research option. Seriously, labs should, even if you won't be building one until you have researched some other physics techs because you want to make sure you can build a research lab the moment you need to build one. Even as a challenging civic, it doesn't make much sense for hyperlanes to be the sole determination of starbase influence build costs. Stargazer really has the right idea, probably that one should get the best discount, but the rest maybe should get a 5% influence discount.

I need to either play more subspace empire builds or see what people have to say once they play more and one of those playthroughs includes rogue servitor. I know broken shackles, likely skews my perception, given how good it is. It really does seem like my build was really rough, I don't know how much of that was some of my choices or if it's just really rough for rogue servitors that pick this civic. If it is the later, that then gets to the question of should anything be adjusted for rogue servitors specifically or just except it being rather brutal for builds that go exploration protocols and rogue servitor.

 

[malakhglitch]

I did go with a exploration protocol rogue servitor with the remnant origin. The bots had mass-production, efficient processors, repurposed hardware and high bandwidth, while the trophies had traditional, docile, adaptive, slow-learners and repugnant (can I say, I really wish rogue servitor had a few more traits to pick from for optimizing their trophies). Not entirely sure if I have the best trait setup, like maybe I should have dropped efficient processors for something else, but with the hampered economy, I kind of need more of everything except food, but can leave the farm jobs empty, which is what I did. I mean, I need consumer goods and I can sell off the excess. 5% to alloys, research, minerals and energy is all good. Yes, the other traits would get me more of at least one resource, but that might not be enough to offset getting 5% more of everything. Biotrophies have a similar deal, I'm left wondering if I should have dropped docile for rapid breeders, that might have gotten me more unity, but it does come at the expense of having to move more pops into producing more amenities sooner. Only really need one pop for the CGs for quite some time and farm jobs can be delayed with the starbase building that makes food.

Repugnant, Slow Learners and Solitary are the negative traits for optimizing bio-trophies. Docile is not really needed at the start (and since it's a positive trait cannot be removed). Incubators or Rapid Breeders would have been a better choice.

Yeah, I have to dismantle the Service Umbilicals and demolish the Mining District. Then I have to reduce the Maintenance Drones to 2, prioritize Agriculture Drones, reduce Agriculture Drones to 1, reduce Artisan Drones to 0. and then reduce Hunter-Seeker Drones to 0. After that it's a lot of micro-managing to ensure that the economy doesn't crash.

Anyways pretty rough start, year 2031 one and still haven't completed two traditions. Maybe I should have grabbed rapid breeders for more trophies to pop out more unity. I'll admit I probably could have sped things up by putting the max amount of CGs on the market before the value goes down, that way I could have started a monthly trade to get more minerals to get mining stations online and also purchasing alloys. I will say, that it does seem like there was an intended or unintended change to the internal market because the cost of alloys started going up when I had it at 4 and CGs started tanking when I had it 10 per month. Granted I could be misremembering the numbers. Also forgot to trash my crew quarters starbase building on day one because you really can't justify spending one energy on reducing fleet upkeep for fleets you don't have.

Two Traditions by 2030 is doable even with 2x tech/trad cost. That must have been a really rough start for that to happen.

In my current game I found myself bordered on my galactic west by the Keepers of Knowledge FE, by an Honorbound Warrior empire to the galactic north, and a Hegemonic Imperialist empire to the galactic south. Beyond the initial rush of getting systems to create bottlenecks, my expansion speed is literally cut in half because I managed to get Defensive Agreements with both regular empires.

 

[Millbot]

Yeah, probably should have gone with rapid breeders for the extra unity.

I've been avoiding diplomatic pacts because I want the influence to finish claiming systems with habitable worlds, regardless of whether they are inhabited with primitives or not. Been wanting to experiment with the primitive stuff. Also systems with digsites.

Probably one other area where I could have done a better job, is probably could have passed up on claiming a few lackluster systems. Still in the mindset of minimizing piracy, which rogue servitor doesn't have, so I can leave some systems unclaimed and not have to worry about piracy building up in them and cutting me of from trade value. Probably would have net a slight reduction in my current sprawl.

If the AI weren't so predisposed to limited expansion, I'd agree to be a vassal with one of my neighbors, but I want to expand without being restricted, so not happening. If I do allow myself to be a vassal, not sure if I should go bulwark or if the scholarium would be a better choice.

Probably not helped by the fact that I've yet to pull any pop assembly techs. Greater pop growth would have probably really heped.

Anyways further thoughts on tweaks for just exploration protocol rogue servitors. Given that the service umbilicals is useless and that my agricultural district didn't see much use. Like it went a few years unused because I could afford to run a deficit on food and latter got the hydroponics bay, but I didn't demolish it because the mineral cost more than offsets what little energy I would save. Perhaps give exploration protocol rogue servitors the tech to build hydroponics bays from the start, replace their service umbilicals with a hydroponics bay, remove the agricultural district and maybe either give them a more minerals on hand or an additional mineral deposit in their system to offset not having that agricultural district. Even for one that goes with lithoids, that would be more useful than the service umbilicals because the excess food can always be sold for more energy than the hydroponics bay uses. They save some energy by having one less district and it might not be a huge hit if they are compensated for that in some other way because those do take time and minerals to build.

I don't know if that option would be the best option for other subspace empires. Give themt eh hydroponics bay tech and starbase building, so they don't spend one energy credit to lower upkeep costs for their nonexistent fleets or not get enough cost savings to offset the upkeep. (as an aide, bulwark start is probably the only time you get that starbase building and save more energy on fleet upkeep, than you pay for the starbase buildings upkeep). Machine and lithoid empires can always just sell the unneeded food for energy credits at a profit. Heck, the game could always start with a 10 food for energy monthly trade going for both pure machine and lithoid empires, so that less savvy players don't feel like they got screwed if they forget to set the trade deal up on day one.