Lending ships from trade posts - Republic gameplay

[Negru Voda]

Here's some food for thought - I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.

1. So we have confirmed that there will be trade post holdings, that the player will be able to build in coastal provinces of foreign realms.
2. I never really liked mercenary navies and how they worked. Basically the idea for these troops was to allow landlocked forces to cross the seas.
3. One drawback of this method was that it was very costly and inflexible, and almost impossible to use if you weren't a powerful lord, as it was very expensive.
4. I was wondering if now, with the trade posts, it could be possible to use them as universal ports for raising ships.

Lemme illustrate why this is kinda nice with a hypothetical example of this stuff in action:

• Say I am a Croatian count of Usora [a landlocked county]
• Venice has a trade post in Zadar.
• I am at war with County of Malta [don't ask why - You can think of Count of Modena fighting Count of Corsica with a trade post in Lucca]
• I raise my troops, go to Zadar. If there is a trade port, a mechanic should be in place by which I can rent a fleet and embark my troops.
• The rent I pay should go to the owner of the trade post.

The upshot of this mechanic is that the rented fleet can be 10 ships, just enough to do the trick for a small Lord, without bankrupting him.

Debatable Details:

1 - The simplest version - Trade post has infinite ships:

• If you have troops in a province with a trade post, you have the "embark army" option available, and you rent out exactly the number of ships you require to get the troops ferried.

[This version might be the best way to start with in the Republic DLC, and try to test out other ones for later patches/updates]

2 - More complicated, but more interesting - Trade post has upgradable ship levee:

• You can click the "raise ship levee" button on the trade post.
• Every click raises 5 or 10 ships.
• You don't have to have troops stationed in the province.
• You can raise ships from any trade post you think is most practical.
• You can raise up to the max that the trade post has disposable.

[This version motivates players of Republics to expand trade post coverage and capacity strategically]

EDIT: 3 - [Sir Tornado's counter/additional-proposal] - Trade Posts in the Mercenary Screen:

• Open military section
• There should be a tab next to mercenary called "Republic fleets" or something
• Below that, a list of trading posts within range from your capital, with its price, depending on number of ships the trade post can supply.
• You can select the one that fits your needs just like you do with mercenary armies right now.
• Once hired, the ships can show up in a sea near your capital.
• The rent I pay should go to the [Patrician] owner of the trade post.

[I think both 2 & 3 could be implemented in parallel.]

4 - Most complicated - Just expanding the 2nd version

• Nerfing City Ship Levee: The more complicated version would become even more interesting if cities' ship levee size would be reduced by 25%-50%, so that trade posts' naval significance is emphasized and lords might have to appeal to Republics to get their whole army ferried in mass.
• Doge Relations and Rent: The cost of the ship rent that the Lord must pay could be modified by relations with the Doge, or perhaps some new Realm Laws that deal with trade post rights and obligations. EDIT [Sir Tornado's suggestion]: or instead of Doge, it might be more fun whichever Patrician the trade post is under.
• Rent and Crew Costs:Finally, maybe not all the rent payed by the Lord goes to the Doge, simulating Crew Costs and other costs [Perhaps just half or one forth of the rent - this could also be affected by Republic Realm Laws affecting rights and obligations of trade posts]
• EDIT - Crew, Patrician, Doge [Sir Tornado inspired]: Alternatively to the above arrangement, maybe some of the rent goes to crew and ship upkeep (no one gets it), some goes to the Patrician, and some goes to the ruling Doge - again Republic laws might affect this break-down.
• EDIT - Stewardship playing a role [DamianGrim's suggestion]: "Maybe the embark button should lead to negotiation event of the rent price. I.e. if you have great stewardship, you can try to lower the price (or get even higher price if your stewardship is poor)"

 

[Darkgamma]

I support this.

 

[burny26]

support, i just hope the AI can handle this :/

 

[Hackworthy]

While better availability of ships for poor Counts and Dukes is a good idea, nerfing cities is not. The idea of someone like the King of England needing to hire a merchant fleet is silly.

 

[Negru Voda]

The idea of someone like the King of England needing to hire a merchant fleet is silly.

Hmm, good point. But even so, as things currently stand, I think you can still raise twice as many ships as you would need to get a sizable force around. I think even with a 25% nerfing it would all still be ok.

I dunno, I think it's debatable. But I still agree that England shouldn't have to rely on renting ships.

 

[dorukdorucu]

Nerfing the cities is unnecessary, the other points are good ideas though. They'll probably have something related to naval stuff coming with the DLC anyway, so why not?

 

[Divi]

While better availability of ships for poor Counts and Dukes is a good idea, nerfing cities is not. The idea of someone like the King of England needing to hire a merchant fleet is silly.

That's how the king of england operated until the navy was formalized in the 16th century under the Tudors. There were a handful of shipsokes with obligation to provide a ship (each shipsoke was 300 hides in theory, IIRC), everything else was contracted from merchant fleets.

England became a naval power in the 16th century and it took until the 7yw for it to establish dominance, which it only cemented after the Napoleonic wars; before that the royal navy was very much not invincible to any degree.

 

[Negru Voda]

support, i just hope the AI can handle this :/

With the simple version outlined, it should be pretty easy for the AI. Even easier than it is now perhaps. As the AI would just have to calculate the path by:
1 - Identify the point of departure of the land-locked army
2 - Identify the point of destination
3 - Identify the shortest path of provinces [land and sea]
4 - Identify the trade post nearest to the path of provinces and on the departure side of the shore [of the water mass to be crossed]

Alternatively I don't think the AI would have much trouble identifying the closest trade posts under the other configurations either, as they would simply hire the ships without having to move their troops over to the trade posts. Then they would merge the ships on the departure shore and embark them.

 

[Grubnessul]

While better availability of ships for poor Counts and Dukes is a good idea, nerfing cities is not. The idea of someone like the King of England needing to hire a merchant fleet is silly.

I don't think England really had a navy at this point in time. Real state build navies were only found in the Mediterranean. Other kings did indeed hire or commissioned merchant ships.

 

[DLFebin]

I like the idea. It will add some historicity.
Maybe the embark button should lead to negotiation of the rent price event chain. I.e. if you have great stewardship, you can try to lower the price (or get even higher price if your stewardship is poor), but it is probably unnecessary, even if adds to the flavor.

 

[Negru Voda]

I like the idea. It will add some historicity.

It would also cause some interesting dynamics for the Merchant families gameplay within the same Republic, as I think trade posts are built and somehow under the ownership of the famillia. So if you're a head of family, you want to try to expand your trade posts around areas that might serve as useful for rent, or you might also want to capture the much used, larger trade posts from your adversary families.

Maybe the embark button should lead to negotiation of the rent price event chain. I.e. if you have great stewardship, you can try to lower the price (or get even higher price if your stewardship is poor), but it is probably unnecessary, even if adds to the flavor.

I included your suggestion in the OP. Seems like stewardship could play a role. Or Diplomacy+Stewardship?

 

[Hackworthy]

That's how the king of england operated until the navy was formalized in the 16th century under the Tudors. There were a handful of shipsokes with obligation to provide a ship (each shipsoke was 300 hides in theory, IIRC), everything else was contracted from merchant fleets.

England became a naval power in the 16th century and it took until the 7yw for it to establish dominance, which it only cemented after the Napoleonic wars; before that the royal navy was very much not invincible to any degree.

But that's exactly the point, when you raise ships from a city port you are commandeering merchant vessels, among other things. It's already the way things work, there's no need for a King who can already just jackboot the ships of compatriots into his service, to rent a foreign merchant navy. So while renting ships from a maritime republic works fine for lesser lords, a powerful ruler should have no need of it.

 

[DLFebin]

I included your suggestion in the OP. Seems like stewardship could play a role. Or Diplomacy+Stewardship?

Why not. Maybe it should be done through hidden options as it is now in some events. Maybe even traits can play a role.

 

[ShadowGamer42]

Yeah, high stewardship (and maybe high diplomacy, though with lesser effects) could make the price cheaper. So now you can crusade as Bohemia.

 

[nitroholic]

Really like this idea. Could add some more depth to the crusades as well; would be nice to see armies being shipped over to Jerusalem instead of just aimlessly standing around.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

Yeah, the ferrying is a really good idea.

 

[Gingerninja]

Lets stop talking about England and start talking about Norway. That way the original point remains valid. No way the king of Norway asked merchants to give him a fleet. They were all from his "Vassals" (Feudal system wasn't really implemented properly in Norway... Ever)
I support this. Except for the nerfing of cities, which might make sense for most, but won't make sense for Norway.

 

[Sir Tornado]

More complicated, but more interesting - Trade post has upgradable ship levee:

You can click the "raise ship levee" button on the trade post. Every click raises 5 or 10 ships. You don't have to have troops stationed in the province. You can raise ships from any trade post you think is most practical. You can raise up to the max that the trade post has disposable.

You don't need to make it so complex. Make it so that you can hire ships from individual trading post (provided it is in range) using the mercenary window for a fixed price (like you can currently hire ships from Venice/Genoa/Hansa). Once hired, the ships can show up in a sea near your capital like it does now. The only difference would be that you would get only 10-20 ships instead of 100 you get now. Also, you won't be hiring from the Doge, you would be hiring it from the patrician who owns the trade post.

What I mean is: If you open military section, there should be a tab next to mercenary called "Republic fleets" or something. Below that, a list of trading posts within range from your capital, with its price, depending on number of ships the trade post can supply. You can select the one that fits your needs just like you do with mercenary armies right now.

But that's exactly the point, when you raise ships from a city port you are commandeering merchant vessels, among other things. It's already the way things work, there's no need for a King who can already just jackboot the ships of compatriots into his service, to rent a foreign merchant navy. So while renting ships from a maritime republic works fine for lesser lords, a powerful ruler should have no need of it.

But historically, Crusaders did require Venetian navy to carry them to the Holy Land. Despite the crusaders counting the HRE, King of England and the King of France among its members.

It makes perfect sense!

Cities' ship levies should be nerfed, so that larger kingdoms are dependent upon merchant republics to transfer 200k+ troops around...

 

[Negru Voda]

Also, you won't be hiring from the Doge, you would be hiring it from the patrician who owns the trade post.

Yea, that's what I was thinking when I originally wrote the idea out, but then by the end of my OP I forgot and mentioned Doge instead of Patrician.

As for the system you proposed: It definitely could also work, and I guess it does sound simpler as it is maybe easier to implement in the existing user interface structure/mechanics. But I think it would be more streamlined to just be able to raise progressively from any trade post. Maybe both mechanics can be in at the same time.

I'll incorporate your suggestions in the OP, thanks for the feedback.

 

[Talq]

While there are some good ideas there, I'm not comfortable with this mechanic as
a) it overstates the shipping available from trade posts vs cities. Trade posts didn't have a bunch of ships sitting in the harbor available for any budding conquerer. The harbor belonged to the city, and any ships are meant to be trading and are not available for adventures. The republic's trade networks supported more ships for the republic, but the proviso is that most of the time they had to be trading (that being how they recovered the costs of building and equiping them).
b) it understates the diplomatic issue. Venice (& the other city states) did supply shipping to land locked nations (usually for a steep fee), yes. Individual families did not, and would not do so if that was percieved as against the interests of the city state

Probably the best way forward is to have it be from both cities and trade posts (as people said, you cant seriously have the King of England (or Norway!) requiring a merchant state fleet to get troops off the islands), and a favorable attitude by the liege (+ve relations with you and better relations with you than anybody you war against. And yes, you must pay, more than the owner would (its an incentive for you to rule sea coast).

But historically, Crusaders did require Venetian navy to carry them to the Holy Land. Despite the crusaders counting the HRE, King of England and the King of France among its members.

There were a large number of crusades with varying memberships. The went varying ways (eg the first crusade was entirely overland). The one crusade that featured the HRE, King of France & King of England at the same time was the third, of that the HRE went overland (initally - stupid decision), the French used their mediterranean ports (& possibly Genoa), and the English requisitioned ships from their own ports (which at this time was both normandy & the english coast). Note also that the HRE is mainly inland (and was hardly going to embark in the Baltic sea if they could get ships a bit closer) One or the other may have used the Venetian navy once in the mediterranean (especially for operations against Acre) but thats not getting there (& the Italian republics were not unwilling to help, given their interests in the Levant, and the fall of Jerusalem). The crusade that hired the Venetian navy as a group (& then hijinks ensured) was the fourth crusade and had no kings.