Leichte Divisions and Panzers or only Panzers?

[PARAfel]

Hi guys, i had in my thoughts a slow progression about the game and this includes about creating others templates to balance others divisions.

For example: if you had 10 Panzers and 5 Leichte divisions (you will craft these templates using less tanks and motorized as well as support). you will note that the opossite of they (panzer is more strenght but less ORG and SPEED) will create an balance in the forces and you will not suffer so much within panzers-divisions being so heavy.

This is correct?

 

[Meglok]

SP or MP, it makes a difference.

That said, IF I am making a Leichte Division, it is only motorized units and light tanks or chassis units. The purpose in game of a Leichte Division is exploitation speed. Putting medium tanks in the template can cost you a lot of speed.

Early game it has the firepower to breakthrough and exploit to make large encirclements before the enemy can get away. Late game it can be in the second line and exploit any breakthrough made by Panzers far faster than the Panzers could move. You just have to take care not to get engaged by enemy tanks which will trash the template.

 

[Corpse Fool]

What are you calling a leichte division, a lighter tank division?

You should be aiming to have 40 wide tanks, being supported by 20 wide motorized. The goal is to have only the cutting edge of your thrust into enemy territory made out of the expensive tank division, while the shaft whose purpose is only to maintain the corridor is made out of much cheaper and much more defensively capable motorized divisions. As the tanks move forward, motorized are left to defend each province taken. Those motorized will eventually get relieved by leg infantry, when they catch up and entrench themselves, and then the motorized leave to keep pace with the tanks again.

 

[desphorin]

ummm what is a Leichte division

 

[PARAfel]

What are you calling a leichte division, a lighter tank division?

ummm what is a Leichte division

It is a light tank division yeah... 4 tanks and 3 mot or 3 tank and 3 mot

 

[Corpse Fool]

It is a light tank division yeah... 4 tanks and 3 mot or 3 tank and 3 mot

I was expecting something more along the lines of 8 motorized 2 tanks. Or at least something that matches up with 20 width. Being 14 or 12 width is extremely risky. What are the standard tank divisions you are otherwise using?

 

[Paul.Ketcham]

I was expecting something more along the lines of 8 motorized 2 tanks. Or at least something that matches up with 20 width. Being 14 or 12 width is extremely risky. What are the standard tank divisions you are otherwise using?

I would definitely second this. Usually a "Leichte Division" for me consists of 1 or 2 light tanks (or 1 light tank and 1 light TD) mixed with 8 motorized, possibly including motorized artillery as well (which scales better into late-game than light SPG-3, and is already in production). That way, it acts less as a tank division and more as an offensive infantry division to support medium tanks with your leftover light tanks.

4 tanks and 3 motorized is too small (low HP) and too light on infantry (low org) to be very effective, and after 1939 light tanks really start to fall off in capabilities. Their only real benefits in the mid-to-late game are breakthrough and speed.

 

[PARAfel]

In large extend i use the Leichte division from 1939 Start and just add 1+ support or few units of tanks and mot.

I do like to add an Leichte division will be able to support main tanks, filling empty spaces in the infiltration zone or attacking jointly with the Panzers doing an more optimized attack and spot.

 

[xtfoster]

For me (and I only play SP) the leichte divisions are the starting panzer divisions gradually increased to 20 width, trying to keep a roughly 2:1 ratio of tanks to motorized infantry. Usually, 4 LArm, 1 LSPArt, and 1 LSPAAG with 4 Mot (but sometimes I go with 5 LArm, 1 LSPAAG, 3 Mot and 1 SPRArt if I have actually decided to research and build Raketen-Vielfachwerfer). I then take that template and convert it to MArm (I don't play 40w, don't need it in SP) except the LSPAAG since I rarely research or build MSPAAG.

 

[PARAfel]

For me (and I only play SP) the leichte divisions are the starting panzer divisions gradually increased to 20 width, trying to keep a roughly 2:1 ratio of tanks to motorized infantry. Usually, 4 LArm, 1 LSPArt, and 1 LSPAAG with 4 Mot (but sometimes I go with 5 LArm, 1 LSPAAG, 3 Mot and 1 SPRArt if I have actually decided to research and build Raketen-Vielfachwerfer). I then take that template and convert it to MArm (I don't play 40w, don't need it in SP) except the LSPAAG since I rarely research or build MSPAAG.

Well is an idea. I have an ideia to keep the integrity from the templates inicially and i just create an medium tank in the panzers and i keep the leichte as much as original as game presented in 1939 start, these differences is just operacional one.

 

[Corpse Fool]

possibly including motorized artillery as well (which scales better into late-game than light SPG-3, and is already in production).

Motorized artillery are actually quite inefficient, even into the late game. I'm a lot more active on the hoi4 subreddit than this forum so I'm not sure how to properly format my links but this is a comment of mine that links 2 other comments, which has a lot of information about the various options for fast artillery. Motorized artillery is most often found in last place. Already producing artillery is not a good argument, and it can also be said that you can use the conversion mechanics to use up all of your older light tanks and make the SPG battalion comparatively cheaper.

In large extend i use the Leichte division from 1939 Start and just add 1+ support or few units of tanks and mot.

I was asking about what your dedicated tank divisions are. It has already been shown that your liechte divisions need a lot of work to be more optimal.

Usually, 4 LArm, 1 LSPArt, and 1 LSPAAG with 4 Mot (but sometimes I go with 5 LArm, 1 LSPAAG, 3 Mot and 1 SPRArt if I have actually decided to research and build Raketen-Vielfachwerfer). I then take that template and convert it to MArm (I don't play 40w, don't need it in SP) except the LSPAAG since I rarely research or build MSPAAG.

You used a lot of words to say that sometimes you drop 1 motorized and pick up another tank battalion. There is a minor difference in what fast-arty you're using, and not having a standardized list of shorthand (or at least, having more than 1 competing standard) makes me have to double check if you're saying what I think you're saying.

I disagree that you don't need 40 wide in SP, but you should definitely be using the MSPAA. Those are the absolutely most cost effective sources of AA in the game.

 

[xtfoster]

I disagree that you don't need 40 wide in SP, but you should definitely be using the MSPAA. Those are the absolutely most cost effective sources of AA in the game.

In SP I could do a World Conquest using only 2w Leg Infantry with no supports. Wouldn't be ideal, but against the AI it would work.

 

[PARAfel]

SP or MP, it makes a difference.

That said, IF I am making a Leichte Division, it is only motorized units and light tanks or chassis units. The purpose in game of a Leichte Division is exploitation speed. Putting medium tanks in the template can cost you a lot of speed.

Early game it has the firepower to breakthrough and exploit to make large encirclements before the enemy can get away. Late game it can be in the second line and exploit any breakthrough made by Panzers far faster than the Panzers could move. You just have to take care not to get engaged by enemy tanks which will trash the template.

What is your Leichte and Regular Panzer Division?

I was asking about what your dedicated tank divisions are. It has already been shown that your liechte divisions need a lot of work to be more optimal.

The same as the original i only put 1 Medium and 4 Supports or 5

 

[Corpse Fool]

In SP I could do a World Conquest using only 2w Leg Infantry with no supports. Wouldn't be ideal, but against the AI it would work.

Some people have great difficulty playing this game even against the AI, and they will need every advantage they can get. Even if you're treating single player as practice for multi player, you're supposed to be practicing the way you intend to actually play, which will often involve 40 wide templates.

I don't want anyone to develop training scars from only reacting to what the AI does do, instead of the myriad of possibilities. The US Navy suffered a defeat in the battle for savo island because the commander assumed what the enemy would be doing, instead of what they could be doing.

 

[Corpse Fool]

The same as the original i only put 1 Medium and 4 Supports or 5

You need to spend a lot of time working with the division designer and actually making good templates.

The two armored divisions that Germany starts with in '39 are terrible. The leichte which has 1 light tank 4 motorized, motorized recon and engineers. This is 10 wide, should be at least 20, just straight double it up to 2 light tanks 8 motorized, throw the recon in the trash where it belongs and give them logistics and support artillery, maybe signal company as well.

The panzer-division is not much better off, 4 light tanks 3 motorized, motorized recon and engineers. This is only 14 width, and only adding 1 medium tank and filling up the supports doesn't really solve the problem that the template has. Even if you didn't want to use 40 wide templates for some reason, you would see a lot of benefit in using 20 wide templates. A common 20 wide template is 6 or 7 tanks and 4 or 3 motorized. Others suggest 5 tanks 2 SPG and 2 motorized, though I personally think that one is a bit lacking in HP. Being a tank division, logistics, engineers, and maybe signal are the only supports you should need. Once you unlock mediums and start producing them, phase the light tanks out of your primary fighting tanks, they are holding your armor and attack values back.

Of course, if enemy aircraft are a threat use support AA. If they are more of a threat than what a single support company can handle, use 2 SPAA battalions.

 

[Meglok]

What is your Leichte and Regular Panzer Division?

The same as the original i only put 1 Medium and 4 Supports or 5

Depends upon the date and whether it is mp or sp. Also depends how much I am facing enemy bombers. If I have to devote a lot of IC to the Luftwaffe it takes away from IC available to build tanks and trucks.

Generally speaking, SP builds are going to be 20-26 width, mp would have to be 40 width asap. Leichte are going to be a mix of LT, LtSpG, mot art, and motor. Panzers are going to be a mix of MT, LT, Lt or Medium SpG, mot art, and motor. Hardness and armor really depends upon the date. Poland and France are going to see lighter units, Russia will see heavier upgraded units.

I have rarely if ever added half-tracks. I prefer speed as it is easier to kill by encirclement than slogging thru enemy armor. Infantry with AT guns will kill tanks fine, esp if CAS is pounding the enemy while infantry pins it.