Anyone interested in a Legend of the Galactic Heroes mod? I don't have the skills but I would be supper keen to try one out.
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Legend of the Galactic Heroes
- Thread starter Dalinski
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I'd be interested too. Love LoGH, and I'm interested in trying my hand at modding.
Biggest issue I can think of is how to translate Stellaris game mechanics for LoGH. The fact there's only three nations in the show, for example. Or how the show covers only a small time period, with few tech advancements. Massively increased importance of leader characters. It'd be quite the challenge to actually make it work out.
Sounds like a fun challenge. Think I'll start brainstorming how the mechanics should be tweaked for it.
Biggest issue I can think of is how to translate Stellaris game mechanics for LoGH. The fact there's only three nations in the show, for example. Or how the show covers only a small time period, with few tech advancements. Massively increased importance of leader characters. It'd be quite the challenge to actually make it work out.
Sounds like a fun challenge. Think I'll start brainstorming how the mechanics should be tweaked for it.
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Not really, just do a galaxy with 2 choke points, Iserlohn and Fezzan, 2 factions, 1 democratic and the other despotic empire, remove all pre-warp, primitive, alien species and just let humans battle it out.
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Actually I think that, apart from the galaxy setup itself, the core game mechanics are pretty well suited to LotGH, especially when looking at the potential for internal conflicts within the factions. If empires can be pre-scripted to appear in the galaxy (or if there could be a "scenario" savegame) I can definitely see Stellaris working very well for LotGH.
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I've been thinking about it a lot the past few days, and the more I think about it the more it seems Crusader Kings II would actually be a much better fit for LoGH. Trying to boil down the 'essence' of what makes LoGH LoGH, I get two main points - most important is the effect single individuals can have on history (basically the Great Man Theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man_theory) and the interactions between said individuals, second is grand military tactics/strategy. That first point is the big one, and it just screams CKII. But this is Stellaris, not CKII, and I've got some ideas on how to work it out. Waiting to get more info on modding capabilities before working anything in detail, especially in regards to leaders, sectors and diplomacy. Now if only it'll be possible to add in some simplified version of CKII character dynamics for leaders, but that's super wishful thinking.
I will say that if I made it I'd focus on trying to capture that essence of the series, not the exact setup as given. I'd likely try to create a scenario mode, with a static galaxy set up like shortly before the start of the series. But the main mode would be more dynamic, probably starting at or shortly after the rise of Goldenbaum with the potential for various splinter groups to form - the FPA being the default, but others could form as well, even original factions dynamically spawned based on the actions taken by other nations. But those great men (leaders) would be the centerpiece, affecting everything in game with a huge variety of possible events and interactions between them. But a lot of this is hopeful thinking, depends on just how much the modding tools will let us do.
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While it certainly is possible to make CKII do space, anyone who has played Crisis of the Confederation will tell you it's awkward and can't handle naval combat very well at all (I remember all the times I had my navy in the same place as another navy and they just sat there playing cards instead of fighting). In addition, your "great man" theory doesn't really mesh well with how the anime actually played out. While individuals did have a significant influence, it was rather society that shaped them into this. Without Reinhard's sister being sent to the Kaiser, he never gets the drive needed to grab his ambitions, and without her in that position to influence the Kaiser, he never gets the favor that puts him in the spotlight in the first place. In addition, the various political and economical issues had a far larger effect on the eventual outcome than the individual in and of themselves did, though they each played off of each other; the individual shaping political and economic policy, while politics and economic situation shaped the individuals.
Therefore having individuals be the largest part of a GRAND STRATEGY game would be folly at best. It'd be like having Amuro in Mobile Suit Gundam be as overpowered as he was in the Anime, making any other unit useless in a Mobile Suit Gundam mod for HoI4.
Yeah, I don't know much about CKII modding really, I've only played it a tiny bit and it just wasn't my game. Just heard others say it was actually possible, though difficult, to make space mods in it.
As for the rest, you sound like quite the Spencerian, and I'm afraid I have to completely disagree. The individual, the great hero is the entire focus of the whole show. It's Legend of the Galactic Heroes. The entire show is about how the course of history can be altered by the action or inaction, the life or death of a single individual. Of course those individuals are affected by their circumstances, but it doesn't change the fact that without them history would take a very different path. Heck, I'm not even saying it's a correct view of history - mainstream historians have rejected the theory for over a century after all - but it's definitely the view taken by the show.
If you just want to play Stellaris with LoGH ships and leaderheads and namelists and things, that can be done in the base game already. A little modeling, a wiki search for names, and you're good to go. If you really want to make a mod for it, you need to ask what the main theme is, what makes LoGH different from any other Space Opera out there. Just like how Star Trek's central theme is exploration and discovery of the unknown, or Star Wars is the classic fairytale struggle of good vs evil in a space opera setting, the primary theme of LoGH is the heroic, the impact that individual men can have on the course of history. And any mod that wants to be even halfway decent is going to have to represent that somehow, or it simply isn't LoGH.
As for how this could work out in Stellaris? Greatly expanded leader mechanics and events. Especially events. A full pseudo-CKII system is definitely way too far I agree, but expanded leader traits, greater events and event chains, maybe some sort of opinion system (via factions?) between leaders to be used for triggering events even. I need to learn a lot more about how leaders and other things (sectors, factions, nations, etc) work behind the scenes before any real planning could be done, but I can guarantee leaders are where a LoGH mod is going to be at.
As for the rest, you sound like quite the Spencerian, and I'm afraid I have to completely disagree. The individual, the great hero is the entire focus of the whole show. It's Legend of the Galactic Heroes. The entire show is about how the course of history can be altered by the action or inaction, the life or death of a single individual. Of course those individuals are affected by their circumstances, but it doesn't change the fact that without them history would take a very different path. Heck, I'm not even saying it's a correct view of history - mainstream historians have rejected the theory for over a century after all - but it's definitely the view taken by the show.
If you just want to play Stellaris with LoGH ships and leaderheads and namelists and things, that can be done in the base game already. A little modeling, a wiki search for names, and you're good to go. If you really want to make a mod for it, you need to ask what the main theme is, what makes LoGH different from any other Space Opera out there. Just like how Star Trek's central theme is exploration and discovery of the unknown, or Star Wars is the classic fairytale struggle of good vs evil in a space opera setting, the primary theme of LoGH is the heroic, the impact that individual men can have on the course of history. And any mod that wants to be even halfway decent is going to have to represent that somehow, or it simply isn't LoGH.
As for how this could work out in Stellaris? Greatly expanded leader mechanics and events. Especially events. A full pseudo-CKII system is definitely way too far I agree, but expanded leader traits, greater events and event chains, maybe some sort of opinion system (via factions?) between leaders to be used for triggering events even. I need to learn a lot more about how leaders and other things (sectors, factions, nations, etc) work behind the scenes before any real planning could be done, but I can guarantee leaders are where a LoGH mod is going to be at.
WISE FWOM YOUW GWAVE!
I've actually been penciling out some stuff for a LoGH mod, because Stellaris is a space grand strategy game where leaders are very important and so it's my duty.
My first concern: Research and exploration. It's essentially a non-element in my plan. The main series of LoGH isn't set during a time of exploration, and technology during the show seems fairly static. Though certain feats of engineering do have major impacts, such as Iserlohn, Geiersburg, and the Artemis Necklace, it seems that the main reason why those aren't used more often is due to the sheer cost of building and maintaining those systems, rather than the technology not being available. The Alliance doesn't have any problems with the upkeep of Iserlohn once it's captured, for example.
Second concern: scale and general structure. The show has tremendous fleet engagements, where ships numbering in the tens of thousands clash, resulting in six and seven-figure casualty numbers. Furthermore, fleets are extremely mobile. FTL-wise, I'd lock everyone into hyperlane (this will also allow the chokes at Iserlohn and Phezzan), but speed is tricky. In Episode 32, War Without Weapons, Yang's trip from Heinessen to Iserlohn takes a month, so that's probably what we'll have to use for scale.
The real issue here is the number of planets and star systems. While the overall structure of the galaxy is charted pretty well, this can't be the only part of the galaxy just as a measure of practicality. LOGH's large fleet enagagements have tens of thousands of battleships duking it out. While this can't be replicated ingame for practicality's sake (even if you could fit that many ships onscreen, even the sickest of rigs would chug like a frat boy under a leaking keg), fleets will still have to be pretty damn big compared to your average Stellaris fleet. We'll need each of those starzones on that galaxy map to consist of multiple systems, with only one entry point to each "connection" down the line. The starzones in the Corridors, however, will consist of a single system each, to preserve the chokepoint. This will allow for supporting larger fleets, forcing sectors to exist (and thus allowing for things like the El Facil Revolutionary Republic to fit with the game). The actual scale of the starzones will be scaled to the size of the fleets we want.
Third concern: Phezzan. Phezzan doesn't work in Stellaris. They hold soft power, owning a significant portion of the Alliance economy (including a tremendous amount of the government's debt) and having thoroughly infiltrated both the Alliance and Empire espionage-wise. There's no good way to represent this power mechanically. It'd have to be shown through events.
Fourth concern: Gameplay. I'd rather make this a mod that showcases the story rather than just making a LoGH-themed coat of paint for Stellaris, so the mod will have to be almost wholly event-driven, to the level of Kaiserreich. Nothing else would work. Fortunately, Stellaris has some tremendous scripting potential. As for writing the event chains? It'll take a lot of work. A hell of a lot of work. My plan is to start with the canon story, and slowly branch off in alpha updates until we have the main story and some reasonably common alt-histories (alt-futures?) that can play out to the end date just as effectively.
Fifth concern: Spelling. No, really! The spelling of some of the translated names seems a bit inconsistent. The closest thing we have to a canon source is the English version of the novels, so I'm going to use the spellings in there (even if it means I should be using Fezzan rather than Phezzan).
Some other, idle musings: The Empire is feudal and not well-developed, compared to the Alliance which has a much more centralized system of government and more highly developed worlds. I'm thinking the Alliance's form of government should give it more core worlds, and its worlds should start with far more buildings built, while the Empire starts with relatively few developed planets and many sectors, but more planets overall. That seems to mirror the situation in the show. It'll mean the Empire is more powerful overall, but isn't able to bring a lot of its potential to bear due to corruption, fighting with the nobility (sectors), and just having a really shitty economy, while the Alliance is less powerful on paper but can bring its limited resources to bear more effectively. Of course, if the Alliance doesn't make some changes, its economy is on the verge of collapse near the start of the story already. And some upstarts in the Empire might crash-develop quite a bit if they get power.
Ideology will play a major role. I wish characters had ideologies, and not just pops. Ah well.
There's probably a bunch of stuff I'm not thinking of right now, so I'll be back to post that if it comes to mind.
I've actually been penciling out some stuff for a LoGH mod, because Stellaris is a space grand strategy game where leaders are very important and so it's my duty.
My first concern: Research and exploration. It's essentially a non-element in my plan. The main series of LoGH isn't set during a time of exploration, and technology during the show seems fairly static. Though certain feats of engineering do have major impacts, such as Iserlohn, Geiersburg, and the Artemis Necklace, it seems that the main reason why those aren't used more often is due to the sheer cost of building and maintaining those systems, rather than the technology not being available. The Alliance doesn't have any problems with the upkeep of Iserlohn once it's captured, for example.
Second concern: scale and general structure. The show has tremendous fleet engagements, where ships numbering in the tens of thousands clash, resulting in six and seven-figure casualty numbers. Furthermore, fleets are extremely mobile. FTL-wise, I'd lock everyone into hyperlane (this will also allow the chokes at Iserlohn and Phezzan), but speed is tricky. In Episode 32, War Without Weapons, Yang's trip from Heinessen to Iserlohn takes a month, so that's probably what we'll have to use for scale.
The real issue here is the number of planets and star systems. While the overall structure of the galaxy is charted pretty well, this can't be the only part of the galaxy just as a measure of practicality. LOGH's large fleet enagagements have tens of thousands of battleships duking it out. While this can't be replicated ingame for practicality's sake (even if you could fit that many ships onscreen, even the sickest of rigs would chug like a frat boy under a leaking keg), fleets will still have to be pretty damn big compared to your average Stellaris fleet. We'll need each of those starzones on that galaxy map to consist of multiple systems, with only one entry point to each "connection" down the line. The starzones in the Corridors, however, will consist of a single system each, to preserve the chokepoint. This will allow for supporting larger fleets, forcing sectors to exist (and thus allowing for things like the El Facil Revolutionary Republic to fit with the game). The actual scale of the starzones will be scaled to the size of the fleets we want.
Third concern: Phezzan. Phezzan doesn't work in Stellaris. They hold soft power, owning a significant portion of the Alliance economy (including a tremendous amount of the government's debt) and having thoroughly infiltrated both the Alliance and Empire espionage-wise. There's no good way to represent this power mechanically. It'd have to be shown through events.
Fourth concern: Gameplay. I'd rather make this a mod that showcases the story rather than just making a LoGH-themed coat of paint for Stellaris, so the mod will have to be almost wholly event-driven, to the level of Kaiserreich. Nothing else would work. Fortunately, Stellaris has some tremendous scripting potential. As for writing the event chains? It'll take a lot of work. A hell of a lot of work. My plan is to start with the canon story, and slowly branch off in alpha updates until we have the main story and some reasonably common alt-histories (alt-futures?) that can play out to the end date just as effectively.
Fifth concern: Spelling. No, really! The spelling of some of the translated names seems a bit inconsistent. The closest thing we have to a canon source is the English version of the novels, so I'm going to use the spellings in there (even if it means I should be using Fezzan rather than Phezzan).
Some other, idle musings: The Empire is feudal and not well-developed, compared to the Alliance which has a much more centralized system of government and more highly developed worlds. I'm thinking the Alliance's form of government should give it more core worlds, and its worlds should start with far more buildings built, while the Empire starts with relatively few developed planets and many sectors, but more planets overall. That seems to mirror the situation in the show. It'll mean the Empire is more powerful overall, but isn't able to bring a lot of its potential to bear due to corruption, fighting with the nobility (sectors), and just having a really shitty economy, while the Alliance is less powerful on paper but can bring its limited resources to bear more effectively. Of course, if the Alliance doesn't make some changes, its economy is on the verge of collapse near the start of the story already. And some upstarts in the Empire might crash-develop quite a bit if they get power.
Ideology will play a major role. I wish characters had ideologies, and not just pops. Ah well.
There's probably a bunch of stuff I'm not thinking of right now, so I'll be back to post that if it comes to mind.
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