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Hopefully. It's the one-year anniversary of the game (in fact, the thirteen month mark, but evidently the dev team wants us to think of it as just a year), and the issue is in exactly the same place it was at launch, after more-or-less recovering from a backslide halfway through. I can understand how Covid slowed things down, but with reports of gender discrimination and general mistreatment coming out of the company, with the unions saying the complaints are valid, I can't help but think there's a lot of deeper problems at Paradox, and wonder if the low priority they've evidently been giving this issue is a symptom.

I hope they can get this sorted out for the benefit of everyone who's still playing, but it's probably too late for me -- they've lost me as a customer unless I hear of major reforms in the company and the unions give them the all clear.
Please stop trying to blame your dissatisfaction with our release timing of one feature on theory crafting utter nonsense to do with our work environment, its honestly quite insulting to try and tie these unrelated things together, we're the ones who are actually here so you'd think if you care that much about our work environment you'd be a bit compassionate to our workers.

A lot of our team is in our unions including multiple of our actual union representatives. Trying to tie this together belittles their hard work of doing these surveys and tries to paint our team as being anti-LBGT which couldn't be further from the truth of what we feel especially given that our team has plenty of LGBT+ people in it.

Like we've said already in this thread the feature will be released in 1.5 it is purely a matter of time. And as I explained before we cannot just excise certain features and try to retroactively make unplanned patches with them spliced in without adding further difficulty to the team.

You are free to not be happy with the time a release takes and even not play the game again by the time it does come out. But belittling the efforts of our union reps or trying to snidely make accusations about our team (again I might add as you've done this plenty) is not something we are going to sit here and accept.

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And to comments like this you're just outing yourself to get moderators infracting you for such intolerant and un-inclusive behaviour, don't try to speak for us especially with such incorrect statements that go counter to what we've already said numerous times are our views.
 
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Besides, it's not even the new content the people in the thread are asking for. Just the removal of hard-coded restriction, which already was not in CK2 and it worked.
Yes and no. In its core this thread asks for the ability to freely mod in same-sex marriages into the game. Leaving all the related issues to the modders themselves, and the only thing is to have this feature bug-free and reliable.
But some have also said, that until the game includes (without mods) some sort of "official" version of same-sex marriage, they won't be satisfied. This latter however means a lot more than just removing a hard-coded restriction (and making sure it works as intended), and needs design as well as scripting. I for one am very much against this sentiment on the grounds of meaning more work for the devs and also making modders less relevant. (I would rather see a dozen mods featuring same-sex marriage, than only one PDX-developed one.)
 
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A lot of our team is in our unions including multiple of our actual union representatives. Trying to tie this together belittles their hard work of doing these surveys and tries to paint our team as being anti-LBGT which couldn't be further from the truth of what we feel especially given that our team has plenty of LGBT+ people in it.

Having LGBTQ+ people in a team, sadly doesn't mean the team is inclusive and is in itself not an argument. And I do see a disconnect between Paradox promise of inclusivity and everything that has been happening since the launch of CK3 in regards to same-sex marriage. And the fact that the only fix so far is to not even include this in the game vanilla but let modders take charge once again, doesn't show a lot of support for the LGBTQ+ community. Inclusivity is not a luxury, it is a necessity. And we need companies like Paradox to step up and do their parts.

Yes and no. In its core this thread asks for the ability to freely mod in same-sex marriages into the game. Leaving all the related issues to the modders themselves, and the only thing is to have this feature bug-free and reliable.
But some have also said, that until the game includes (without mods) some sort of "official" version of same-sex marriage, they won't be satisfied. This latter however means a lot more than just removing a hard-coded restriction (and making sure it works as intended), and needs design as well as scripting. I for one am very much against this sentiment on the grounds of meaning more work for the devs and also making modders less relevant. (I would rather see a dozen mods featuring same-sex marriage, than only one PDX-developed one.)

I am one of those wanting this to be vanilla in the game, and I disagree with you that it would make modders less relevant. Quite the opposite, I think it would give modders even more open possibilities. And what we are talking about is about inclusivity. The way the game is at the moment is like half inclusive. It doesn't work. You can be inclusive or you aren't. It's like Paradox is making an attempt at being inclusive but isn't fulfilling through its promise of inclusivity, and this is why same-sex marriage should be added in the game vanilla, not just the removal of the hard-coded restriction. Yes, it means more work, but this is something that cannot be quantified, it simply needs to get done whatever the cost, whatever the time. Paradox made a promise to its LGBTQ+ players, they need to fulfill it.
 
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There's been some strident voices in this thread, and I think it's important to note that they're not necessarily representative of everyone else who's been supportive of / waiting for this feature.

Real change happens by way of incremental positive steps; it rarely happens because someone digs their heels in and refuses to accept anything short of perfection. It's particularly unlikely to happen in an environment of attacks and allegations.

I really appreciate the devs' time and focus on this, and I appreciate the engagement with the community. Other studios could just as easily have ignored us completely. Thank you.
 
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Yes it's an rpg but that has no bearing on what I said. The base game is incomplete. It is not a relationship simulator it is a medieval ruler simulator.
Again - no problem with having this option. But if it is hard coded and takes time - not a priority. If we were playing a dating game, etc. then of course my comments would not apply.
The lack of Constantinople is a greater loss than being unable to change the portrait image of a sex partner.
CK3 is a relationship simulator since players are playing a character as a member of each dynasty. And each characters have to find relationships(not just for a rommantic relationship) with other characters to build stronger dynasty and gain score. That's the goal of this game. EU4 is cleary not relationship simulator. This is also primarily historical sandbox game as you said. Same sex marriage has existed in history but on the other hand byzantin empire restablishing united roman empire has not. I mean, you are prioritizing pure fantasy over real history. Isn't it odd to desperately finding 'legit point' to espress your discomfort on LGBT rights and being wrong at the same time?
 
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Please stop trying to blame your dissatisfaction with our release timing of one feature on theory crafting utter nonsense to do with our work environment, its honestly quite insulting to try and tie these unrelated things together, we're the ones who are actually here so you'd think if you care that much about our work environment you'd be a bit compassionate to our workers.

A lot of our team is in our unions including multiple of our actual union representatives. Trying to tie this together belittles their hard work of doing these surveys and tries to paint our team as being anti-LBGT which couldn't be further from the truth of what we feel especially given that our team has plenty of LGBT+ people in it.

You are free to not be happy with the time a release takes and even not play the game again by the time it does come out. But belittling the efforts of our union reps or trying to snidely make accusations about our team (again I might add as you've done this plenty) is not something we are going to sit here and accept.

I'm seeing this kind of escalating the situation by using strawman fallacy on this forum over and over. He didn't say that all of your team are homophobic nor belittled anyone. I sincerely thank you for hard works on new patch and communicating with us(I also loved your dev diaries) but I want to ask you this : Are you trying to communicate with us as an employee of this company or just another fellow user of this forum? Why are you threatening people? Is this a Paradox's official position and threatening consumer is a communication policy?
 
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CK3 is a relationship simulator since players are playing a character as a member of each dynasty. And each characters have to find relationships(not just for a rommantic relationship) with other characters to build stronger dynasty and gain score. That's the goal of this game. EU4 is cleary not relationship simulator. This is also primarily historical sandbox game as you said. Same sex marriage has existed in history but on the other hand byzantin empire restablishing united roman empire has not. I mean, you are prioritizing pure fantasy over real history. Isn't it odd to desperately finding 'legit point' to espress your discomfort on LGBT rights and being wrong at the same time?
Out of curiosity, can you give me some examples of same-sex marriage from the timespan of the game? How were the dynastic aspects handled in those (naming, inheritance, alliances)? Were there any general rules or assumptions? Or every situation was different, and handled in wills (as it was common at the time in the nobility)?
 
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Real change happens by way of incremental positive steps; it rarely happens because someone digs their heels in and refuses to accept anything short of perfection. It's particularly unlikely to happen in an environment of attacks and allegations.

Ask them for a little and you'll definitely get nothing. Demand a lot and you might get something. Inverse of 'give an inch and they'll take a mile'.

The story of social progress is one of bold people demanding radical, revolutionary changes and getting a modicum of what they demanded to shut them up, not one of people meekly asking if they might please have a little dignity and the people withholding it politely assenting.
 
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Ask them for a little and you'll definitely get nothing. Demand a lot and you might get something. Inverse of 'give an inch and they'll take a mile'.

The story of social progress is one of bold people demanding radical, revolutionary changes and getting a modicum of what they demanded to shut them up, not one of people meekly asking if they might please have a little dignity and the people withholding it politely assenting.

This is a satisfying and often repeated story (plays well at the GLAAD awards), but it's utterly wrong. It wasn't the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence who made same-sex marriage happen in the United States, it was people like Andrew Sullivan out-arguing his fellow conservatives on C-Span for two decades.

The gay movement won by winning hearts and minds with patience, humanity, and compassion, and the reason it's stalling hard these days is precisely because it's far easier to be incensed and make utopian demands than it is to put in hard, often unsatisfying work making real change happen. We have the most successful social movement since civil rights behind us, and we insist on throwing away the lessons it teaches us. Taking melodramatically uncompromising stances with a well-meaning Swedish video game developer on the Internet may feel good, but it's a highway to achieving precisely nothing in the long run.

I'm not expecting the louder voices to agree with me here, but I want the devs to know the louder voices aren't speaking for everyone. Good faith efforts at inclusion are a good thing, and I will always appreciate those that make them, however imperfectly.
 
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Yes and no. In its core this thread asks for the ability to freely mod in same-sex marriages into the game. Leaving all the related issues to the modders themselves, and the only thing is to have this feature bug-free and reliable.
But some have also said, that until the game includes (without mods) some sort of "official" version of same-sex marriage, they won't be satisfied. This latter however means a lot more than just removing a hard-coded restriction (and making sure it works as intended), and needs design as well as scripting. I for one am very much against this sentiment on the grounds of meaning more work for the devs and also making modders less relevant. (I would rather see a dozen mods featuring same-sex marriage, than only one PDX-developed one.)
This thread is incredible. I guess this is what PDS gets for trying so hard to be inclusive at the expense of plausible alternative history simulation. Not even the option to actually make most people in a medieval world more interested in their own sex is enough evidence for this crowd to suggest that the developers want to please everyone's wildest ahistorical fantasies. Nope, they're all still bigots who hard block equal rights.
 
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The gay movement won by winning hearts and minds with patience, humanity, and compassion, and the reason it's stalling hard these days is precisely because it's far easier to be incensed and make utopian demands than it is to put in hard, often unsatisfying work making real change happen. We have the most successful social movement since civil rights behind us, and we insist on throwing away the lessons it teaches us. Taking melodramatically uncompromising stances with a well-meaning Swedish video game developer on the Internet may feel good, but it's a highway to achieving precisely nothing in the long run.

I think you are forgetting that any gains made in the US can be challenged, that in some part of the world gay rights are not going forward but backward, or even that in some places even being gay is still not a right but a crime.

And while I like your romanticisation of the gay movement, may I remind that Pride itself was born from demonstrations and protests, not always peaceful.

But that aside, we aren't asking Paradox to change the world, we are simply asking them to make good on their promise of inclusivity and to be the ally to the LGBTQ+ community that they say they are. Walk the talk, I think it is a fair request.
 
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I think you are forgetting that any gains made in the US can be challenged, that in some part of the world gay rights are not going forward but backward, or even that in some places even being gay is still not a right but a crime.

And while I like your romanticisation of the gay movement, may I remind that Pride itself was born from demonstrations and protests, not always peaceful.

I don't think I'm forgetting this at all. I would bet a lot more on the success of conciliatory reformers working on winning over hearts / minds / institutions in those countries than I would on "not always peaceful" demonstrations and protests. The latter may be gratifying, but only the former is effective. Once the reformers prevail, of course, all credit will be taken by the protesters, but such is the thankless nature of hard work for real change.

But that aside, we aren't asking Paradox to change the world, we are simply asking them to make good on their promise of inclusivity and to be the ally to the LGBTQ+ community that they say they are. Walk the talk, I think it is a fair request.

The game is already possibly the most inclusive major studio game ever made (there's a whole customisable sexuality system!), so I think it's silly to claim Paradox hasn't delivered handsomely. I still want moddable gay marriage, and I've been pretty open about that. I'm grateful Paradox has recognised its absence as a problem and agreed to fix it, and I see no possible benefit from raging melodramatically at someone who's already agreed to help.
 
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Anyone claiming that civil rights in the United States wasn't achieved through violence is ignoring history, which makes their claims that they want accurate historical gameplay, frankly, very strange to me.

EVERY civil rights movement has involved violent, radical pushback to oppression. The first Pride just wasn't "not all peaceful". Pride began in riots, and only became "family friendly" and more of a festival once corporations realized they could make money off of it.

Pushing for small incremental changes has literally never helped any oppressed group get what they want.
 
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Anyone claiming that civil rights in the United States wasn't achieved through violence is ignoring history, which makes their claims that they want accurate historical gameplay, frankly, very strange to me.

EVERY civil rights movement has involved violent, radical pushback to oppression. The first Pride just wasn't "not all peaceful". Pride began in riots, and only became "family friendly" and more of a festival once corporations realized they could make money off of it.

Pushing for small incremental changes has literally never helped any oppressed group get what they want.

I can only assume you're referring to me. I'm unsure where I said I want accurate historical gameplay. I want to mod in tons of medieval gay marriage. Not all that historical (though arguably more so than many people realise)!

You're making the unfounded (if popular) assumption that Pride actually led to civil rights. It's an understandable assumption to make, when bombarded with that narrative today. It's not what happened though. The radical stage of a civil rights movement is useful for consolidation (in the case of Pride: this is who we are, and if you're same-sex attracted you're one of us), but it's entirely unproductive with respect to actually winning civil rights from the majority. Those rights were won by long quiet years of effort and good faith compromise. Pride mostly just engendered hostility (and this unfortunately coincided with a time when we most needed support - the 80s Plague).

I can see you are very confident in your own account of history, but you may find it "very strange" to learn that when same-sex marriage was first proposed in the late 80s and early 90s, strident gay organisations were deeply and universally opposed to it. Now, those same organisations take credit for it. Me, I'm just happy we have it. And I want to keep fighting for it where we don't, whether that be <certain countries> or CK3. :)

I'm happy to leave the discussion at this though. I can see we're not going to see eye to eye, and that's OK. We're after the same thing, and there's room for a multiplicity of views.
 
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I don't think I'm forgetting this at all. I would bet a lot more on the success of conciliatory reformers working on winning over hearts / minds / institutions in those countries than I would on "not always peaceful" demonstrations and protests.

I can easily agree with you, but based on my own experience, I'm one of the privilege ones living in a democratic and fairly progressive country where indeed gay rights has evolved fairly peacefully. We even had a state leader in the 70s who said in regards to gay rights that the state has no business in people's bedroom. And to my knowledge we only had a few major incidents back in the 70s and 80s and it was due to police raids to which they apologized for a few years ago. But that is something that was very similar in many more liberal and democratic countries around the same period of time.

But again, I'm one of the lucky ones, so its not my place to judge how others do it in other countries, and we have to keep in mind that even in a country like mine it took a few decades to go from decriminalization of homosexuality to the legalization of gay marriage.

Pride mostly just engendered hostility (and this unfortunately coincided with a time when we most needed support - the 80s Plague).

Pride was in response to hostility, to protest against police. It started as a peaceful movement that had its watershed moment that indeed sadly escalated events. Even today, some believe that Pride has become too mellow, too corporate, that it forgot its roots of protest. Like at the New York world pride in 2019 there was Pride and there was what they called a reclaim pride to protest and keep up the legacy of Stonewall. Personally, I think they have some fair points, but I still prefer to see inclusion weaved into Pride, as a show of progress and also because I strongly believe we do need corporations and even the police to participate, we need them as ally and they themselves need to represent their LGBTQ2S+ employees. In any case, all this is out of the scope of this thread, so I will also leave this side of the discussion at that.

The game is already possibly the most inclusive major studio game ever made (there's a whole customisable sexuality system!), so I think it's silly to claim Paradox hasn't delivered handsomely. I still want moddable gay marriage, and I've been pretty open about that. I'm grateful Paradox has recognised its absence as a problem and agreed to fix it, and I see no possible benefit from raging melodramatically at someone who's already agreed to help.

Again, I agree with you, but that isn't the point. Heck before buying the game I even fully knew we wouldn't be able to have same-sex marriage in the base game, because they said so on social media and that was ok for me because I knew someone smarter than me would mod it. The issue is what happened next after the game was launched and then the game itself. I won't rehash the series of events that happened since the game has launched, but my thoughts has involved because of those from being alright with same-sex marriage only as modded to requiring it in the vanilla game. And the game itself has much more role-play element and fantasy than CK2, making the historical argument moot.

Yes Paradox agreed to help, but only for modding purposes. It is a letdown and a major disappointment from a company that as you say is one of the most inclusive studio in the industry, and that makes the hurt even more painful. As a faithful Paradox customers for now 10 years, I personally feel betrayed, but I'm still here because I care about the company, I care about their games and I care about the LGBTQ+ community and I am hoping that Paradox will listen and make it same-sex marriage happens in the base game because it is the right thing to do.
 
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Reading the discussion above I find myself partially agreeing with both viewpoints. I don't see why only one strategy should be considered valid -- they are equally useful at certain places in certain times. I am Russian, and not only we have no legalized same-sex marriage -- we have a law that criminalizes "gay propaganda", which can essentially mean saying/showing anything positive or supportive about homosexuality in public. One might think "surely, in a dire situation like this only extreme methods can be used to achieve progress". However, a big issue is in the older generation generally feeling threatened that progressive changes might endanger their traditional ways of life. Violent radical methods, unfortunately, would only feed their fear and distrust. But the gradual spreading of awareness might push some to shift their opinions in the right direction. Of course there are always gonna be some rigid people/organizations unwilling to accept things, and of course sometimes action and big demands are necessary to make a point. But the background work helps to make the transition smoother when the time comes. Relying only on one strategy, be it desperate measures or careful threading, makes one principled-looking but also vulnerable and unable to adapt.
At the end of the day, we can be happy that it's easier to get a wanted feature in a media product than it is in a country/society, eh?
 
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The game is already possibly the most inclusive major studio game ever made (there's a whole customisable sexuality system!), so I think it's silly to claim Paradox hasn't delivered handsomely. I still want moddable gay marriage, and I've been pretty open about that. I'm grateful Paradox has recognised its absence as a problem and agreed to fix it, and I see no possible benefit from raging melodramatically at someone who's already agreed to help.
English is not my first language but I'm understanding that you put ck3 as the most inclusive game out there?
I hope you mean it as the most inclusive game of paradox, because otherwise it can't be more false.

This sexuality system to me seems to be something made just to gain "inclusivity" points because it is totally useless that doesn't change anything.
The only thing I have found use for it is for "hooks" that become useless once you make your religion accept homosexuality.
once even in one of my games my heiress was a lesbian, and when I played with her I noticed that she had 3 lovers and they were all men, a complete joke.

a lot could have been done with this system, but in the end I can only see that it ended up being a fancy icon.

and that we should not be "melodramatic" with paradox I dont see it that way, if people had not complained they would not have done anything, and what they are doing is nothing for someone who claims to be inclusive, because basically they will remove restrictions that they put themselves and leave the rest of the work to the modders.

for me ck2 is more inclusive because at least there I can download a mod as there are no restrictions and have gay marriage as a mechanic, or even without mods I remember there was a bug where you forced a gay couple to get married.

considering all the crazy things that can be done in ck3 i don't see why they themselves can't put gay marriage in the game.
 
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...can't be more false...
...totally useless..
...a complete joke..
...what they are doing is nothing...

If you were a Paradox programmer looking at a constant stream of this kind of hyperbolic invective, how inspired would you feel to work extra to give this person something they are asking for?

The devs are actual flesh and blood human beings, with mortgages and birthdays and all sorts of human things. Humans respond to incentives.

The CK3 team are clearly aiming for inclusion, and it would be much more constructive if the community could guide them with respect to how best to achieve that, rather than spitting acid on them every time they don't get things exactly right (and given how many views there are on this, this would effectively be pretty much every time they try anything).

I'm not asking anyone to settle for less, just be mindful of how you communicate with, and what kinds of incentives and disincentives you create in, the people you're asking for help. It will make you more effective. If you smash every birthday gift you get because it's not the moon itself, your friends will very quickly learn to stop trying to bring you gifts.
 
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If you were a Paradox programmer looking at a constant stream of this kind of hyperbolic invective, how inspired would you feel to work extra to give this person something they are asking for?

The devs are actual flesh and blood human beings, with mortgages and birthdays and all sorts of human things. Humans respond to incentives.

The CK3 team are clearly aiming for inclusion, and it would be much more constructive if the community could guide them with respect to how best to achieve that, rather than spitting acid on them every time they don't get things exactly right (and given how many views there are on this, this would effectively be pretty much every time they try anything).

I'm not asking anyone to settle for less, just be mindful of how you communicate with, and what kinds of incentives and disincentives you create in, the people you're asking for help. It will make you more effective. If you smash every birthday gift you get because it's not the moon itself, your friends will very quickly learn to stop trying to bring you gifts.
You don't seem to have read everything I posted since you even took out a quote addressed to you as if it was for them, but here I'll tell you again why I said those words.

the first one was for you, as I said I understood that you said that ck3 is the most inclusive game out there, which for me is false, there are many more "inclusive" games from big companies.

in the second, tell me what other uses does this system have other than hooks?, even ck2 had more use with the fertilization decrease.

in the third, for me is a complete joke, that homosexual characters have relationships of lovers with characters of different sex, I don't know about you but I see it as a mockery of homosexuality and a sign that this system is not well done.

in the last quote It looks like you half-assed it to make it worse than it was, but as I said the only thing they are going to do is remove a restriction that they put in the first place and don't do anything else, I'm definitely not going to praise them for that and to me that doesn't seem like the worthy work of a company that claims to be inclusive.

"The CK3 team are clearly aiming for inclusion" good for you if you see it that way, for me actions speak louder than words, and a sexuality system that for me is poorly made and all the restrictions they placed that didn't allow mods to be created tells me otherwise. in the game you can literally create an incestuous cannibalistic nudist empire, something completely ridiculous, but allowing characters of the same sex to marry, it seems like it is too much for them. to me these are not the right actions for a company that claims to be inclusive of lgbt people.
 
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