Legalize Gay Modding!

[GenyaArikado]

I know this is an extremely controversial... yet so brave idea:

Dynastic game overs are way overrated.

The fun derived from not getting to play anymore is not worth the limitations it keeps putting on the game. The risks of making the game too easy with adoptions is waaay overrated. So is having to play as your dynastic heir rather than just switching dynasties on death.

The possibilities without it are huge! Playable theocracies, non-matrilenial playable women, eunuchs and dead ends, holy orders, and lastly us gays.

People cry for realism but only when it suits the male-centric view. If it involves women then "it ruins the core of the game". Eleanor of Aquitaine didnt "lose" cuz her house name died, so i think that continuing as another member of the dynasty (the current model) and "dynastic switch" when playing female should be a choice

As a gay man, I also support gay marr-iage reformation (i get a "cant post cuz spam when i write the word without separation). People complaining about the game historically accurate apparently missed the "Player can make incestuous-nudist-sacred lies-cannibal the tennets of the main religion of the whole world" thing)

If they care so much about storytelling, then let people be able to tell what they want in their games, giving more options doesn't remove yours (specially if they're stuff only the player can do)

 

[InkTide]

If you can't conquer the known world with a fanatical religion of cannibalistic, lie-worshipping human sacrifice practitioners with a holy army commanded by naked gay men who are somehow all blood related to each other in at least 3 different ways, can you really call it Crusader Kings?

"Historical accuracy" is nothing more than the blank state of the canvas that your game paints its events onto the moment you hit unpause for the first time, and even then only if you never change the settings. If preserving it was the point, there wouldn't be a game at all.

A path for a religion in Europe to allow or even actively venerate same-sex [Paradox flagged this word as spam] is a lot less 'non-historic' than the already existing ingame path for a religion of pathologically lying nudist cannibals to eradicate Catholicism. It's the sort of thing that really should be in the base game, forget just the trivial step of not adding specific triggers in the game's hardcode to prevent even the modifications it would require.

I honestly don't believe for a second that gay [Paradox flagged this word as spam] broke the game. I've been messing around with Clausewitz for years - they did not design the [Paradox flagged this word as spam] system in a way that would destroy the game if two women or two men [Paradox flagged this word as spam]. They designed it in a way that any attempt at same-sex [Paradox flagged this word as spam] (and now concubinage) failed and gave a bespoke error, because it specifically checked the gender of the two characters alone.

The entire crux of this issue is down to Paradox being too lazy to add a doctrine/law check (they even already added the relevant religious doctrines - "same sex relationships" related doctrines - for it to check) to that hardcoded [Paradox flagged this word as spam] check. Inheritance is already defined by doctrine/law checks, and all they'd need to do for dynasties to work is to have children inherit the dynasty of the monarch (which I'm pretty sure is default behavior).

 

[InkTide]

Very interesting that your spam filter would flag the word "ɱąrriāgē" as spam on a thread about allowing the gay version of it, Paradox. Because the filter wouldn't let me post until I replaced the word with that little blurb in red up there.

 

[GenyaArikado]

I don't think they forgot. I think they didn't want to deal with the amazing russian/chinese/islam policies regarding gay stuff.

From the "Person who understands a company is made to make money" side, i understand

From the "lgbtq+ human who has to struggle with an improving but still generally homophobic world" side, i burn in rage so i understand rants

 

[Midnighter]

Throwing in adoption to the base game without much thought about it would kill the game. If one can adopt at any point without restrictions, then what purpose a dynasty/family has? "I don't like my heir. Let's adopt sb better."

You could restrict adoption, but there is a lot of things to consider. The player shouldn't be able to abuse the AI, their choices should be meaningful and have consequences; at the same time the requirements should not be a burden, or overtly complicated. This is why I say it would take development time. After you know how things should work, it's relatively fast and easy to put together.

Another thing to consider is how it would impact new gamers. If one fires up CK3, sets the hypothetical same-sex marriage gamerule to allow it, they should be able to figure out inheritance, and what a dynasty means. They shouldn't get the impression that adoption is the solution to inheritance (it should be a solution not the solution).

1) In east asian history, adopting child of relatives from same clan was common practice to carry on the main family line.
2) I don't think we need any complicated or special restriction of adoption. Modders can simply allow adoption just for the married same sex couple.
3) Also they can create an event for the married same sex couple to adopt orphan if they dont have any relatives, with some special trait like 'legitimized bastard'.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Very interesting that your spam filter would flag the word "ɱąrriāgē" as spam on a thread about allowing the gay version of it, Paradox. Because the filter wouldn't let me post until I replaced the word with that little blurb in red up there.

No idea this was a thing. But "marriage" often falls in "black magic"-style adbot posts. Bringing it up with the admins.

Update: Admins bringing it up with the folks who run the software side of things.

 

[Belph]

I don't think they forgot. I think they didn't want to deal with the amazing russian/chinese/islam policies regarding gay stuff.

From the "Person who understands a company is made to make money" side, i understand

From the "lgbtq+ human who has to struggle with an improving but still generally homophobic world" side, i burn in rage so i understand rants

Lots of productive discussion can be had about this topic but "the evil countries are banning the gays" is not that.

 

[Zeirii]

Lots of productive discussion can be had about this topic but "the evil countries are banning the gays" is not that.

Maybe not, but can we have any certainties? The facts are against them in my opinion, because despite the effort they made in CK3 to bring more inclusivity, it remains that same-sex marriage is not included in the base game, and the modding fiasco would have been a great opportunity for them to rectify this but they chose instead to officially support same-sex marriage mods. While this is nice, it is not an apology for the LGBTQ+ community and neither a show of support.

 

[neutrondecay]

Maybe not, but can we have any certainties? The facts are against them in my opinion, because despite the effort they made in CK3 to bring more inclusivity, it remains that same-sex marriage is not included in the base game, and the modding fiasco would have been a great opportunity for them to rectify this but they chose instead to officially support same-sex marriage mods. While this is nice, it is not an apology for the LGBTQ+ community and neither a show of support.

No, seriously. A software company based in Sweden, whose games already allow for gay characters, is not going to shy away from same-sex marriage specifically, because of political pressure from outside the EU. Blaming other nations and faiths for this is ludicrous.

 

[CaptainCashew]

1) In east asian history, adopting child of relatives from same clan was common practice to carry on the main family line.
2) I don't think we need any complicated or special restriction of adoption. Modders can simply allow adoption just for the married same sex couple.
3) Also they can create an event for the married same sex couple to adopt orphan if they dont have any relatives, with some special trait like 'legitimized bastard'.

Gaius Octavius was posthumously adopted by his maternal great-uncle, a little known ruler by the name of Julius Caesar.

Adopting a dynastic blood-relative as your child and heir, in the case of a childless ruler, should absolutely be in the base game already. It certainly has a mountain of precedent in history.

 

[GenyaArikado]

Lots of productive discussion can be had about this topic but "the evil countries are banning the gays" is not that.

???

It's not a matter of them being evil governments or not (well, imo they are but that's OT). Companies refraining themselves from making content is a real thing. Riot Games (known for League of Legends) former developers have stated that they have severe issues making LGBTQ+ characters because of those countries. Also, the "list of banned games" includes plenty that get banned for "glorifying homosexuality". Those things do matter, believe it or not

PDX is a business, i don't think it's farfetched to think they take that in account. I'm stating what i think its the situation, however i'm not trying to "cancel" Paradox or anything like that.

In any case, i hope ultimately they properly add reformable gay marri-age in the game. I agree with the former poster, being able to mod it in it's not enough for me anymore

 

[Maxoverload91]

Absolutely this should be possible in the game - i'd love to also see an adoption mechanic get added.

 

[Belph]

It's not a matter of them being evil governments or not (well, imo they are but that's OT). Companies refraining themselves from making content is a real thing. Riot Games (known for League of Legends) former developers have stated that they have severe issues making LGBTQ+ characters because of those countries. Also, the "list of banned games" includes plenty that get banned for "glorifying homosexuality". Those things do matter, believe it or not

Sure, but CK3 already allows homosexuality. Trying to pin the decision not to include gay marriage on "China/Russia/Islam" is idiotic and counterproductive. Firstly, as stated previously, homosexuality is already implemented within the game. Secondly, if PDX felt this would damage the games distribution abroad they could simply... distribute an altered version abroad, as they have done previously with HOI4. Trying to blame this on the "bad countries" (because thats what is being done when you say "China/Russia/Islam" won't let this happen, at least from a western lens, which encompasses the majority of these forums) clouds the issue and removes responsibility from the people actually making the decisions. It is reductive, and only serves to create a scapegoat.

 

[GenyaArikado]

Sure, but CK3 already allows homosexuality. Trying to pin the decision not to include gay marriage on "China/Russia/Islam" is idiotic and counterproductive. Firstly, as stated previously, homosexuality is already implemented within the game. Secondly, if PDX felt this would damage the games distribution abroad they could simply... distribute an altered version abroad, as they have done previously with HOI4. Trying to blame this on the "bad countries" (because thats what is being done when you say "China/Russia/Islam" won't let this happen, at least from a western lens, which encompasses the majority of these forums) clouds the issue and removes responsibility from the people actually making the decisions. It is reductive, and only serves to create a scapegoat.

?????????

Yes homosexuality is in the game... and the only thing you can do with it it's imprison people for being sodomites

I'm not removing the responsability from PDX, i'm saying one of the possible motives IN MY OPINION basing myself in what i've seen in other videogame companies. I don't think this is scapegoating at all. Feel free to disagree

 

[halkszavu]

No, seriously. A software company based in Sweden, whose games already allow for gay characters, is not going to shy away from same-sex marriage specifically, because of political pressure from outside the EU. Blaming other nations and faiths for this is ludicrous.

I'm not sure why you phrase it like this, but there are countries inside EU, where same-sex relationships aren't accepted. Just look at Hungary (part of the EU since 2004), where same-sex marriage is unconstitutional, as well as adoption for people who live in same-sex relationships.
I think this kind of unawareness is also why the LGBT issue is so slowly moving.

 

[neutrondecay]

I'm not sure why you phrase it like this, but there are countries inside EU, where same-sex relationships aren't accepted. Just look at Hungary (part of the EU since 2004), where same-sex marriage is unconstitutional, as well as adoption for people who live in same-sex relationships.
I think this kind of unawareness is also why the LMBT issue is so slowly moving.

Sorry. 'Outside the EU' was a lazy shorthand on my part, based on the choice of named countries in the post I was responding to. The situation inside the EU is not as cheering as I implied, and that was a mistake. I'm painfully aware of the slowness of progress on this issue - I live in a country which has only fully legalised same-sex relations, equalised the age of consent, and enabled same-sex marriage, during my own lifetime and mostly during my adulthood. We're still a long way off on trans issues, and arguably getting worse again.

So I don't think that the lack of awareness is necessarily to blame for the slow progress, but it certainly doesn't help. I'm tired of wading through Wikipedia articles that give as much detail to individual states and counties of the USA as to entire nations and groups of nations elsewhere in the world.

Out of curiosity, what does the M in LMBT stand for? Around here, we usually use LGBT.

Thanks,

nd

 

[Koyraboro]

I know this is an extremely controversial... yet so brave idea:

Dynastic game overs are way overrated.

The fun derived from not getting to play anymore is not worth the limitations it keeps putting on the game. The risks of making the game too easy with adoptions is waaay overrated. So is having to play as your dynastic heir rather than just switching dynasties on death.

The possibilities without it are huge! Playable theocracies, non-matrilenial playable women, eunuchs and dead ends, holy orders, and lastly us gays.

Yeah but you're supposed to play from the POV of a Dynasty. I agree with you it has it limits but my biggest gripe i how to balance adoption in a historically plausible manner.

It really wasn't that common on most of the game map and the numerous successions crises show that people would not "adopt their way out" of a crisis.

Now I would love myself to see adoption added but I can't see how they would balance whilst keeping the Dynastic premise which, let's be frank, is not going anywhere

 

[vnth]

while personal i care a great deal about historical accuracy (not to say that any specific proposal here is accurate or not), i have to agree that the inclusion for really just about anything the players could think of, accurate or not, had already been justified by the base design, because anything can be explained by doctrine. if anything, it seems to me that pdx has misjudged what their players actually want. you made the game more sandbox and believed that cannibalism is one of the most demanded feature? it's like someone only read the game's subreddit and think that franchise is really just about the memes.

 

[Koyraboro]

Yeah early communication sounded almost memetic which well...they must have pro marketing so it works I guess

 

[Zeirii]

No, seriously. A software company based in Sweden, whose games already allow for gay characters, is not going to shy away from same-sex marriage specifically, because of political pressure from outside the EU. Blaming other nations and faiths for this is ludicrous.

I understand your point, but personally I'm very perplexed by this whole situation and hence why I have doubts. And I think it is fair to question PDX decisions and behavior on this issue. Between the decision to launch the game with no same-sex marriage possibilities (as doctrine, game rules, or anything else), the oversight of the modding issue with same-sex marriage, followed by the modding issue with same-sex concubinage, and now the decision they made to officially support mods for same-sex marriage and same-sex concubinage instead of implementing in the base game, all these falls short of showing true support to the LGBTQ community and in my opinion undermined the work and progress they made with inclusivity. PDX is an inclusive company, but by not delivering same-sex marriage in the base game there is an inconsistency in the support they provide to LGBTQ+