blackninja9939

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Hopefully. It's the one-year anniversary of the game (in fact, the thirteen month mark, but evidently the dev team wants us to think of it as just a year), and the issue is in exactly the same place it was at launch, after more-or-less recovering from a backslide halfway through. I can understand how Covid slowed things down, but with reports of gender discrimination and general mistreatment coming out of the company, with the unions saying the complaints are valid, I can't help but think there's a lot of deeper problems at Paradox, and wonder if the low priority they've evidently been giving this issue is a symptom.

I hope they can get this sorted out for the benefit of everyone who's still playing, but it's probably too late for me -- they've lost me as a customer unless I hear of major reforms in the company and the unions give them the all clear.
Please stop trying to blame your dissatisfaction with our release timing of one feature on theory crafting utter nonsense to do with our work environment, its honestly quite insulting to try and tie these unrelated things together, we're the ones who are actually here so you'd think if you care that much about our work environment you'd be a bit compassionate to our workers.

A lot of our team is in our unions including multiple of our actual union representatives. Trying to tie this together belittles their hard work of doing these surveys and tries to paint our team as being anti-LBGT which couldn't be further from the truth of what we feel especially given that our team has plenty of LGBT+ people in it.

Like we've said already in this thread the feature will be released in 1.5 it is purely a matter of time. And as I explained before we cannot just excise certain features and try to retroactively make unplanned patches with them spliced in without adding further difficulty to the team.

You are free to not be happy with the time a release takes and even not play the game again by the time it does come out. But belittling the efforts of our union reps or trying to snidely make accusations about our team (again I might add as you've done this plenty) is not something we are going to sit here and accept.

[comment removed by admin for violating the forum rules]
And to comments like this you're just outing yourself to get moderators infracting you for such intolerant and un-inclusive behaviour, don't try to speak for us especially with such incorrect statements that go counter to what we've already said numerous times are our views.
 
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Besides, it's not even the new content the people in the thread are asking for. Just the removal of hard-coded restriction, which already was not in CK2 and it worked.
Yes and no. In its core this thread asks for the ability to freely mod in same-sex marriages into the game. Leaving all the related issues to the modders themselves, and the only thing is to have this feature bug-free and reliable.
But some have also said, that until the game includes (without mods) some sort of "official" version of same-sex marriage, they won't be satisfied. This latter however means a lot more than just removing a hard-coded restriction (and making sure it works as intended), and needs design as well as scripting. I for one am very much against this sentiment on the grounds of meaning more work for the devs and also making modders less relevant. (I would rather see a dozen mods featuring same-sex marriage, than only one PDX-developed one.)
 
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A lot of our team is in our unions including multiple of our actual union representatives. Trying to tie this together belittles their hard work of doing these surveys and tries to paint our team as being anti-LBGT which couldn't be further from the truth of what we feel especially given that our team has plenty of LGBT+ people in it.

Having LGBTQ+ people in a team, sadly doesn't mean the team is inclusive and is in itself not an argument. And I do see a disconnect between Paradox promise of inclusivity and everything that has been happening since the launch of CK3 in regards to same-sex marriage. And the fact that the only fix so far is to not even include this in the game vanilla but let modders take charge once again, doesn't show a lot of support for the LGBTQ+ community. Inclusivity is not a luxury, it is a necessity. And we need companies like Paradox to step up and do their parts.

Yes and no. In its core this thread asks for the ability to freely mod in same-sex marriages into the game. Leaving all the related issues to the modders themselves, and the only thing is to have this feature bug-free and reliable.
But some have also said, that until the game includes (without mods) some sort of "official" version of same-sex marriage, they won't be satisfied. This latter however means a lot more than just removing a hard-coded restriction (and making sure it works as intended), and needs design as well as scripting. I for one am very much against this sentiment on the grounds of meaning more work for the devs and also making modders less relevant. (I would rather see a dozen mods featuring same-sex marriage, than only one PDX-developed one.)

I am one of those wanting this to be vanilla in the game, and I disagree with you that it would make modders less relevant. Quite the opposite, I think it would give modders even more open possibilities. And what we are talking about is about inclusivity. The way the game is at the moment is like half inclusive. It doesn't work. You can be inclusive or you aren't. It's like Paradox is making an attempt at being inclusive but isn't fulfilling through its promise of inclusivity, and this is why same-sex marriage should be added in the game vanilla, not just the removal of the hard-coded restriction. Yes, it means more work, but this is something that cannot be quantified, it simply needs to get done whatever the cost, whatever the time. Paradox made a promise to its LGBTQ+ players, they need to fulfill it.
 
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Splorghley

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There's been some strident voices in this thread, and I think it's important to note that they're not necessarily representative of everyone else who's been supportive of / waiting for this feature.

Real change happens by way of incremental positive steps; it rarely happens because someone digs their heels in and refuses to accept anything short of perfection. It's particularly unlikely to happen in an environment of attacks and allegations.

I really appreciate the devs' time and focus on this, and I appreciate the engagement with the community. Other studios could just as easily have ignored us completely. Thank you.
 
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Midnighter

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Yes it's an rpg but that has no bearing on what I said. The base game is incomplete. It is not a relationship simulator it is a medieval ruler simulator.
Again - no problem with having this option. But if it is hard coded and takes time - not a priority. If we were playing a dating game, etc. then of course my comments would not apply.
The lack of Constantinople is a greater loss than being unable to change the portrait image of a sex partner.
CK3 is a relationship simulator since players are playing a character as a member of each dynasty. And each characters have to find relationships(not just for a rommantic relationship) with other characters to build stronger dynasty and gain score. That's the goal of this game. EU4 is cleary not relationship simulator. This is also primarily historical sandbox game as you said. Same sex marriage has existed in history but on the other hand byzantin empire restablishing united roman empire has not. I mean, you are prioritizing pure fantasy over real history. Isn't it odd to desperately finding 'legit point' to espress your discomfort on LGBT rights and being wrong at the same time?
 
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Please stop trying to blame your dissatisfaction with our release timing of one feature on theory crafting utter nonsense to do with our work environment, its honestly quite insulting to try and tie these unrelated things together, we're the ones who are actually here so you'd think if you care that much about our work environment you'd be a bit compassionate to our workers.

A lot of our team is in our unions including multiple of our actual union representatives. Trying to tie this together belittles their hard work of doing these surveys and tries to paint our team as being anti-LBGT which couldn't be further from the truth of what we feel especially given that our team has plenty of LGBT+ people in it.

You are free to not be happy with the time a release takes and even not play the game again by the time it does come out. But belittling the efforts of our union reps or trying to snidely make accusations about our team (again I might add as you've done this plenty) is not something we are going to sit here and accept.

I'm seeing this kind of escalating the situation by using strawman fallacy on this forum over and over. He didn't say that all of your team are homophobic nor belittled anyone. I sincerely thank you for hard works on new patch and communicating with us(I also loved your dev diaries) but I want to ask you this : Are you trying to communicate with us as an employee of this company or just another fellow user of this forum? Why are you threatening people? Is this a Paradox's official position and threatening consumer is a communication policy?
 
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halkszavu

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CK3 is a relationship simulator since players are playing a character as a member of each dynasty. And each characters have to find relationships(not just for a rommantic relationship) with other characters to build stronger dynasty and gain score. That's the goal of this game. EU4 is cleary not relationship simulator. This is also primarily historical sandbox game as you said. Same sex marriage has existed in history but on the other hand byzantin empire restablishing united roman empire has not. I mean, you are prioritizing pure fantasy over real history. Isn't it odd to desperately finding 'legit point' to espress your discomfort on LGBT rights and being wrong at the same time?
Out of curiosity, can you give me some examples of same-sex marriage from the timespan of the game? How were the dynastic aspects handled in those (naming, inheritance, alliances)? Were there any general rules or assumptions? Or every situation was different, and handled in wills (as it was common at the time in the nobility)?
 
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Real change happens by way of incremental positive steps; it rarely happens because someone digs their heels in and refuses to accept anything short of perfection. It's particularly unlikely to happen in an environment of attacks and allegations.

Ask them for a little and you'll definitely get nothing. Demand a lot and you might get something. Inverse of 'give an inch and they'll take a mile'.

The story of social progress is one of bold people demanding radical, revolutionary changes and getting a modicum of what they demanded to shut them up, not one of people meekly asking if they might please have a little dignity and the people withholding it politely assenting.
 
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Splorghley

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Ask them for a little and you'll definitely get nothing. Demand a lot and you might get something. Inverse of 'give an inch and they'll take a mile'.

The story of social progress is one of bold people demanding radical, revolutionary changes and getting a modicum of what they demanded to shut them up, not one of people meekly asking if they might please have a little dignity and the people withholding it politely assenting.

This is a satisfying and often repeated story (plays well at the GLAAD awards), but it's utterly wrong. It wasn't the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence who made same-sex marriage happen in the United States, it was people like Andrew Sullivan out-arguing his fellow conservatives on C-Span for two decades.

The gay movement won by winning hearts and minds with patience, humanity, and compassion, and the reason it's stalling hard these days is precisely because it's far easier to be incensed and make utopian demands than it is to put in hard, often unsatisfying work making real change happen. We have the most successful social movement since civil rights behind us, and we insist on throwing away the lessons it teaches us. Taking melodramatically uncompromising stances with a well-meaning Swedish video game developer on the Internet may feel good, but it's a highway to achieving precisely nothing in the long run.

I'm not expecting the louder voices to agree with me here, but I want the devs to know the louder voices aren't speaking for everyone. Good faith efforts at inclusion are a good thing, and I will always appreciate those that make them, however imperfectly.
 
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Yes and no. In its core this thread asks for the ability to freely mod in same-sex marriages into the game. Leaving all the related issues to the modders themselves, and the only thing is to have this feature bug-free and reliable.
But some have also said, that until the game includes (without mods) some sort of "official" version of same-sex marriage, they won't be satisfied. This latter however means a lot more than just removing a hard-coded restriction (and making sure it works as intended), and needs design as well as scripting. I for one am very much against this sentiment on the grounds of meaning more work for the devs and also making modders less relevant. (I would rather see a dozen mods featuring same-sex marriage, than only one PDX-developed one.)
This thread is incredible. I guess this is what PDS gets for trying so hard to be inclusive at the expense of plausible alternative history simulation. Not even the option to actually make most people in a medieval world more interested in their own sex is enough evidence for this crowd to suggest that the developers want to please everyone's wildest ahistorical fantasies. Nope, they're all still bigots who hard block equal rights.
 
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The gay movement won by winning hearts and minds with patience, humanity, and compassion, and the reason it's stalling hard these days is precisely because it's far easier to be incensed and make utopian demands than it is to put in hard, often unsatisfying work making real change happen. We have the most successful social movement since civil rights behind us, and we insist on throwing away the lessons it teaches us. Taking melodramatically uncompromising stances with a well-meaning Swedish video game developer on the Internet may feel good, but it's a highway to achieving precisely nothing in the long run.

I think you are forgetting that any gains made in the US can be challenged, that in some part of the world gay rights are not going forward but backward, or even that in some places even being gay is still not a right but a crime.

And while I like your romanticisation of the gay movement, may I remind that Pride itself was born from demonstrations and protests, not always peaceful.

But that aside, we aren't asking Paradox to change the world, we are simply asking them to make good on their promise of inclusivity and to be the ally to the LGBTQ+ community that they say they are. Walk the talk, I think it is a fair request.
 
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Splorghley

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Feb 10, 2012
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I think you are forgetting that any gains made in the US can be challenged, that in some part of the world gay rights are not going forward but backward, or even that in some places even being gay is still not a right but a crime.

And while I like your romanticisation of the gay movement, may I remind that Pride itself was born from demonstrations and protests, not always peaceful.

I don't think I'm forgetting this at all. I would bet a lot more on the success of conciliatory reformers working on winning over hearts / minds / institutions in those countries than I would on "not always peaceful" demonstrations and protests. The latter may be gratifying, but only the former is effective. Once the reformers prevail, of course, all credit will be taken by the protesters, but such is the thankless nature of hard work for real change.

But that aside, we aren't asking Paradox to change the world, we are simply asking them to make good on their promise of inclusivity and to be the ally to the LGBTQ+ community that they say they are. Walk the talk, I think it is a fair request.

The game is already possibly the most inclusive major studio game ever made (there's a whole customisable sexuality system!), so I think it's silly to claim Paradox hasn't delivered handsomely. I still want moddable gay marriage, and I've been pretty open about that. I'm grateful Paradox has recognised its absence as a problem and agreed to fix it, and I see no possible benefit from raging melodramatically at someone who's already agreed to help.
 
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