Legalize Gay Modding!

[Seraron]

Thank you for your continued support all! I've been doing some experimenting on my own, and I'd like to show you all how things could be for modders if these hard coded checks were lifted. To do this I'll be using two tools mod makers currently can't use in their scripts: the console command pregnancy, and Cheat Engine, for flipping exactly two bits in memory.

Today Duchess Matilda is getting married to a guy named Guy:
View attachment 621315
Matrilinealy of course, the Duchess is an important woman.

Currently, even if you manage to get two women in this screen (which in the base game you can't) the button to marry still won't let you click it.

But the moment the AI accepts, before the ceremony has even started, I can manually flip a single bit in memory to get:
View attachment 621318
A Duchess Guy! It turns out that the only real difference between a male and a female in CK3 is a single bit in memory (1 for female, and 0 for male). When that bit is flipped in memory, the character automatically updates in-game to show a new model, gendered titles, and pronouns. Modders just aren't allowed to touch that bit in memory. They even get a ceremony:

View attachment 621334

Now while this is well and good, Duchess Matilda still needs heirs. But while modders are not allowed to have the Duchess impregnate her wife, the independent console command for pregnancy just so happens to not have that limitation. So with a quick command of pregnancy 18255 17897 the Duchess gets her wish:
View attachment 621336
And this will work as expected throughout the pregnancy. Unfortunately the game has one more hard-coded block here. Right as the baby is born, it will refuse to assign a father to them if that character is female (real_father can be female though! How does that work?). So the Duchess is going to have to put on her best chevron mustache for when the stork comes (storks are notorious bigots):
View attachment 621344
And there we go:
View attachment 621346
And now removing her moustache, we can see that the child has both of the mothers as parents:
View attachment 621353

It even list's both as Mother in the tool-tip when you play as them. But what's this? The child isn't of Matilda's dynasty, but her wife's! That's because this marriage was matrilinial, and it was Guy who mothered the boy. It appears that normal and matrilineal marriages are already functional for same-sex parings. In matrilineal marriages the one who gives birth passes the dynasty, and in normal marriages the one who doesn't give birth does.


I hope this helps to illustrate just how practical adding in these modding features would be. Behind the blocking checks the functionality seems to already be there. It also illustrates that there doesn't seem to be a good reason for set_gender to have been removed as a modding tool. The effect is already there, just hidden from modders.

Remember that, post-release, CK2 had a lot of stuff that was originally hard-coded brought up to the soft layer. Usually based on user request, and feasibily.
(I was trying to find a list of all the stuff in CK2 that had this treatment, but can't seem to find one. If anyone else knows of it please post it).

We can see from the above demonstration by WaffleIroner that it's feasible in CK3. So if PDX's post-release support of CK3 is going to be anything like CK2, I think we can reasonably expect that this request will be met in the (hopefully) not-to-distant future.

 

[thadian]

I support you. We can set minimum reproduction and marriage age to 10, seduce our sisters, nieces, and daughters, and mod religions to consider genetic traits as sins or virtues (eugenics religion). We can have full non-adultry, open polyamory in this world, which is already basically a swinger club on cocaine and viagra night - but we can't possibly have a gay marriage or a gay parentage and adoption. This tells me the people at Paradox have weird priorities, considering just how much of the game is otherwise focused on cuckolding and seducing/lovers with other people's soulmates.

 

[ImperatorRoman]

I support you. We can set minimum reproduction and marriage age to 10, seduce our sisters, nieces, and daughters, and mod religions to consider genetic traits as sins or virtues (eugenics religion). We can have full non-adultry, open polyamory in this world, which is already basically a swinger club on cocaine and viagra night - but we can't possibly have a gay marriage or a gay parentage and adoption. This tells me the people at Paradox have weird priorities, considering just how much of the game is otherwise focused on cuckolding and seducing/lovers with other people's soulmates.

It might have to do with Russia's gay propaganda law. Since Paradox has a decent customer base in Russia (enough that CKIII has a Russian localization) they may not have wanted to run afoul of Russia's censors. That is, of course, entirely speculation of my part. They could have simply forgotten to remove the hard-coding limits during development.

 

[legalboxerbriefs]

It might have to do with Russia's gay propaganda law. Since Paradox has a decent customer base in Russia (enough that CKIII has a Russian localization) they may not have wanted to run afoul of Russia's censors. That is, of course, entirely speculation of my part. They could have simply forgotten to remove the hard-coding limits during development.

That's a possibility, but I don't see how the existing base game features don't already violate that law.

 

[ImperatorRoman]

That's a possibility, but I don't see how the existing base game features don't already violate that law.

I agree, I was only speculating as to why Paradox hard-coded against same-sex marriage without accusing them of homophobia since I don't believe that to be the case. Since other video games have had to self-censor their lgbt+ content in Russia it wouldn't be a huge stretch to imagine Paradox did the same.

Personally though, I think it's most likely an oversight issue. Especially since there does seems to be marriage scripts that are moddable and would allow same-sex marriage if not for the underlying hard-coded limits.

 

[ArcturusXV]

I agree, I was only speculating as to why Paradox hard-coded against same-sex marriage without accusing them of homophobia since I don't believe that to be the case. Since other video games have had to self-censor their lgbt+ content in Russia it wouldn't be a huge stretch to imagine Paradox did the same.

Personally though, I think it's most likely an oversight issue. Especially since there does seems to be marriage scripts that are moddable and would allow same-sex marriage if not for the underlying hard-coded limits.

It would be easy to self-censor, yeah, so my guess is this could be Tencent flexing their 5% ownership of PDX. If it wasn't hard-coded in CK2 in 2012, and now it is - especially given how relentlessly the devs have leaned into deviancy of all other forms with CK3 - that's really the only factor to make sense in my opinion. Unless next June we'll be able to buy the CK3 Pride Pack DLC which'll change that restriction for us, aren't they just the best and so progressive etc. Wouldn't put it past them, and yet, I'd buy that DLC full price, right now, if it keeps EA-style monetization outta their games.

But don't get me wrong - Paradox has really impressed me (and likely annoyed all the phobics 'respectfully' disagreeing here, so bonus points there too) with their efforts, given that yes, Crusader Kings is a historically entrenched franchise by design. It'd be easier to just say 'soz, dem's da breaks, kiddo' and stay true to their original concept and win over some of our respectful guests in the process. EDIT: although, despite forgetting to mention it in the first pass, it really does irk me that there's a Sodomite trait which not only applies to all religions (when the term is only pertinent to Abrahamic faiths in RL) but also only to homo/bisexual characters when sodomy isn't, and the game just assumes what that character gets up to in-flagrante. Like, it's not a pre-req activity, and if the devs really wanted to go full immersion (no pun intended but much enjoyed) they could make it a Decision to partake or refrain from it.

Semantics aside, the marriage aspect needs to change either way, though. And for anyone mass-disagreeing to this whole discussion... it's not the incest or the torture or the forced concubine taking of prisoners, or the cuckolding, or the blahblahblah insert awful thing here, or even the mods that undress anyone so you can properly see the effects of your 'make them huge' decision on 16 yo characters. Ya good with like, all that, but gay marriage, hellz nah, never happened back then. And there was much rejoicing, for history would forever be well and truly safe in their sticky hands...

 

[Sybreal]

We're getting off-topic again. Let's avoid starting discussions on topics other than modding. Speculating as to why Paradox hardcoded it isn't helpful. Like I've said before, these kinds of topics tend to be polarizing. Most people have a strong opinion, one way or the other and it can lead to fights.

The discussion has been leaning away from modding, which is what this thread is about. Let's get back on topic like the Moderator said and play nicely, even with people who disagree. Simply pointing out the flaws in their arguments is usually enough.

 

[Zhatelier]

I seriously doubt there's anything nefarious on this from the part of PDX. Much more likely option is that the game, to avoid extra complexity for launch, needs to assume that a married couple is of opposite genders. There are several things that would have had to be solved for it to be implemented in the game, many of which have already been pointed out in this very thread. (Also questions that'll need to be considered for mods if/when the tools are added.)

1. Producing an heir in a same-sex marriage (ssm for the sake of abbreviation)
Adoption? Surrogate parents? Something supernatural? No heirs at all? What sort of events/decisions would have to accompany these? Will regular marriage events go foul and suddenly you'll have your gay husband pregnant? (Pretty sure there are other hardcoded limits there, so most likely not.)
2. If an heir is produced, whose dynasty should the child belong to?
The mother? The player? What about AI's ssm's?
3. Balancing the AI to use these new mechanics.
Will the AI be allowed to use these? Will it result in dynasties dying out due to lack of heirs?
4. Religion-based or game-rule?
If religion, which religions should start with this doctrine if any? If a rule, which options should be available?
5. What other game mechanics will need to be fixed to accommodate ssm?
Will existing (marriage) events need to be rewritten? Will this break some other hardcoded limitations? Will the balances in-game be all wrong?
One could probably go on with the list for quite a while.

As you can see, adding it into the base game isn't really a simple "just add it in, it's only a few lines of code" issue. Solutions to these have already been suggested, but it'll still take time to implement all the aspects in sufficient detail. While a modder might get away with little to no custom content for ssm mod, PDX would not get away as easily, thus events, balancing etc. will be required before it'll be in the game. Adding in the tools to mod it in is likely much less work and a good first step on this particular path. As I've said before, modders could, and likely will map out large portions of the problems that would arise and their solutions might be later adapted into the base game.

 

[Fabuloscriptor]

I seriously doubt there's anything nefarious on this from the part of PDX. Much more likely option is that the game, to avoid extra complexity for launch, needs to assume that a married couple is of opposite genders. There are several things that would have had to be solved for it to be implemented in the game, many of which have already been pointed out in this very thread. (Also questions that'll need to be considered for mods if/when the tools are added.)

1. Producing an heir in a same-sex marriage (ssm for the sake of abbreviation)
Adoption? Surrogate parents? Something supernatural? No heirs at all? What sort of events/decisions would have to accompany these? Will regular marriage events go foul and suddenly you'll have your gay husband pregnant? (Pretty sure there are other hardcoded limits there, so most likely not.)
2. If an heir is produced, whose dynasty should the child belong to?
The mother? The player? What about AI's ssm's?
3. Balancing the AI to use these new mechanics.
Will the AI be allowed to use these? Will it result in dynasties dying out due to lack of heirs?
4. Religion-based or game-rule?
If religion, which religions should start with this doctrine if any? If a rule, which options should be available?
5. What other game mechanics will need to be fixed to accommodate ssm?
Will existing (marriage) events need to be rewritten? Will this break some other hardcoded limitations? Will the balances in-game be all wrong?
One could probably go on with the list for quite a while.

As you can see, adding it into the base game isn't really a simple "just add it in, it's only a few lines of code" issue. Solutions to these have already been suggested, but it'll still take time to implement all the aspects in sufficient detail. While a modder might get away with little to no custom content for ssm mod, PDX would not get away as easily, thus events, balancing etc. will be required before it'll be in the game. Adding in the tools to mod it in is likely much less work and a good first step on this particular path. As I've said before, modders could, and likely will map out large portions of the problems that would arise and their solutions might be later adapted into the base game.

Right, so if you really can't find time to implement it just don't hardcode it out. Hardcoding it out takes more time than not hardcoding it out. There's a softcode implementation of the limitation right there. They didn't need to implement same-sex marriage. This thread was not asking them to do so. They just needed to not make it impossible for modders to implement.

 

[WaffleIroner]

While I don't like to speculate about Paradox's motives too much, as a software developer myself, my intuition tells me that marriage was likely hard-coded as it was in order to assist QA or other bugtesters in identifying bugs in the marriage system. Currently, if you try to marry same-sex characters together, it produces an error line in the game's log files (something I don't think can be done from the scripts). It was also likely a holdover from CK2, which was hard-coded similarly. The developers may have simply been unaware that removing the set_gender effect had also removed the hack modders had been using to get around that hard-coding. The decisions for removing (or just neglecting to implement) set_gender, and the decision to retain hard-coding in the marrage system could even have been made independently by developers on different teams, without each other realizing. These sorts of regressions are pretty common in untested-for edge-cases like this.

But the developers do still have options to support the features proposed in the OP, while still keeping this level of functionality for QA purposes. One would be for the currently hard-coded effects to still print warnings in the error log, but allow the effect through anyway. Another would be to adopt a syntax similar to what I propose on page 2 of this thread.

 

[klopkr]

I don't think there are political or nefarious reasons behind this being hardcoded. It's just so much more likley that it just slipped through the cracks as they were focusing on other more common features.

It is weird to me that they enabled sexuality rules and stuff like that and missed this but it was probably just considered non essential or visible enough to matter.

I will be frustrated if this isn't fixed by next pride and I start seeing corporate pride flags though.

 

[legalboxerbriefs]

I seriously doubt there's anything nefarious on this from the part of PDX. Much more likely option is that the game, to avoid extra complexity for launch, needs to assume that a married couple is of opposite genders. There are several things that would have had to be solved for it to be implemented in the game, many of which have already been pointed out in this very thread. (Also questions that'll need to be considered for mods if/when the tools are added.)

1. Producing an heir in a same-sex marriage (ssm for the sake of abbreviation)
Adoption? Surrogate parents? Something supernatural? No heirs at all? What sort of events/decisions would have to accompany these? Will regular marriage events go foul and suddenly you'll have your gay husband pregnant? (Pretty sure there are other hardcoded limits there, so most likely not.)
2. If an heir is produced, whose dynasty should the child belong to?
The mother? The player? What about AI's ssm's?
3. Balancing the AI to use these new mechanics.
Will the AI be allowed to use these? Will it result in dynasties dying out due to lack of heirs?
4. Religion-based or game-rule?
If religion, which religions should start with this doctrine if any? If a rule, which options should be available?
5. What other game mechanics will need to be fixed to accommodate ssm?
Will existing (marriage) events need to be rewritten? Will this break some other hardcoded limitations? Will the balances in-game be all wrong?
One could probably go on with the list for quite a while.

As you can see, adding it into the base game isn't really a simple "just add it in, it's only a few lines of code" issue. Solutions to these have already been suggested, but it'll still take time to implement all the aspects in sufficient detail. While a modder might get away with little to no custom content for ssm mod, PDX would not get away as easily, thus events, balancing etc. will be required before it'll be in the game. Adding in the tools to mod it in is likely much less work and a good first step on this particular path. As I've said before, modders could, and likely will map out large portions of the problems that would arise and their solutions might be later adapted into the base game.

First, this thread is about the fact that the devs hard-coded the game to prevent mods from allowing same-sex marriage. Second, I don't think anyone here is saying that it would be a two-second job to implement same-sex marriage; we're just saying that it should happen.

Third, as for the supposedly complicated issues you listed they actually are all quite easy to address:

1. For an heir, I think the default would just be no heirs at all unless you have one from a previous marriage, secondary spouses, or concubines. Adoption would be nice but not a prerequisite for marriage equality in the game.

2. In terms of dynastic politics, you could decide that at the start of the marriage--the same way you do with heterosexual marriages in the game. That's what the "matrilineal marriage" button does. This would also address issues with inheritance of titles from spouses.

3. Given how rare homosexuality is in the default settings of the base game, I strongly doubt that any dynasties would die out. If you made everyone gay, that might be different, but that's the risk you take when you use the setting to make everyone gay, isn't it?

4. I don't see why it wouldn't be a religion rule and game rule, the same way that acceptance of homosexuality and gender equality are. One possibility would be not including it in the default religions but making it available for when you create a new 'custom' religion.

 

[llye]

I seriously doubt there's anything nefarious on this from the part of PDX. Much more likely option is that the game, to avoid extra complexity for launch, needs to assume that a married couple is of opposite genders. There are several things that would have had to be solved for it to be implemented in the game, many of which have already been pointed out in this very thread. (Also questions that'll need to be considered for mods if/when the tools are added.)

1. Producing an heir in a same-sex marriage (ssm for the sake of abbreviation)
Adoption? Surrogate parents? Something supernatural? No heirs at all? What sort of events/decisions would have to accompany these? Will regular marriage events go foul and suddenly you'll have your gay husband pregnant? (Pretty sure there are other hardcoded limits there, so most likely not.)
2. If an heir is produced, whose dynasty should the child belong to?
The mother? The player? What about AI's ssm's?
3. Balancing the AI to use these new mechanics.
Will the AI be allowed to use these? Will it result in dynasties dying out due to lack of heirs?
4. Religion-based or game-rule?
If religion, which religions should start with this doctrine if any? If a rule, which options should be available?
5. What other game mechanics will need to be fixed to accommodate ssm?
Will existing (marriage) events need to be rewritten? Will this break some other hardcoded limitations? Will the balances in-game be all wrong?
One could probably go on with the list for quite a while.

As you can see, adding it into the base game isn't really a simple "just add it in, it's only a few lines of code" issue. Solutions to these have already been suggested, but it'll still take time to implement all the aspects in sufficient detail. While a modder might get away with little to no custom content for ssm mod, PDX would not get away as easily, thus events, balancing etc. will be required before it'll be in the game. Adding in the tools to mod it in is likely much less work and a good first step on this particular path. As I've said before, modders could, and likely will map out large portions of the problems that would arise and their solutions might be later adapted into the base game.

Although ck2 doesn't have this defined, even by base game rules the game does it ok. If one parent bares a child it's considered it's mother. If it's a matrilinear marriage the child is of the mothers dynasty.

Secondly this entire thread is about removing hardcoded code and adding script commands so that the moders can do wonders. Honestly they should have just transferred all commands that existed in ck2 to ck3 and only upgrade from there, not downgrade the modding capability.

 

[Morrowind3]

They managed to make gay marriage possible in Ck2 (Lesbocracy mod) without weird minor title workarounds or anything, so given time I'm sure someone smart finds a way

 

[nouser]

lesbocracy is the funniest mod ever.

 

[Sybreal]

They managed to make gay marriage possible in Ck2 (Lesbocracy mod) without weird minor title workarounds or anything, so given time I'm sure someone smart finds a way

There might be a way, but the same method as used in CK2 won't work in CK3 because they've hardcoded those scripts this time around. The entire point of this thread before it got somewhat derailed was to have Paradox un-hardcode those effects so we can use the same methods that worked in CK2. Believe me, there are plenty of people working on plenty of mods that have been trying to find a way around the problem.

 

[gamemaster]

Another reminder to stay on topic and stay kind. We've had to delete a lot of toxic posts, and if this continues I will lock the thread. Please remember our rules.

Can you send this thread to the devs? Because I think a lot of the toxic posts would stop if we knew they were looking into it once and for all. Sometimes people want to argue just to argue.

 

[Sybreal]

Can you send this thread to the devs? Because I think a lot of the toxic posts would stop if we knew they were looking into it once and for all. Sometimes people want to argue just to argue.

I agree. It would be nice to receive an official response. Otherwise, there will just be more bickering.

 

[WolfieShard]

As per the original purpose of thread, I would also enjoy these hardlocked coding options be open to modders. I can't mod the game myself, but being able to play an lgbt person and marry whichever lover I choose + take a concubine for the necessary heir to continue my dynasty would be phenomenal. Please unlock them at least, Paradox! Or i am not buying your DLCs

 

[tribnia]

I think that's because they have started work on CK3 sooooooo early that some features we favored weren't even introduced in CK2.
And I hope more of them will come back soooooon, including a less imbalanced artifact system, a upgraded CK3 system, a random world system which could even randomize the continent itself, as well as an Iron Century bookmark.