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Aubrey

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I hope my question will not be derailing the thread too much, but is there any evidence that Stalin cared for Finland beyond the demands made in 1939?

Since when is “cared for” a standard that means anything?!

The US did not “care for” Morocco or Tunisia or anything else in North Africa, but those areas sure as hell mattered.

Germany did not “care for” Belgium, except as a route to France.

In the big picture, whether a country “cared for” another or not is meaningless — you fought where you fpught, and you took what you had to not because you “cared” but because you had to.*

*A since-passed friend of mine fought with the USN at the Battle Off Samar, and watched most of his shipmates die. I can assure you that he did not “care for” that miserable piece stinking, feotid misery that gave the battle its name and shape, but fight he did...
 
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Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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I hope my question will not be derailing the thread too much, but is there any evidence that Stalin cared for Finland beyond the demands made in 1939?

Plenty of actions that make it plain. Unfortunately much of the archival material on Stalin is still restricted, so we don't have any written orders where he specifically says "we are going to annex Finland into the USSR as the Karelo-Finnish SSR". Also a lot of things he ordered simply were not written down. I've written about this topic here on the forums so many times that at this point I should probably start cataloguing my posts, but I can link you some. See for example these posts:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-of-the-cold-war.1460650/page-4#post-27401710

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...largest-city-why.1441889/page-3#post-27112659

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...largest-city-why.1441889/page-3#post-27172383

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nland-and-soviet-union.1447536/#post-27163281

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...he-40-width-meta.1158136/page-7#post-25326227

Russian historiography often still clings on to the "Stalin just wanted security for Leningrad" official USSR version, sometimes acceding to "OK, he wanted to conquer Finland, but only after the Finns refused his demands", still forgetting everything that happened during the Interim Peace that clearly showed the intent to conquer the entire country was always there and went nowhere after the Winter War.

The Leningrad argument, which was not based on a Finnish threat, but on a German or English threat through a naval invasion of Finland, falls completely apart when analyzed militarily, as no naval invasion of Finland by Germany or England could have succeeded by the 1930s-40s, particularly after the Baltic States had agreed to hand over bases to the Russians, but realistically the Russians would have just taken them anyway if it looked like someone was trying to attack Leningrad via navally invading Finland (which in itself is quite a ludicrous idea in the first place).

One of the men present at the Russo-Finnish negotiations in Moscow in October-November 1939 was one Colonel Paasonen. Paasonen actually presented a detailed memorandum to the Russians where he categorically presents how Leningrad cannot possibly be threatened by a German or English naval invasion of Finland, and how the Russian bases in the Baltic States already fulfill all the security requirements of Leningrad from the direction of the Baltic Sea. Hilariously enough, Stalin brushed off the arguments essentially with a "we disagree" and the memorandum was not discussed again.

Last December I actually got my hands on the full text of this paper, and I've been meaning to translate it to English since. I need to get around to doing that, and I'll probably post it in one of the threads that I linked you, the one in the history sub-forum where I talked about this topic. I any case I can let you know when I've translated it, if you want.

A bit of trivia: what I've found interesting is that until 1939 Stalin didn't seem to think much of Finland. This changed with the Winter War, and after that he took the country much more seriously, even more so after the Continuation War, perhaps even showing a hint of respect towards the Finns:

You live God knows where. You live in swamps and forests, and despite this you have developed your state. You have fought hard for your state. Compare Finland for example with Belgium. Belgians consider Finns to be half-hillbillies, not a cultured peoples. But Finland's people develop their country and did not behave like the Belgians in war. The Belgians are considered to be at the forefront of European peoples of culture, but when war broke out, they surrendered. Therefore I think that if the Finns had been put in the place of the Belgians, they would have fought hard against the German invaders. -Joseph Stalin, during a meeting with the leaders of the Finland-Soviet Union Friendship Society, October 1945.

"In 1948 during the final banquet of the Finno-Soviet Treaty of 1948, Stalin proposed a toast to Finland's heroic army. After that he turned to Finnish prime minister Pekkala and asked, "How is the Marshal of Finland now?". When Pekkala had replied somewhat belittlingly "Well, how well can an old man be", Stalin became serious and told Pekkala "Listen now prime minister, Finland has a lot to thank for her old Marshal!"".
 
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I suppose it depends on what metric you use to ascertain "importance". In terms of military success, Finland certainly accomplished much more in the war than France and Italy, which were major powers, and ultimately it was on the Eastern Front where the fate of Europe was decided.

At any rate, if there's something good to come out of this, I hope the backlash this news has caused has demonstrated to the developers that there is indeed a market out there for a fleshed out Finland in HoI4. Now we just have to hope they act on it, hopefully sooner, rather than later. From a development perspective it makes sense to do Finland after NSB, since the work on the Eastern Front they've already done will still be fresh in the minds of the developers. They'll just need to add the missing parts on the canvas and finish the painting, so to speak.

Saying that it was ultimately on the Eastern Front is kind of boasting. America was also a major factor in the Germans losing. Saying that the Eastern Front was the deciding factor is just out of line there.
 
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Saying that it was ultimately on the Eastern Front is kind of boasting. America was also a major factor in the Germans losing. Saying that the Eastern Front was the deciding factor is just out of line there.

I guarantee that starting this debate will derail the thread and get it closed, so please let's just accept that you may disagree on the matter and leave it at that.

If you wish to discuss it further, the history subforum is the place to go https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forums/history-forum.44/
 
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Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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Saying that it was ultimately on the Eastern Front is kind of boasting. America was also a major factor in the Germans losing. Saying that the Eastern Front was the deciding factor is just out of line there.

I never said America wasn't a major factor, in fact I am quite certain Russia would have lost without American lend-lease. Nonetheless it was still on the Eastern Front where the fate of Europe was ultimately decided.
 
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Finnish foreign policy before the Winter War was indeed a Scandinavian orientation. The idea was that solidarity between the Nordic countries would protect them from invasion by Great Powers. This fell apart when Finland was invaded and none of the other Nordic countries intervened to help. This despite the fact that the Finnish and Swedish military had contingency plans for an actual Swedish intervention, but the political will on Sweden's part simply was not there. Of course not long after that Denmark and Norway fell, leaving just Finland and Sweden. There were still Finno-Swedish talks of a defence pact and even a temporary political union (even a Swedish-led personal union was suggested by some) but this all fell apart because Moscow and Berlin both objected to it. See also my post here.

The so-called Yartsev negotiations were on some level a lead-up to the Moscow negotiations in autumn 1939. Of course they were not as bold and demanding, because Russia had not yet signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Germany, which gave them the green light to take Finland over without threat of German intervention (as long as France was standing, anyway). So you had that.

Then had Finland accepted Stalin's demands for territory in 1939, the likely outcome would have been a postponed war until the summer of 1940, when Stalin would have come for the rest of the country. In my opinion it's quite possible Finland would not have survived this alternate "Summer War", as opposed to how she survived the Winter War: maimed but alive. Why? Because accepting the 1939 demands would have severely weakened Finland's defence (it would have meant that the Mannerheim Line would have needed to be abandoned) and the international situation had changed dramatically by then (it was the threat of Allied intervention that got Stalin to sign peace in March 1940, postponing his planned Finnish conquest; this threat would not have been there in mid-1940). And of course we can't ignore that for the most part "General Winter" was still on the side of the Finns, even if winter did mean considerably more mobility for the Russian armoured and mechanised forces, in Southeastern Finland in particular. So we have heavy involvement with Russia there either way, whether the Finns accept or don't accept Stalin's demands in the fall of 1939.

Then what about the Interim Peace of 1940-41? Well, that saw increased Russian demands, e.g. more territory, de facto war reparations, despite them not being a part of the peace treaty, control over Finnish nickel in Petsamo (not granted), forcing the Finns to build railroads that could only serve a military purpose for the Russians to occupy Finland, etc., meddling in domestic Finnish affairs through organising and funding a communist fifth column, constantly increasing political pressure, the denying of a Finno-Swedish defensive bloc, and so on. All this is what drove Finland to seek aid from Germany, as it was the only remaining source of help. By contrast Finno-Swedish interaction during this timeframe was basically limited to the aforementioned negotiations of mutual defence, some materiel purchases and Sweden funding the construction of the Finnish Salpa-line by 20% of its cost. That's about it.

Well what about after WW2? Well, again, it's pretty much just Russia, now that Germany was out of the picture. Heavy war reparations, complying with the demands of the Allied Control Commission (read: Soviet, as it consisted practically entirely of Russians, with only some 3-5 Brits), avoiding giving any excuse to the Russians to occupy the country while also avoiding the possibility of a communist coup. The Russian-backed communists had positioned themselves in a number of positions of power, including effectively taking over the State Police, making the threat of a Russian-backed coup very tangible. They were successfully removed from key positions by President Paasikivi and Fagerholm's SDP-led minority government in 1948, and the State Police was abolished and reformed under another name. Collectively this era of 1944-48 is referred to in Finnish historiography as the "Years of Danger" (Vaaran vuodet). Beyond trade and returning children sent to the other Nordics for safety during the war, there's very little interaction here with the other Nordic countries that could be somehow translated into the game.
I suspect fear of being gangbanged by both the Germans and Soviet played a role in the decision to not fully support Finland. The world had just witnessed Germany and the USSR split a helpless Poland between each other. Denmark and Norway fell to Germany in a week or so.

With Hitler and Stalin both breathing down your neck you'd probably think twice about sticking your neck out too far lest they interpret you as free real estate.
 
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Meh, I get it. They wanted to keep Finland together with the other Scandinavian countries. I mean, if they tried to do Finland in Barbarossa, all the would have left for the Nordic dlc would be Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and the Principality of Sealand.
 
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I suppose it depends on what metric you use to ascertain "importance". In terms of military success, Finland certainly accomplished much more in the war than France and Italy, which were major powers, and ultimately it was on the Eastern Front where the fate of Europe was decided.

At any rate, if there's something good to come out of this, I hope the backlash this news has caused has demonstrated to the developers that there is indeed a market out there for a fleshed out Finland in HoI4. Now we just have to hope they act on it, hopefully sooner, rather than later. From a development perspective it makes sense to do Finland after NSB, since the work on the Eastern Front they've already done will still be fresh in the minds of the developers. They'll just need to add the missing parts on the canvas and finish the painting, so to speak.

That might be selling France and particularly Italy a bit short (Italy did far better than its "popular record"), but here's not the place to debate that :) I'm not suggesting we don't want a well-fleshed out Finland in the game (we absolutely do), I just don't think it's a huge issue it won't be part of NSB. And, as you say, I imagine after this enthusiasm for Finland, there may be good hope for a Scandinanvian pack to be in the not-too-distant future, and for Finland to get plenty of care :) I'll even settle for Finland coming along before MtG 2 :p
 
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Meh, I get it. They wanted to keep Finland together with the other Scandinavian countries. I mean, if they tried to do Finland in Barbarossa, all the would have left for the Nordic dlc would be Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and the Principality of Sealand.

Could always throw in Belgium if Norway, Sweden, Denmark are not enough.
 
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Meh, I get it. They wanted to keep Finland together with the other Scandinavian countries. I mean, if they tried to do Finland in Barbarossa, all the would have left for the Nordic dlc would be Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and the Principality of Sealand.


Actually, I think Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and some other country (Belgium or Iceland) would actually make a fair pack.

and nah, I think Finland is more suited to an Eastern Front DLC then a Scandanavian DLC.
 
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If Finnish focus tree can't be implemented because it needs better combat mechanics, does that mean we're not getting any significant changes to combat in this expansion, aside from the minor changes in combat width values?
I'd rather wait a few more months for the expansion release. Perhaps this extra time can also allow for resources to be allocated to fix crucial bugs and improve the AI. We're in 2021 and Anarchist Spain still spawns in a historical gameplay.

I’m guessing for the Scandinavian dlc they’ll be throwing in some of the softer alt history like “what if the other Nordics sent more aid to Finland?” Or what if Norway didn’t fall and the allies had access to supply Finland?

You're guessing wrong. The scandinavian DLC will be about vikings raiding Europe and colonizing America.
 
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Just like many of the other players, I believe that not polishing Finland 5 years after the release of the game... is just wrong.

On the topic of Finland. Is there any good mod that can scratch my itch for a proper Finland playthrough?
 
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Zeprion

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Its easy to think that personal priorities are truth, but the fact is that I put a lot of effort into figuring out the order of nations. When you combine these factors it makes sense:
* Numbers wise, finland isnt a very popular nation compared to a lot of the others we have worked on
* cant do finland until after USSR is redone (I see numbers when nations have modded trees also so its not that)
* we could not do USSR until now because if land combat and other technical and team dependencies

I understand that people wanted finland, and as a dev you do not want to disappoint people. But, rock and a hard place, it didnt make sense and if you look at my posting history in recent memory I have said every time that it belongs in a scandi dlc when its come up. It also do not make sense at the start of every dlc to list everything you AREN'T going to do as well. We got roadmaps posted and I tried to make that even more clear in the video - but when people keep posting "100% sure X is coming now" posts its really a tough thing to deal with for us.
I believe you might make a confusion between causation and correlation.

- Finland isn't very population compared to a lot others BECAUSE it was no unique focus tree.
- When a player picks a nation he wants to play with, the focus tree (what he can actually do with the nation) is a major factor.
- So a good/terrible focus tree may motivate/demotivate a player to play/not play a certain nation.
- Because of this, the number-wise isn't an indicator of how much a player likes a particular nation as much as it is of how much a player likes a certain focus tree.

It's not a mistake with the data, it's a mistake with the interpretation of data.

What was the number of people playing China before/after the focus tree was added?
What was the number of people playing Mexico or Netherlands before/after the focus tree was added?

A lot of people play Hungary only because it has that interesting Austria-Hungary path, if you would have been able to form Austria-Hungary as Austria instead, the number-wise will change a lot in favor of Austria.

This explains the outrage over Finland despite being no big deal number-wise. A lot of people liked Finland, they just don't like Finland's current generic focus tree.

I understand it's too late for Finland now. But please don't confuse causation and correlation because the focus tree is a major factor in what makes a country fun. The numbers are not an indicator of how much a player likes a particular nation as much as it is of how much a player likes a certain focus tree.

If you look at the most played nations in Jannuary 2021, you'll find that all of them except Italy have unique focus trees:
Germany - 17.9%
Italy - 7.4%
Soviet - 7.7%
France - 5.5%
Turkey - 5.1%
Britain - 4.7%
USA - 4.6%
Japan - 3.9%
Hungary - 3.7%
Spain - 3.2%
Greece - 3.0%
Romania - 2.0%
China - 1.9%
PRC - 1.9%
Bulgaria - 1.8%
Yugoslavia - 1.7%
Netherlands - 1.5%
Portugal - 1.5%
Mexico - 1.4%
Czechoslovakia - 1.2%
And there's also the recent release effect. Nations that recently got a focus tree will have inflated numbers for a few months, because a lot of players will want to try them.

I don't know the numbers for May 2021, but I bet that the numbers for Bulgaria, Turkey and Greece and much lower now than they used to be in Jannuary 2021.

And I bet that after "No Step Back" is released, you will find a huge increase in the number of people playing Poland, Russia and the Baltics.
 
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I believe you might make a confusion between causation and correlation.

- Finland isn't very population compared to a lot others BECAUSE it was no unique focus tree.
- When a player picks a nation he wants to play with, the focus tree (what he can actually do with the nation) is a major factor.
- So a good/terrible focus tree may motivate/demotivate a player to play/not play a certain nation.
- Because of this, the number-wise isn't an indicator of how much a player likes a particular nation as much as it is of how much a player likes a certain focus tree.

It's not a mistake with the data, it's a mistake with the interpretation of data.

What was the number of people playing China before/after the focus tree was added?
What was the number of people playing Mexico or Netherlands before/after the focus tree was added?

A lot of people play Hungary only because it has that interesting Austria-Hungary path, if you would have been able to form Austria-Hungary as Austria instead, the number-wise will change a lot in favor of Austria.

This explains the outrage over Finland despite being no big deal number-wise. A lot of people liked Finland, they just don't like Finland's current generic focus tree.

I understand it's too late for Finland now. But please don't confuse causation and correlation because the focus tree is a major factor in what makes a country fun. The numbers are not an indicator of how much a player likes a particular nation as much as it is of how much a player likes a certain focus tree.

If you look at the most played nations in Jannuary 2021, you'll find that all of them except Italy have unique focus trees:

And there's also the recent release effect. Nations that recently got a focus tree will have inflated numbers for a few months, because a lot of players will want to try them.

I don't know the numbers for May 2021, but I bet that the numbers for Bulgaria, Turkey and Greece and much lower now than they used to be in Jannuary 2021.

And I bet that after "No Step Back" is released, you will find a huge increase in the number of people playing Poland, Russia and the Baltics.
More over, no-one in the list have a genetic tree.
 
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I suppose it depends on what metric you use to ascertain "importance". In terms of military success, Finland certainly accomplished much more in the war than France and Italy, which were major powers, and ultimately it was on the Eastern Front where the fate of Europe was decided.

At any rate, if there's something good to come out of this, I hope the backlash this news has caused has demonstrated to the developers that there is indeed a market out there for a fleshed out Finland in HoI4. Now we just have to hope they act on it, hopefully sooner, rather than later. From a development perspective it makes sense to do Finland after NSB, since the work on the Eastern Front they've already done will still be fresh in the minds of the developers. They'll just need to add the missing parts on the canvas and finish the painting, so to speak.

By backlash, you mean few posters on the forums who aren't even majority of people playing the game? Can't believe I had to make post due to vocal minority, as long as everything else about the DLC is fun, I frankly don't care if Finland comes now or later
 
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When I was growing up, my dad’s business partner was a Norwegian who (like so many others) was part of the Norwegian resistance. His “bond” with the Swedes was not nearly so brotherly nor so warm as you make out. Sweden may view itself as Scandinavia’s own Nordic Arsenal of Democracy, but the other countries in the region don’t necessarily feel the same.
I've lived in both countries (though I'm born and raised a Swede) and it varies. Sweden could definitely have contributed just about infinitely more than they did (I'm not saying that would have been neither popular nor smart though), but there were grateful Norwegians. For instance, the resistance would recruit and even train refugees in Sweden, and from what I've gathered, this was at least to some extent supported by Swedish officials. (EDIT) In general, what bothers people is not how much support Sweden gave to Norway though, but rather how helpful the Swedish were to the Germans through railway-access and trade.

Also, it sadly seems like my pessimism was right, the main issues with Finland will presumably be fixed via the Soviet tree. :confused: That's a shame for those who want to play a historical Finland with more meaningful interactions east. However, taking ahistorical/alt-history branches into the equation, I think there's plenty of meaningful interaction for Finland to the west too.

Perhaps Sweden would be more keen to get involved if there was an Åland at stake*? Perhaps the workers in Jellivaara/Gällivare and Kiiruna/Kiruna (the class-divides used to be pretty strong there) could use some liberation? Maybe a scheme with the Allies to occupy Sweden could be made? There could also be a "united we stand"-type deal where one or more of the nations spearhead the defensive integration of the region. Or perhaps a roles-reversed where Finland is the one standing by itself while the Scandis get invaded? And of course, seeing as Finland with their huge contribution to the war can't be overshadowed by Estonia, there also has to be a scenario where the king of Finland inherits Germany. However, communist forces take power in France and Britain and they, along with the Soviets, invade to break this Union. Will you succeed and form the Keisarikunta? or will sisu be extinguished in the crosswinds of a two-front war?

Okay, that last one is a bit of a joke, but I'm sure the actual focus tree will have some of those as well. Eitherway I'm happy as long as thought is given to the design of the tree. I want both deep, historical branches that teach me history, as well as whack branches that make little sense, but provide a different experience.

That said, maybe we could still get some minor content for Finland? I'm thinking things like art, music and/or models. Surely that could be implemented without having to postpone or cut too much? Especially music I think would be nice (Säkkijärven Polkka could play when you manage to break the Soviet encryption:p), seeing as it can be done quite subtly. Otherwise people might complain that Finland got content, but not a focus tree.

* I've heard that Åland could have become Swedish had the latter gotten more involved with the wars. But I don't know how true that it, and it certainly isn't represented in the game.
 
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At any rate, if there's something good to come out of this, I hope the backlash this news has caused has demonstrated to the developers that there is indeed a market out there for a fleshed out Finland in HoI4.
lmao haha

Sorry, i generally like a lot of your takes on this forum and think you give a lot of good input but this is just laughable.

What backlash? The backlash certainly isn't any bigger than when it was confirmed Italy will not feature in this DLC, also not when the Baltics dev diary was released and forumites reeee'd about "hurr durr Baltics get a focus tree and nation XYZ does not". It's just the usual suspects dropping a few angry threads here and there and most of it will be forgotten either next wednesday or at the latest when the USSR tree is shown.
 
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lmao haha

Sorry, i generally like a lot of your takes on this forum and think you give a lot of good input but this is just laughable.

What backlash?

This one (pic from a couple of days ago):

finpdx.png


It's just the usual suspects dropping a few angry threads here and there and most of it will be forgotten either next wednesday or at the latest when the USSR tree is shown.

It's more than that, and it's still a backlash at any rate, hopefully one that will be remembered. And I for one in the course of participating on these boards over the past 15 years have not seen such an outcry over one nation in the past, and it was a positive surprise to me.
 
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This one (pic from a couple of days ago):

View attachment 723318



It's more than that, and it's still a backlash at any rate, hopefully one that will be remembered. And I for one in the course of participating on these boards over the past 15 years have not seen such an outcry over one nation in the past, and it was a positive surprise to me.
I have this account for 5 years now and were a lurker before that and as for HoI4, you should know this full well, this is a semi-regular occurence whenever some non-mainstream nation get's a focus tree.
The backlash in EU4 over Leviathan, that was a backlash. This is, like i said, nothing more than a few angry threads and if you actually read in them you'd see that it by far isn't unanimous. There was even far more widespread and unified discomfort when the Poland diaries dropped over both the missing Habsburg and the cossack path. I also wouldn't be surprised if the number of threads about not doing Italy this DLC just a few weeks ago was similar.
 
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