Leaving out Finland is a joke.

[STABBY5]

a year or so ago. and BFTB was done first because people wanted turkey a lot more than scandinavia.

To summarize basically. there were lots of factors why it didnt really get added here

• Balancing barbarossa and land warfare and supply is a huge task. trying to make the winter war super cool at the same time would require superhuman powers so we didnt wanna do it at the same time
• generally with the way the winter war was it needs quite a lot of love to play well I think
• there are tons of cool stuff thats only doable when you combine it with rest of scandinavia and it was awkward to split it
• We felt Baltic states were harder to do separately with the part in soviet history so thats why we did that over scandinavia (also doing all of scandinavia isntead would be too much work)

Will the historical branch of the soviet tree be in the patch similar to America? Because if so this my alleviate some concerns about synergy between the soviet tree and the future Finish tree. It can be hard to make all of of the combinations of DLC all play nice and can leave certain DLC packs in their own little bubble.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

To summarize basically. there were lots of factors why it didnt really get added here

• Balancing barbarossa and land warfare and supply is a huge task. trying to make the winter war super cool at the same time would require superhuman powers so we didnt wanna do it at the same time
• generally with the way the winter war was it needs quite a lot of love to play well I think
• there are tons of cool stuff thats only doable when you combine it with rest of scandinavia and it was awkward to split it
• We felt Baltic states were harder to do separately with the part in soviet history so thats why we did that over scandinavia (also doing all of scandinavia isntead would be too much work)

In this case, you should have cut down the ahistorical polish branches and postponed the Baltic states for later.
With the currently anounced stuff, annexing Finland as Estonia will be more rewarding than starting as Finland, that's BS.

* Numbers wise, finland isnt a very popular nation compared to a lot of the others we have worked on

Are you implying Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are more popular?

 

[GrandVezir]

Are zou implying Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are more popular?

Poland has three in-game achievements, so it certainly would be among achievement hunters.

 

[sdplissken]

In this case, you should have cut down the ahistorical polish branches and postponed the Baltic states for later.
With the currently anounced stuff, annexing Finland as Estonia will be more rewarding than starting as Finland, that's BS.


Are zou implying Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are more popular?

And here I thought the whole point of the DLC was fixing the winter war.

 

[BlueAndGrey]

generally with the way the winter war was it needs quite a lot of love to play well I think

I hope this means you're looking at fronts that were huge in distance but covered by a small force. East Africa and North Finland (North Finland group had 8 battalions but had to cover 800km) come to mind.

I'm kinda annoyed it will be a bit longer until Finland gets a tree but I know you guys will do a great job when you eventually make it.

 

[Fenlander]

I've been playing Paradox games for over a decade but this has irritated me enough to actually log in and post.
I'm sorry, but this news turns the DLC into a no-buy for me for the reasons that have already been elaborated itt. Worse, it continues a pattern I see from Paradox of thinner and thinner guel since at least Man the Guns.
Maybe I'll pick it up in a year or two when it's on sale.

 

[overnightjustifier]

I understand they are planning to add guerilla warfare and deep winter war dynamics to the game in the expansion that includes finland and it does make sense. But in this dlc they can add simple continuation war focus and joining axis decisions like many mods have. In Scandinavian expansion they can do a complete overhaul and add these dynamics. It will make almost everyone happy.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Poland has three in-game achievements, so it certainly would be among achievement hunters.

These were made by the devs. But when PDX made a poll for most wanted achievement, Finnish him! got most votes.

 

[GrandVezir]

These were made by the devs. But when PDX made a poll for most wanted achievement, Finnish him! got most votes.

True, but

1. Poland already had its 3, and.
2. Finnish Him! was the best of a bad lot, as I recall. I voted for it but have yet to try for it (128/132).

 

[TalyonUngol]

People should look at the claim "it makes sense to combine Finland with the three Scandic countries in a single pack" critically.

What sense does it make? I have not seen a single credible reason so far. What important interactions, WW2 related, did Finland have with those countries in the 1936 - 1948 period, that were more important than her interactions with USSR and Germany? Sure, some aid and some volunteers. Hell, with logic like that make it a combined Finland & Italy pack (Finland got far more value from the Fiat G.50s than she did from the Swedish Gladiators, and Italy too sent rifles, they had torpedo boats operating on Ladoga etc.)

What "cool stuff" is there that makes sense to keep Finland chained to Sweden (and make no mistake, the Scandic pack will be Sweden and Friends in how they prioritize it) rather than the historical countries she interacted with? The Kalmar Union of 1938? Eastern reaches of the Viking Empire? All of this "cool stuff" will be more of the same "zany" alt history meme, built around achievements that Youtubers can create videos around.

From looking back to how the team has communicated on their plans, Finland has apparently been clumped together with Scandinavia since the beginning. Thus the apparent popularity of Turkey decided the matter; since Finland is chained to Sweden, she will only get attention when Sweden gets it. And that order is apparently decided by who shouts the loudest.

Another point that others have already raised is the new game mechanics that are apparently needed for Finland. Are they needed for the famous WW2 combatant Sweden as well? Because from where I'm sitting, the type of fighting Finland engaged in would have the biggest synergies with USSR, not Sweden. And how much attention and money will be allocated to improve the game mechanics in a country pack DLC?

Let's just say I am very skeptical already of the quality of the eventual end product of this Scandinavia DLC. It will be Sweden focused, and will end up attracting gamer ire when it turns out Finland focii either don't work properly with the Soviet ones, or end up actually breaking them. And it will be released at the earliest a year from now, when the game is over six years old already.

I think you are misunderstanding focus tree packs. Finland going with Sweden has nothing to do with their interactions. It's locations. Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland are all nordic countries in that corner. While Finland does work with USSR in terms of mechanics with continuarion war, that can be covered under mechanics, decisions, events and AI coding. It doesnt need a focus tree with USSR. It makes A lot of sense geographically to go with the other 3.

 

[Áurum]

no, not without huge delays or cutting half of USSR. So no


Thats not a very fair to make that comparison when one of those would take several months and the other one not very long at all


Its easy to think that personal priorities are truth, but the fact is that I put a lot of effort into figuring out the order of nations. When you combine these factors it makes sense:
* Numbers wise, finland isnt a very popular nation compared to a lot of the others we have worked on
* cant do finland until after USSR is redone (I see numbers when nations have modded trees also so its not that)
* we could not do USSR until now because if land combat and other technical and team dependencies

I understand that people wanted finland, and as a dev you do not want to disappoint people. But, rock and a hard place, it didnt make sense and if you look at my posting history in recent memory I have said every time that it belongs in a scandi dlc when its come up. It also do not make sense at the start of every dlc to list everything you AREN'T going to do as well. We got roadmaps posted and I tried to make that even more clear in the video - but when people keep posting "100% sure X is coming now" posts its really a tough thing to deal with for us.

I would vote delay over not having Finland. AFAIK, we don't have a release date yet, so it would not be a great deal. Finland was a crucial part of the German-Soviet war because of the Murmansk railway and Hitler considering the Red Army weak after the Winter War. You can't simply let it out. Why does Finland have to be in an Scandinavian DLC when most of its interactions in the war were with the USSR?

 

[Hoi Neuling]

Don´t disagree Podcat. He and the Teams are correct to split it.

You don´t find much in I-Net for the Scandinavian States about Navy, Airforce and Army in that Time. The same for the States they are working on and for much of the Major States (France and UdSSR for example). Dosen´t matter you look in English, Russian, German or whatever Language.

The easyest are Germany, USA, UK and Commonwealth States.

I suggest and order the Community-Members which disagree to search all that Informations and make for the Devs the Groundwork in that. Then you see how hard it is.

I know that, because I tried it for an I-Net RPG (like an Pen & Paper one). Either you try it or shut up.

 

[Iskulya]

I admit I am quite surprised and disappointed Finland is being left out. It is hard to imagine that the Baltic states, which the game would be no worse off for not having any content for, are being prioritized over Finland.

I think the reasoning that Finland would have to tie into other Scandinavian focus trees does not seem quite right. A few months ago I read a history of Sweden in WW2, Sweden, the Swastika, and Stalin: The Swedish Experience in the Second World War. It was a very interesting book and it seems to me that Sweden has quite a lot of potential in terms of plausible alternate history and intervention on the Axis or Allies, but the book represented Sweden's dealing with Finland as being quite minor. Nothing that would warrant holding back a Finnish tree.

On the other hand, it does seem true that without some new gameplay mechanics it will be quite hard to do justice to Finland. It also seems that with the changes to logistics, doctrines, tanks, and other things we haven't seen yet that the team is already tapped out for this DLC on gameplay changes.

As dissapointing as it is, it is probably for the best that Finland is delayed until gameplay mechanics can be added to better represent it.

 

[brissyger]

Once again it is finite resources in their development team not their content design team that has left Finland out this time. So it is not a case of Baltic states being more important than Finland, it is a case of supply and land warfare updates being more important than the guerilla mechanics they want for Winter War.

 

[cac579]

Once again it is finite resources in their development team not their content design team that has left Finland out this time. So it is not a case of Baltic states being more important than Finland, it is a case of supply and land warfare updates being more important than the guerilla mechanics they want for Winter War.

No, They chose the baltic states over finland and the winter war wasn't really guerilla warfare. It had a front line. Besides the motti tactics could just be a tactic and you can fight the winter war by attacking the flanks with superior modifiers if you really want to "simulate" guerilla warfare.

 

[Axe99]

Rush job? Honestly, they are important enough that they should have had a tree from launch. They then have had the last 5 years to include them... it's just bad decisions but I agree that it shouldn't be done hastily.

That's getting a bit hyperbolic - the only nations to get focus trees at launch were the five majors, and arguing that Finland was the eighth most important country involved in WW2 is not cut-and-dried by any measure (China comfortably should come before Finland, at the very least).

At the end of the day, the devs have a vision, and are working towards it. I don't doubt for a second that Finland is part of that vision, but it's not part of it for this DLC. Just like people who are waiting for Italy to be given a nip and tuck, I'd suggest patience. Finland will get its turn.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with piping up to say you'd prefer it was done sooner (this is a perfectly appropriate thing to do), but some of the things being said in this thread (not by you specifically, although I don't believe not including Finland is a bad decision myself - there are plenty of reasons that could make it a good decision) seem to lack context and perspective just within the game, let alone with life more broadly.

 

[UlulvarCape]

no, not without huge delays or cutting half of USSR. So no

Then call me greedy and selfish. I'm absolutely fine with huge delays to let Finland be included in this pack.

I do understand that you guys have to be taking way too much time developing trees with the Soviet Tree confirmed to be the biggest, and let's be real here. To ensure that, I am expecting this DLC to come out in mid-2022. I'm not joking when I say that. Having to wait a long time to have the best quality for the Soviet tree is needed considering how important and influential it was in the war and turning the tide.

That said, this being an eastern front DLC without finland, just doesn't make this feel complete. Nor does this make this feel of the highest quality, but being real, I'm all for waiting to have a high quality much needed DLC completed rather then get the much needed DLC.

 

[Underground Dweller]

Then had Finland accepted Stalin's demands for territory in 1939, the likely outcome would have been a postponed war until the summer of 1940, when Stalin would have come for the rest of the country.

I hope my question will not be derailing the thread too much, but is there any evidence that Stalin cared for Finland beyond the demands made in 1939?

 

[Fulmen]

Finland was the eighth most important country involved in WW2 is not cut-and-dried by any measure (China comfortably should come before Finland, at the very least).

I suppose it depends on what metric you use to ascertain "importance". In terms of military success, Finland certainly accomplished much more in the war than France and Italy, which were major powers, and ultimately it was on the Eastern Front where the fate of Europe was decided.

At any rate, if there's something good to come out of this, I hope the backlash this news has caused has demonstrated to the developers that there is indeed a market out there for a fleshed out Finland in HoI4. Now we just have to hope they act on it, hopefully sooner, rather than later. From a development perspective it makes sense to do Finland after NSB, since the work on the Eastern Front they've already done will still be fresh in the minds of the developers. They'll just need to add the missing parts on the canvas and finish the painting, so to speak.

 

[Spartanlemur]

Another point is that how Finland behaves in the Continuation War is of crucial importance for Germany and Russia's performance on the Eastern front.

We don't have a proper Barbarossa unless it is contributing to the Eastern Front as it did historically, which makes this whole DLC half-finished at best.