Leaving out Finland is a joke.

[APostrofi]

People should look at the claim "it makes sense to combine Finland with the three Scandic countries in a single pack" critically.

What sense does it make? I have not seen a single credible reason so far. What important interactions, WW2 related, did Finland have with those countries in the 1936 - 1948 period, that were more important than her interactions with USSR and Germany? Sure, some aid and some volunteers. Hell, with logic like that make it a combined Finland & Italy pack (Finland got far more value from the Fiat G.50s than she did from the Swedish Gladiators, and Italy too sent rifles, they had torpedo boats operating on Ladoga etc.)

What "cool stuff" is there that makes sense to keep Finland chained to Sweden (and make no mistake, the Scandic pack will be Sweden and Friends in how they prioritize it) rather than the historical countries she interacted with? The Kalmar Union of 1938? Eastern reaches of the Viking Empire? All of this "cool stuff" will be more of the same "zany" alt history meme, built around achievements that Youtubers can create videos around.

From looking back to how the team has communicated on their plans, Finland has apparently been clumped together with Scandinavia since the beginning. Thus the apparent popularity of Turkey decided the matter; since Finland is chained to Sweden, she will only get attention when Sweden gets it. And that order is apparently decided by who shouts the loudest.

Another point that others have already raised is the new game mechanics that are apparently needed for Finland. Are they needed for the famous WW2 combatant Sweden as well? Because from where I'm sitting, the type of fighting Finland engaged in would have the biggest synergies with USSR, not Sweden. And how much attention and money will be allocated to improve the game mechanics in a country pack DLC?

Let's just say I am very skeptical already of the quality of the eventual end product of this Scandinavia DLC. It will be Sweden focused, and will end up attracting gamer ire when it turns out Finland focii either don't work properly with the Soviet ones, or end up actually breaking them. And it will be released at the earliest a year from now, when the game is over six years old already.

 

[pheonicia]

Hey, a person can still dream, can't they? As they say in the Southeast USA (where I live): "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt"

Yeah, it's also a reason to go see a therapist.

(I wanted to use one of the emotes here but I can't hit any of the buttons on mobile? Like I can't italicize it bold or anything.)

 

[goodcigar]

Um I'm sorry but they need to at least do some basic work on Finland for this expansion that is supposedly about the Eastern Front. Like putting in the Continuation War and telling the Finland AI to not invade past a certain point.

 

[DilberDD]

People should look at the claim "it makes sense to combine Finland with the three Scandic countries in a single pack" critically.

What sense does it make? I have not seen a single credible reason so far. What important interactions, WW2 related, did Finland have with those countries in the 1936 - 1948 period, that were more important than her interactions with USSR and Germany? Sure, some aid and some volunteers. Hell, with logic like that make it a combined Finland & Italy pack (Finland got far more value from the Fiat G.50s than she did from the Swedish Gladiators, and Italy too sent rifles, they had torpedo boats operating on Ladoga etc.)

What "cool stuff" is there that makes sense to keep Finland chained to Sweden (and make no mistake, the Scandic pack will be Sweden and Friends in how they prioritize it) rather than the historical countries she interacted with? The Kalmar Union of 1938? Eastern reaches of the Viking Empire? All of this "cool stuff" will be more of the same "zany" alt history meme, built around achievements that Youtubers can create videos around.

From looking back to how the team has communicated on their plans, Finland has apparently been clumped together with Scandinavia since the beginning. Thus the apparent popularity of Turkey decided the matter; since Finland is chained to Sweden, she will only get attention when Sweden gets it. And that order is apparently decided by who shouts the loudest.

Another point that others have already raised is the new game mechanics that are apparently needed for Finland. Are they needed for the famous WW2 combatant Sweden as well? Because from where I'm sitting, the type of fighting Finland engaged in would have the biggest synergies with USSR, not Sweden. And how much attention and money will be allocated to improve the game mechanics in a country pack DLC?

Let's just say I am very skeptical already of the quality of the eventual end product of this Scandinavia DLC. It will be Sweden focused, and will end up attracting gamer ire when it turns out Finland focii either don't work properly with the Soviet ones, or end up actually breaking them. And it will be released at the earliest a year from now, when the game is over six years old already.

Agreed. Norway and especially Finland deserve better than being supporting roles to a Sweden meme DLC.

 

[Spelaren]

People should look at the claim "it makes sense to combine Finland with the three Scandic countries in a single pack" critically.

What sense does it make? I have not seen a single credible reason so far. What important interactions, WW2 related, did Finland have with those countries in the 1936 - 1948 period, that were more important than her interactions with USSR and Germany? Sure, some aid and some volunteers. Hell, with logic like that make it a combined Finland & Italy pack (Finland got far more value from the Fiat G.50s than she did from the Swedish Gladiators, and Italy too sent rifles, they had torpedo boats operating on Ladoga etc.)

What "cool stuff" is there that makes sense to keep Finland chained to Sweden (and make no mistake, the Scandic pack will be Sweden and Friends in how they prioritize it) rather than the historical countries she interacted with? The Kalmar Union of 1938? Eastern reaches of the Viking Empire? All of this "cool stuff" will be more of the same "zany" alt history meme, built around achievements that Youtubers can create videos around.

From looking back to how the team has communicated on their plans, Finland has apparently been clumped together with Scandinavia since the beginning. Thus the apparent popularity of Turkey decided the matter; since Finland is chained to Sweden, she will only get attention when Sweden gets it. And that order is apparently decided by who shouts the loudest.

Another point that others have already raised is the new game mechanics that are apparently needed for Finland. Are they needed for the famous WW2 combatant Sweden as well? Because from where I'm sitting, the type of fighting Finland engaged in would have the biggest synergies with USSR, not Sweden. And how much attention and money will be allocated to improve the game mechanics in a country pack DLC?

Let's just say I am very skeptical already of the quality of the eventual end product of this Scandinavia DLC. It will be Sweden focused, and will end up attracting gamer ire when it turns out Finland focii either don't work properly with the Soviet ones, or end up actually breaking them. And it will be released at the earliest a year from now, when the game is over six years old already.

"
The Swedish contribution to Finland during WW2. Some 8000 Swedish soildiers voulenteered and joined the Finnish cause, forming their own regiments and forces. Allthough not officially a policy the government could publicly announce, the political landscape was rough. Russia and Germany had signed the molotov-ribben pact making Sweden an enemy of Germany if the help was sent officially.

The help sent was MASSIVE though, and often I feel like a bit overlooked. Swedish citizens privatly raised about 500 million Swedish kroner, this was more than the entire Finnish yearly budget. 150000 rifles, hundreds of Bofors antitank guns, hundreds of artillery peices, mines, bombs and machinguns in their thousands we're smuggeled to Finland aswell as planes, ammunition, trucks and supplies, putting a serious dent in Swedens own abilities to ward of an potential attack from Germany if it would ever come. A third of the Swedish Air Force was transfered to Finland during the war years.
While the weapons and troops might have been unoficiall, the humanitarian aid was certainly not. During the war years some 70000 Finnish children we're sent to Sweden to escape the turmoils of the war and taken care of by a system of families offering their homes for those in need. We share a strong bond between us in the Scandinavian countries. Allthough we have fought many bloody wars in the past, in times of hardship we are truly brothers and sisters looking out for eachother. My grandfather was one of these voulenteers and when he was alive told me the stories of the helpless shape the Finnish Army was in at the outbreak of the war. The Finns had for example only 4 antitank guns when the conflict started.
The fact that they managed what they did is a testament to the SISU (Finnish proverb for endurance) this people posses.
I have myself spent about 8 years in the Swedish armed forces and actually fought with Finnish soldiers in Afghanistan on deployment there, the Finns are the best soldiers in the world in my opinion. I have the uttermost respect for Finland and its glorious people. Thank you and sorry for long post, got carried away "
Some gladiators?

 

[APostrofi]

"
The Swedish contribution to Finland during WW2. Some 8000 Swedish soildiers voulenteered and joined the Finnish cause, forming their own regiments and forces. Allthough not officially a policy the government could publicly announce, the political landscape was rough. Russia and Germany had signed the molotov-ribben pact making Sweden an enemy of Germany if the help was sent officially.

The help sent was MASSIVE though, and often I feel like a bit overlooked. Swedish citizens privatly raised about 500 million Swedish kroner, this was more than the entire Finnish yearly budget. 150000 rifles, hundreds of Bofors antitank guns, hundreds of artillery peices, mines, bombs and machinguns in their thousands we're smuggeled to Finland aswell as planes, ammunition, trucks and supplies, putting a serious dent in Swedens own abilities to ward of an potential attack from Germany if it would ever come. A third of the Swedish Air Force was transfered to Finland during the war years.
While the weapons and troops might have been unoficiall, the humanitarian aid was certainly not. During the war years some 70000 Finnish children we're sent to Sweden to escape the turmoils of the war and taken care of by a system of families offering their homes for those in need. We share a strong bond between us in the Scandinavian countries. Allthough we have fought many bloody wars in the past, in times of hardship we are truly brothers and sisters looking out for eachother. My grandfather was one of these voulenteers and when he was alive told me the stories of the helpless shape the Finnish Army was in at the outbreak of the war. The Finns had for example only 4 antitank guns when the conflict started.
The fact that they managed what they did is a testament to the SISU (Finnish proverb for endurance) this people posses.
I have myself spent about 8 years in the Swedish armed forces and actually fought with Finnish soldiers in Afghanistan on deployment there, the Finns are the best soldiers in the world in my opinion. I have the uttermost respect for Finland and its glorious people. Thank you and sorry for long post, got carried away "
Some gladiators?

I do not disparage the aid Sweden and the Swedish people provided to Finland. Sorry if I've given that impression (and I can see how my frustration might make it look like that)!

But the thing is, for all the moral and material aid during the Winter War, the majority of interactions Finland had were with the USSR and Germany. The UK, France, and USA also had important political and aid movements towards Finland, but no-one is ever making claims Finland should be grouped with them... So forgive my impetuous Italy talk (though I stand by my claim of the worth of those Fiats over the Glosters!).

Sweden has a long history, that Paradox loves to highlight in their games. Especially EU4, but also the CK games and Victorias. As is proper, they were an important player on the local and even global scale during that time period.

However. HoI is very warfare centric, and the Nordic country that fought the longest and hardest in WW2 was Finland. And PDX is still prioritising Sweden over her with this decision, when for once it would make sense for another Nordic country to be prioritized higher. But they chose to artificially chain Finland to Sweden (I see no real interactions with Denmark and Norway to be really plausible; they too will end up serving the Sweden alt history in this case) and thus crippled her portrayal in this game. Going five years now, soon to be six.

Please all Swedish fans of these games, excuse mine and other Finns' ire, and hope you can understand our disappointment with the mess HoI team has made.

 

[Áurum]

I think they gave a valid reason - countries works best when it can interact with other countries with it, and Finland has the most interactions with other Nordic states. At least this way it’ll get the most attention as the “star” of the show (compared to Denmark, Norway and Sweden, definitely Iceland)

Finland has the most interactions with the Soviet Union by far. It should be in NSB, there's no possible excuse.

 

[Fulmen]

Some 8000 Swedish soildiers voulenteered and joined the Finnish cause, forming their own regiments and forces. Allthough not officially a policy the government could publicly announce, the political landscape was rough.

Of which 2,600 in the form of two strengthened battalions actually ever reached the front starting 27.2.1940 (the war ended 13.3.1940), being assigned to a quiet sector in Salla. The Continuation War saw 1,694 Swedish volunteers, though most of them went home after the Hanko Front, where they had been assigned to, ended at the end of 1941 with the Russian withdrawal from the Peninsula. The remainder and the few newcomers were formed into a separate company that became a part of Infantry Regiment 13 (JR 13), a part of the 17th Division. As a part of JR 13, the company took part in several battles during the war, including the Battle of Tali-Ihantala (the largest in Nordic history). By comparison the Hanko Front and the two weeks in Lapland during the Winter War had been very quiet.

The help sent was MASSIVE though, and often I feel like a bit overlooked. Swedish citizens privatly raised about 500 million Swedish kroner, this was more than the entire Finnish yearly budget.

I think you're confused here (or the person who wrote what you're copying was): I believe you're referring to the Industria fundraising, which was an effort by the Swedish population to raise money to fund the SFK (Svenska Frivilligkåren - Swedish volunteers in Finland during the Winter War). The value of that was 500 million Finnish marks (FIM), not Swedish crowns (SEK). The income of the Finnish state in 1939 8,335,906,000 FIM using 1939 values, or 3,048,276,654 EUR using 2020 values. The Industria fundraising was 5.99% of this figure.

The value of everything Finland was either gifted or purchased (much of it was paid for, not received for free) from Sweden during the Winter War amounts to 1,470M FIM (not sure what year's values are used here, but I reckon 1940). By comparison, for Italy that value is 790M (though this may include some cancelled purchases), France 600M, England 500M, USA 270M, Hungary 100M, Norway 80M, etc. Note that much of the materiel arrived too late to partake in the Winter War.

150000 rifles, hundreds of Bofors antitank guns, hundreds of artillery peices, mines, bombs and machinguns in their thousands we're smuggeled to Finland aswell as planes, ammunition, trucks and supplies, putting a serious dent in Swedens own abilities to ward of an potential attack from Germany if it would ever come. A third of the Swedish Air Force was transfered to Finland during the war years.

I wonder where those figures come from, it sounds like they might include a bunch of sales after the Winter War.

During the Winter War Sweden gifted sold (with some donations, see also the edit below) Finland 84,000 rifles, 575 machine guns, 85 anti-tank guns, 112 field cannon and howitzers, 104 anti-air cannon and 25 aircraft. There were also 50 million cartridges and 300,000 artillery shells, but this in particular is misleading because 157,000 of those shells were missing fuses, because they had been loaded onto a separate truck. Mysteriously that separate truck arrived only 12.3.1940, a day before the end of the war, when the Swedes already knew the war was ending. It's been speculated the Swedes did this on purpose as a part of their overly cautious neutrality (they did a lot of other similar things that harmed the Finnish effort during the Winter War).

Most of the planes were part of Flying Regiment 19 and flew back to Sweden after the war. FR 19 consisted of 12 Gloster Gladiator Mk. Is, 5 Hawker Hart Mk. Is, two liaison biplanes and one transport/liaison monoplane. Those acquainted with WW2 military aviation will know how antiquated and hopelessly ill-equipped for war these 1920s and early 1930s model aircraft were. FR 19 shot down 8 Russian aircraft, destroyed or claimed another 4 on the ground and lost 6 aircraft (4 from accidents, 2 from dogfights). FR 19 formed the biggest impact the Swedish volunteers had on the Winter War, with the unit being responsible for the airspace over Northern Finland for the last two months of the war.

EDIT from the original post:

Out of the quoted 84,000 rifles, 77,000 were in fact sold to the Finns, not gifted (a number of other sources erroneously claim otherwise). The remaining little under 7,000 came with the SFK and at least 6,000 of them were returned to Sweden after the war, as were over 20,000 of the purchased rifles still in their crates when the war ended. This sets in doubt the whole quoted list of Swedish "donations": how many were in fact sold, not gifted? Without having specifically investigated the matter at the time of writing this, I will note that I've heard they were sold on credit (which at least is far better than demanding payment up front, and probably the source of the claims of them being donations), and that this includes other things, such as 37mm Bofors cannon. If so, it's not unreasonable to believe that most materiel that came to Finland from Sweden was sold on credit, rather than donated.

From Sotilaskäsiaseet Suomessa 1918-1988, Vol. 1 (Military Firearms in Finland 1918-1988, Vol. 1), p. 158, translated by me:

"The fastest bargain was struck with Sweden, with whom connections had been established already before the outbreak of the war. With an agreement made at the beginning of January 1940, 52,000 6.5mm Mauser M/96 rifles and 100 Swedish 6.5mm M/21 LMGs were purchased and delivered already within the same month. In February another 15,000 rifles were purchased and in March a further 10,000. To Finland's fortune, Sweden could afford to hand over such large quantities of rifles out of the country. This was because Sweden's 1925 decision to demilitarize and reduce her armed forces had resulted in a large surplus of rifles left to lie in warehouses.

Although 77,000 rifles were acquired from Sweden during the Winter War according to the statistics of the Finnish Ministry of Defence, in many Swedish sources the reported figure is 84,000. The difference in amount is because the Swedish volunteer force SFK had acquired a separate pool of good armaments through donated funds already in the equipping phase, of which the following weapons were left in Finland after the war:

-6,851 M/96 rifles
-939 M/94 carabines
-204 M/21 LMGs
-40 M/14 HMGs
-858 M/07 pistols
-30 Boys AT rifles

The amount of Swedish infantry rifles however decreased during the spring of 1940, as Finland consequently returned 6,000 of the SFK's rifles, and once peace had come, the remaining unloaded shipments of rifles (altogether over 20,000 rifles).

EDIT: Another source mentions that one Finnish influential citizen, Ragnar Nordström, purchased another 2,000 rifles from Sweden for the Lapland front. The source also mentions that the SFK brought with it 7,900 rifles, and that 31,000 rifles in total were returned (specifying the "over 20,000" to 25,000 and 6,000 SFK rifles). Thus the total amount of Swedish rifles in or travelling to Finland at the end of the Winter War was 86,900 rifles, of which only the above list of SFK armaments left in Finland after the war were essentially donated, though even almost all of that was returned. With the exception of a select few cases, materiel was purchased from Sweden, not received for free."

During the war years some 70000 Finnish children we're sent to Sweden to escape the turmoils of the war and taken care of by a system of families offering their homes for those in need.

72,000 to be precise. But yes, this is correct.

The Finns had for example only 4 antitank guns when the conflict started.

No, the Finnish Army had 112 anti-tank guns 30.11.1939, all were 37mm.

I actually translated the materiel situation of the FDF for 30.11.1939 not long ago from the following page in Talvisodan historia 4, so I might as well paste that here:



254,518 rifles
4,062 LMGs
2,045 HM
4,144 SMGs
18,260 pistols

112x37mm AT guns

12x75mm field cannon
294x76mm field cannon
11x107mm field cannon

72x122mm field howitzers
13x150mm field howitzers
20x152mm field howitzers
174x80-155mm field howitzers without recoil systems (incl. those of the navy and air force)

125x7.62mm AA MGs

34x20mm AA cannon
53x40mm AA cannon (+ another 16 in the navy)
38x75-76mm AA cannon (+ another 25 in the navy)

 

[Ethereld]

It might be my lack of access to material about Finnish history, but could someone provide examples of this wonderful and rich interactions Finland had with the USSR besides shooting each other in two wars (one already represented in the game)?

After 1936 we had the diplomatic attempts initiated by Boris Yartsev who telephoned the finnish foreing minister in 1938 and started a series of talks that amounted to absolutely nothing. First because the Finnish outlined their desire to adhere to the nordic policy of neutrality, second they also denied Soviet participation in the fortification/arming efforts of Aland which was a project Finland was heading in cooperation with Sweden and they also rejected the creation of a Soviet military base on Suursaari. After that Soviet request became more bold until in 1939 they practically offered Finland the same deal they offered to the Baltic Nations, all quite unilateral.

In the meantime Finland had open military cooperation with Estonia. they also had military projects with Sweden on the militarization of Aland in accordance with the League of Nations mandate, not to mention the heavy material help Sweden provided Finland during the Winter War. The entire foreing policy of Finland was based on the Scandinavian precept of neutrality and they rejected both German and Soviet offers of cooperation before the WInter War based on they adherence on these principles.

I am dissapointed as the next guy by not having a finnish focus tree in Barbarossa, but I think people here and overstimating the involvement Finland had with the USSR and Germany before the Winter War and underestimating the extremely close relations and degree of cooperation Finland had with the rest of the Nordic Countries + Estonia.

The Winter War is already represented in the game and to improve it you need new mechanics not a focus tree (the tree would only bring more flavour to finnish military preparation) and the Continuation War could be represented by a set of two decisions, one to declare war on the USSR when Barbarossa starts and one to offer Petsamo and Salla in exchange of peace.

 

[fosso]

In light of these news, i think they should leave out the Soviet Union so that we can have a Mongolian focus tree with OP cavalry leady by Genghis Khan

 

[Dwkisshowerless]

These new focus tree's feel like an eu4 game instead of hoi4

 

[Fulmen]

It might be my lack of access to material about Finnish history, but could someone provide examples of this wonderful and rich interactions Finland had with the USSR besides shooting each other in two wars (one already represented in the game)?

After 1936 we had the diplomatic attempts initiated by Boris Yartsev who telephoned the finnish foreing minister in 1938 and started a series of talks that amounted to absolutely nothing. First because the Finnish outlined their desire to adhere to the nordic policy of neutrality, second they also denied Soviet participation in the fortification/arming efforts of Aland which was a project Finland was heading in cooperation with Sweden and they also rejected the creation of a Soviet military base on Suursaari. After that Soviet request became more bold until in 1939 they practically offered Finland the same deal they offered to the Baltic Nations, all quite unilateral.

In the meantime Finland had open military cooperation with Estonia. they also had military projects with Sweden on the militarization of Aland in accordance with the League of Nations mandate, not to mention the heavy material help Sweden provided Finland during the Winter War. The entire foreing policy of Finland was based on the Scandinavian precept of neutrality and they rejected both German and Soviet offers of cooperation before the WInter War based on they adherence on these principles.

I am dissapointed as the next guy by not having a finnish focus tree in Barbarossa, but I think people here and overstimating the involvement Finland had with the USSR and Germany before the Winter War and underestimating the extremely close relations and degree of cooperation Finland had with the rest of the Nordic Countries + Estonia.

The Winter War is already represented in the game and to improve it you need new mechanics not a focus tree (the tree would only bring more flavour to finnish military preparation) and the Continuation War could be represented by a set of two decisions, one to declare war on the USSR when Barbarossa starts and one to offer Petsamo and Salla in exchange of peace.

Finnish foreign policy before the Winter War was indeed a Scandinavian orientation. The idea was that solidarity between the Nordic countries would protect them from invasion by Great Powers. This fell apart when Finland was invaded and none of the other Nordic countries intervened to help. This despite the fact that the Finnish and Swedish military had contingency plans for an actual Swedish intervention, but the political will on Sweden's part simply was not there. Of course not long after that Denmark and Norway fell, leaving just Finland and Sweden. There were still Finno-Swedish talks of a defence pact and even a temporary political union (even a Swedish-led personal union was suggested by some) but this all fell apart because Moscow and Berlin both objected to it. See also my post here.

The so-called Yartsev negotiations were on some level a lead-up to the Moscow negotiations in autumn 1939. Of course they were not as bold and demanding, because Russia had not yet signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact with Germany, which gave them the green light to take Finland over without threat of German intervention (as long as France was standing, anyway). So you had that.

Then had Finland accepted Stalin's demands for territory in 1939, the likely outcome would have been a postponed war until the summer of 1940, when Stalin would have come for the rest of the country. In my opinion it's quite possible Finland would not have survived this alternate "Summer War", as opposed to how she survived the Winter War: maimed but alive. Why? Because accepting the 1939 demands would have severely weakened Finland's defence (it would have meant that the Mannerheim Line would have needed to be abandoned) and the international situation had changed dramatically by then (it was the threat of Allied intervention that got Stalin to sign peace in March 1940, postponing his planned Finnish conquest; this threat would not have been there in mid-1940). And of course we can't ignore that for the most part "General Winter" was still on the side of the Finns, even if winter did mean considerably more mobility for the Russian armoured and mechanised forces, in Southeastern Finland in particular. So we have heavy involvement with Russia there either way, whether the Finns accept or don't accept Stalin's demands in the fall of 1939.

Then what about the Interim Peace of 1940-41? Well, that saw increased Russian demands, e.g. more territory, de facto war reparations, despite them not being a part of the peace treaty, control over Finnish nickel in Petsamo (not granted), forcing the Finns to build railroads that could only serve a military purpose for the Russians to occupy Finland, etc., meddling in domestic Finnish affairs through organising and funding a communist fifth column, constantly increasing political pressure, the denying of a Finno-Swedish defensive bloc, and so on. All this is what drove Finland to seek aid from Germany, as it was the only remaining source of help. By contrast Finno-Swedish interaction during this timeframe was basically limited to the aforementioned negotiations of mutual defence, some materiel purchases and Sweden funding the construction of the Finnish Salpa-line by 20% of its cost. That's about it.

Well what about after WW2? Well, again, it's pretty much just Russia, now that Germany was out of the picture. Heavy war reparations, complying with the demands of the Allied Control Commission (read: Soviet, as it consisted practically entirely of Russians, with only some 3-5 Brits), avoiding giving any excuse to the Russians to occupy the country while also avoiding the possibility of a communist coup. The Russian-backed communists had positioned themselves in a number of positions of power, including effectively taking over the State Police, making the threat of a Russian-backed coup very tangible. They were successfully removed from key positions by President Paasikivi and Fagerholm's SDP-led minority government in 1948, and the State Police was abolished and reformed under another name. Collectively this era of 1944-48 is referred to in Finnish historiography as the "Years of Danger" (Vaaran vuodet). Beyond trade and returning children sent to the other Nordics for safety during the war, there's very little interaction here with the other Nordic countries that could be somehow translated into the game.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

@Fulmen ... I've seen one of your past mods. Have you considered making a Finland focus tree?

 

[Arilou]

Honeslty, I think whether Finland should be in the scandinavian on USSR pack kinda misses the point. You can make arguments for either.

The problem is that FInland has not recieved a tree in 5 years. THAT is the problem. You could have stuck it in this expansion, heck, stick it in the battle for the Bosphorus for all I care, but give them a tree. Had the scandinavian pack come before the USSR pack and Finland not gotten a tree in that one the problem would have been the same (though uh... obviously that would have mean something that was more wrong) Not sticking FInland into the first pack that could justify it is the problem, not whether or not it should be in the scandi or ussr pack.

Making baltic trees, heck, even redoing the admittedly outdated polish tree (which at least was a tree!) before doing Finland shows a horrible lack of priorities.

 

[Viljainen]

Somehow, there is never a shortage of dev resources to design meme focus trees for countries that didnt even participate in the war like Portugal or were annexed before the war started.

 

[saltypretzell]

It sucks not getting Finland and probably having to wait 8months to a year to get a Scandinavia dlc sucks too but it seems pretty logical to me.

the fact of the matter is a Soviet rework needs a huge amount of work and it’s focus should be on ww2 as maybe the most important front from a gameplay perspective in the game. The winter war is awesome but with it moved to a Scandinavia dlc it’ll be the main war focus for an entire dlc.

plus. If that dlc was just Denmark, Sweden, and Norway let’s be honest, it’s pretty lame. Sweden wasn’t in the war so for most games if they are ai they still just sit there and do nothing. For the vast majority of players they will get stomped by the Germans playing as Denmark. Leaving just Norway as a solid country that’ll be involved in every ww2 and not get immediately capitulated. Doesn’t sound like a solid marketing argument for a dlc to me. Adding Finland to make it 4 new countries plus the winter war makes it a lot easier of a sell.

 

[Fulmen]

@Fulmen ... I've seen one of your past mods. Have you considered making a Finland focus tree?

I have considered it, yes, and I've done work on Finland using Kartsa's Finnish focus tree as a template, primarily for my own MP mod, though I still need to publish the update, and for the Ultra mod. I believe the test version of Ultra has the most updated version of my work that's available to the public, but they're in the process of redoing how the industry and manpower works, which currently results in some weird things like no manpower, so I don't think it's playable at the moment.

Honestly though I'm not really satisfied with the tree, as it's lacking in several areas. I should probably just do my own tree from scratch, but I'm not sure I have the motivation to do it when I know the game will fall short of modelling the Finnish wars in WW2 anyway (as a "plane guy" it particularly vexes me how the historical air war just isn't possible at all: you can't have the VVS outnumber the FAF 20-24:1 and still have the latter air force get a KLR of 7-8:1, as the numbers were in the Winter War). I was hoping PDX doing FIN for this DLC would have meant that I can just sit back and wait, do research, and then tweak their work after it releases. But now that looks a long way off, so I guess I'll return to modding sooner rather than later.

 

[Ethereld]

@Fulmen I totally understand and agree that the Scandinavian involment with Finland was limited to the signed paper and on practice was extremely limited kinda like the Western Powers left Czechoslovakia alone in Munich despite all the guarantees and promises previously given.

But on gameplay terms a decent Finnish rework has to represent this, not only give the option for Finland to choose Scandinavian neutrality or align itself with Germany/Russia, but in the historical path you need a rework of the other Nordic countries so they can decide if to support Finland to the utmost or leave Finland alone agaisnt the USSR to keep neutrality.

The actions of the later were mostly unilateral so they can be represented in the Soviet Focus Tree without the need of a Finnish rework.

What worries me is the Finnish-Estonian military cooperation. Not only because of their common defence plans but secretly the Estonians provided a great deal of intelligence to the Finnish during the Winter War. But having both in separate DLC will probably mean that the cooperation will not be as good as it should.

 

[Aubrey]

“We share a strong bond between us in the Scandinavian countries.”

When I was growing up, my dad’s business partner was a Norwegian who (like so many others) was part of the Norwegian resistance. His “bond” with the Swedes was not nearly so brotherly nor so warm as you make out. Sweden may view itself as Scandinavia’s own Nordic Arsenal of Democracy, but the other countries in the region don’t necessarily feel the same.

 

[Fulmen]

Not only because of their common defence plans but secretly the Estonians provided a great deal of intelligence to the Finnish during the Winter War.

Doesn't look like there's any content on this. Something like blocking the Gulf of Finland from the Russian Baltic Fleet and confining it to Kronstadt through the use of minefields and coastal battery kill zones, which happened historically in 1941-44 (submarines were blocked as well 1943-44 with a submarine net that ran from Estonia to Finland and was constantly patrolled to prevent breaches), is pretty much completely absent from the game anyway. You could make a weak case for blocking access through heavy use of mines in multiplayer, but it's really not the same thing.

For those that don't know: the secret Finno-Estonian defence co-operation during the 1930s was primarily about this plan to block the Russian navy from most of the Baltic Sea, thus considerably limiting the danger to Finnish and Estonian shipping, as well as of naval invasions and other seaborne threats. There's a Finnish Wikipedia article on it here, if someone wants to use their browser's translator and check it out.

This is about defences built by 1917, so it's missing some coastal batteries, but I think it illustrates quite well what I'm talking about:



Here's a couple of others, also about defences in 1917:




And here's a map of minefields in the Gulf of Finland 1941-44, with the submarine net marked as well ("Sukellusveneverkko 1943").