European powers didn't outright conquer Chinese lands. so will we finally be able to lease/buy colonies from china? Personally I think this is needed, or atleast some special event for Portugal so they can get Macau which i think was the only major European port in China at this time.
Leasing Chinese colonies?
- Thread starter murlocmancer
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Anything beyond Macau-level stuff it outside of the game's time period. It'd be good enough to give a port to whatever European trading power finds its way there first. Which will almost always be Portugal.
Though it might be better to represent such things with a provincial modifier. Perhaps give a bonus to trade value of the province, an increase in trade route draw to the European leasee, a small leasing fee, and permanent naval access in that province.
Though it might be better to represent such things with a provincial modifier. Perhaps give a bonus to trade value of the province, an increase in trade route draw to the European leasee, a small leasing fee, and permanent naval access in that province.
Yes, this kind of thing should be done through trade modifiers and the like rather than any actual on-the-map presence (unless they bring back trade posts).
Macao is just far too small to represent otherwise.
Macao is just far too small to represent otherwise.
The problem with Nagasaki is that the Portuguese, Dutch and Spanish were allowed to build a port there and trade with the Japanese, but they didn't own the village or the Hizen province. So giving them the province in EU would be too much.
Macao is only 30 square km. For comparison other provinces with their sizes are Gibraltar (6), Malta (300), Luxembourg (2500), Crete (8300) & Taiwan (36000).
Macao isn't the normal size of a province, but they made it a province in EU3 because they wanted to be able to represent small things which made a big difference. I'd say if events/decisions/modifers can do it then that would be more natural than creating a wrong sized province.
And for comparison Dejima in Nagasaki was on the order of 100x100 meters, in total less than 0.01 sq km.
Having Portugal own land adyacent to Japan would give them a Holy War or Imperialism CB, making Portugal eat up Japan 7 out of 10 games. The difference with Macau is that China steamrolls any foreign invasion with doomstacks.
Even smaller than that in the EU timeframe, actually. The Portuguese originally only leased the Macao peninsula, but took advantage of China's post-Opium War weakness to seize additional territory. So they controlled less than 3 square km. of territory before the 19th century.
(Doesn't address your larger point, I know.)
I usually get Hainan in a peace settlement with China, but not earlier than the 17th Century because, before that, the tech gap doesn't make the few tens of thousands of soldier I can muster across the sea a viable competitor to China's impressive manpower. After that, you only need to keep a naval force in the Hainan straight to keep the Chinese at bay.
After 1634 thats true, but for the first hundred years they owned the whole city.
Portugal never owned Nagasaki. Portuguese merchants and Jesuits had their headquarters and strongest influence there.
Right. Omura Sumitada donated the Jesuits the land around the Nagasaki port in 1580. However this ownership had continued only few years because Hideyoshi didn't like this situation that a foreign power had a piece of his Japan.
Indeed, and there's a world of difference between a religious order owning lands inside a city to a European nation controlling and occupying an entire city.
As for the Jesuits, it would be great if their Asian missionaries could be represented in game. They were militant against other Christian confessional groups and the Muslims, but tolerant and flexible enough for the missions among the Asian cultures. It was proven by their reports and by some disputations about the way of the missions between the Christian religious orders such as the case in China.
I would very much like to see this along with a similar type of event to model the tail end of Muslim proselytizing in East and Southeast Asia. Having such options or at least opportunities would be quite interesting.