League Cities - What am I missing?

[Syntax_VI]

Was interested to finally try these out whilst playing a heavy mercantile nation like Carthage - but I just don't really get it.

First I have to take a few techs that help tribesmen to get to league cities - ok fair enough, but tribal nations wouldn't really use league cities since you have to build the city first (-50 political influence)

SO then I create a league city, which costs me another -50 political influence and then the promptly begin importing goods from my rival nations (in this case Rome and Egypt).

The concept, I believe, is to create mid/late game trading partners as commerce tends to dry up as smaller nations get gobbled up - but the game does this my restricting league cities EXPORTS, not imports.

I generally don't suffer from a lack of trade goods in the mid/late game, I tend to have a massive surplus with no one to buy them - which would be an ok spot for league cities to fill, but they seem more inclined to trade with my rivals than my nation.

Also, 100 political influence (50 to build the city, 50 to release it) is super hefty. Am I missing some other feature or benefit that they provide?

 

[Torugu]

I've never experimented with them (tough I've been meaning too), so take this with a grain of salt:


I think the purpose is to import rare trade goods while still getting the bonus from international trade.

For example you want to import gold for your capital, but the only available trade routes are from territory that you already own. In this case you could release a trade city from a gold province and still get the full import money (and since they are your subject they should never cancel the trade route).

It's definitely a roleplay feature more than anything else. (If you're playing optimally, you're playing wide. And if you're playing wide there is never a reason to release a territory just to make a few extra coins.) But I think for that purpose they work fine enough.


That said, 50 PI is just way too expensive. Puts it on the long list of cool feature that will never see any play because IR systematically overprices anything that's not part of the core gameplay loop.

 

[scriptkiddy]

50 PI is actually not that much if they wouldn’t also eat up a diplo slot. This way they not only lose their attractiveness to feudatories but also to large client states (and even mercenary states).

 

[Torugu]

50 PI is actually not that much if they wouldn’t also eat up a diplo slot. This way they not only lose their attractiveness to feudatories but also to large client states (and even mercenary states).

Yeah, if they were free, unlimited Feudatory then 50 PI would be reasonable. Even strong in some circumstances.

As is though, even at 0 PI they'd barely be worth the invention point investment...

 

[XSamatan]

Are we talking about the special subject type unlocked by the invention "Coloniae" in the civic tree?

Those do not cost a relation slot...


I use them mostly mid/late game when I feel I have enough cities and can profit more from a reliable trading partner then whatever meager tax income a city provides. The PI cost is steep, however with some inventions taken that provide a discount to city creation a league city costs me 87.5 PI - if I have nothing else to do it is an OK investment.
Mainly used to shore up bordergore or for RP reasons.

I do agree however that it is bollocks that this type of subject can trade freely with anyone....even if they have 8+ trade slots lategame, giving 4 slots to the arch-enemy is not WAD (imho).

Regards
XSamatan

 

[scriptkiddy]

Are we talking about the special subject type unlocked by the invention "Coloniae" in the civic tree?

Those do not cost a relation slot...

You’re right, it’s the mercenary state costing one diplo slot not the league city. I‘ll try to make use of them in my current Heracleia Pontica campaign. Too bad you can’t choose their colour upon release just like for the client nations in EU4, this way it gets a bot trickier to maintain nice borders without ugly enclaves.

 

[Ffc]

It's bad just like Colonies, never use it for min-max reasons
No need to thank me for my great knowledge

Vassals need a rework anyway , giving them territories is a pain for exemple and most of them are purely useless

 

[IsaacCAT]

I have been thinking about applying League cities in this case:

I conquer a new province with a non integrated culture with a high ratio of nobles and citizens concentrated in one city. I do not want to integrate that culture but I want to keep the trade routes generated by those citizens. Therefore, I give the city on that province the status of League City.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Finally I have been setting up some league cities and now I have found out another use for them: trade warfare!

I do not trade with my future enemies any goods, and because of that I need to secure the supply of certain goods for my capital province surplus and other provinces strategic supplies. For that I create league cities in territories that produce this type of strategic goods:

In this case, wine. It is required for the legion maintenance cost reduction surplus bonus in your capital, and it is one of the freemen happiness trade goods with max value (0.3) along with Base Metals and Dates.

But there is another thing very interesting that has a nice psychological effect on the player: you get to know with who is trading your league city and it makes you want to conquer the bastards!

In this case my league city of Menturia is importing wood, wine, salt and dyes from Carthage! And they only import one line of wine from me. This is unacceptable! I am going to declare on Carthage for those Dyes and the other trades of course.

I have already identified where those dyes come from. This is not going to last:

 

[IsaacCAT]

Finally I have been setting up some league cities and now I have found out another use for them: trade warfare!

I do not trade with my future enemies any goods, and because of that I need to secure the supply of certain goods for my capital province surplus and other provinces strategic supplies. For that I create league cities in territories that produce this type of strategic goods:

In this case, wine. It is required for the legion maintenance cost reduction surplus bonus in your capital, and it is one of the freemen happiness trade goods with max value (0.3) along with Base Metals and Dates.

View attachment 708561

But there is another thing very interesting that has a nice psychological effect on the player: you get to know with who is trading your league city and it makes you want to conquer the bastards!

In this case my league city of Menturia is importing wood, wine, salt and dyes from Carthage! And they only import one line of wine from me. This is unacceptable! I am going to declare on Carthage for those Dyes and the other trades of course.

View attachment 708564

I have already identified where those dyes come from. This is not going to last:

View attachment 708565

Mission accomplished, and ofc I have made Carthage a League City, we want to keep those nobles trading and loyal:

 

[Greyhand]

Doing some theorycrafting:

League Cities receive +2 Capital Import Routes baseline as well as -4 Slaves needed for Local Surplus. This would make them interesting wherever you have a high value trade good and a modifier to production and/or trade. Since League Cities count as their own country, they will generate money and influence independently, but, given the fact they are restricted to one territory, they will use these resources to gradually improve it. That means you can take a crappy territory with a high value trade good you can't be bothered to improve, slap a city on it and make it a League City. In Arabia, for instance, there are several desert territories with arid climate and incense or gemstones. Furthermore, territories with the Mountain Pass modifier receive extra trade routes and usually have a crappy population cap as well making them prime locations. Even better, League Cities will always have a fortress to defend their one capital territory, but, they don't count towards your fortress cap, meaning you can have your League Cities block important mountain passes and still have a (cheap) fortress on the province capital. Since they will take whatever culture is present in the respective territory, this can also allow you to get around integration/assimilation/conversion troubles.

The main problem remains their cost. 200 gold plus 100 political influence (without discounts on founding cities) is a lot for something that seems very much like a long term investment. Even worse, you have to spend 4 innovations to reach Coloniae (one of which you would spend anyways to get into the right civic tree, so it's more like 3). Two of these are completely useless as a non-tribal country and as a tribe, you'd rather spend your innovations on other things.

Side Note: Building a Foundry before making a city a League City would give them a -8 Slaves needed for Local Surplus, an additional -1 through an invention, leaving them at -9. If you also built them Mills, they could keep quite a few slaves (coming at a higher cost).

 

[IsaacCAT]

The main problem remains their cost. 200 gold plus 100 political influence (without discounts on founding cities)

You have not considered the most benefitial case: the city is already existing and you found the league city after conquering it to keep the nobles and the international trade route ‘export’ good bonus.

How do you cost compare it to assimilate all the nobles or integrate another culture to keep the trade routes? In some cases is impossible, as you loose the international trade bonus and you have to trade domestically without the trade league city. League cities are mandatory as the game is now.

 

[Greyhand]

You have not considered the most benefitial case: the city is already existing and you found the league city after conquering it to keep the nobles and the international trade route ‘export’ good bonus.

How do you cost compare it to assimilate all the nobles or integrate another culture to keep the trade routes? In some cases is impossible, as you loose the international trade bonus and you have to trade domestically without the trade league city. League cities are mandatory as the game is now.

Let me theorycraft a bit for the best case scenario with the points you brought up:

One immediate gain is the fact that you do not have to worry about province loyalty, the city retains at least some more of their nobles and citizens than it would otherwise, you get a trading partner for international trade routes which give you more money than domestic ones.

The price is 50 political influence, a city lost, and 4 innovations.

While this naturally looks a lot better than the worst case (after all, it's the worst case), this best case scenario just like the worst case scenario still has some issues. The parts of the map where you actually have cities (there are far more city-less territories than there are city territories) are restricted to a select few areas (e.g. Greece, Egypt, Babylon). As someone playing in Iberia, Gaul, Britannia or Germania for instance, this best case will rarely if ever occur. Furthermore, having a trading partner for international trade routes usually only becomes an issue after reaching a certain size or when you are very isolated (e.g. at the edge of the map). Additionally, if you are small and/or have a small primary culture, you'd rather invest into assimilation, conversion, and integration for future military traditions to build up a power base (colonies from the cultural decisions tab prioritise cities, which you'd lose when releasing them as League Cities). On top of that, you also lose 50 political influence, which is a lot. There are many things you can spend those influence points on, most of which seem more interesting than League Cities at first glance (i.e. claims, stability, loyalty, legitimacy, etc.). Lastly, spending the 4 innovations necessary is quite costly early on. Most of the time, better siege, discipline, trade, character loyalty, etc. are taking care of more immediate concerns and are, thus, more valuable.

Taking the best and worst case together, then, it seems as though League Cities are most interesting once you have reached mid-game, have a sizable realm, and are finding it hard to get international trade routes for specific goods you'd like in your capital or your non-capital provinces find no one to sell their goods to. Maybe the Diadochoi, Rome, Carthage or Maurya would reach this stage rather quickly. If we are looking at isolated places or at other very specific instances, maybe smaller realms would profit much from League Cities, too, even early in the game.

 

[Akbar The Great]

Hmm, I'd like to implement this is in my Egypt game, thsose desert outposts with gemstones etc look ideal - but the cost? 100 PI is too much, the gold is no problem - i'm very happy not painting everything blue (I cannot play Egypt with that horrible map colour, so use a mod) - and I like having the vassal swarm and different kinds of dependencies, it's makes for a more interesting Empire and one more respresentative of the times.

 

[IsaacCAT]

Hmm, I'd like to implement this is in my Egypt game, thsose desert outposts with gemstones etc look ideal - but the cost? 100 PI is too much, the gold is no problem - i'm very happy not painting everything blue (I cannot play Egypt with that horrible map colour, so use a mod) - and I like having the vassal swarm and different kinds of dependencies, it's makes for a more interesting Empire and one more respresentative of the times.

If you play tall you can save PI by scheme:influence, putting loyal people on the government and researching all the PI generating technologies.

Do not waste it in stability stabbing pigs either, if you play tall, no need to counter AE.

Do not waste your PI in useless claims. You can expand easily enough with diplomacy: alliance + client state (feudatory) and integration.

I would like the AI to be more aggressive and attack me more. This way I would be able to expand militarly too.

Other way to obtain free claims is using missions. I think the generic ones always target a region to expand and give you free CB.