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Dibo

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Originally posted by Lunar
Well the Germans in WW2 had some very talented officers. Whether Bulgaria had god-like commanders or miserable ones wouldn't really have done much to affect them losing once they joined the Central Powers.

Experienced commanders do make a difference however.

What is the God like status in mine Bulgarian list? Only 14 out of 85 has skill of 3 and above and most are 2 or 1. If you want this so much lower them down by 1 skill level.
 

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Originally posted by Lunar
None of them do, I wasn't trying to say they did. I was just saying it wouldn't affect the outcome of the war if they did.

To come to the defence of the Bulgarians, the recent Balkan wars are as close as you can get to the Great War. I don't think the war in the Balkans during the Great War was radically different from the wars which had preceeded it. The same armies and the same generals were involved largely fighting the same war. I would suggest, however, no more than 20 experience. That simply pays lip service to the recent experience.

The other problem is what about all the others? Serbia, Greece, Romania? Even the Ottomans? I am not so sure all the protagonists 'learned' all that much from those wars.
 

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Originally posted by Kaiser Bill
To come to the defence of the Bulgarians, the recent Balkan wars are as close as you can get to the Great War. I don't think the war in the Balkans during the Great War was radically different from the wars which had preceeded it. The same armies and the same generals were involved largely fighting the same war. I would suggest, however, no more than 20 experience. That simply pays lip service to the recent experience.

The other problem is what about all the others? Serbia, Greece, Romania? Even the Ottomans? I am not so sure all the protagonists 'learned' all that much from those wars.

OK, let it be 20 :)
As I said the same experience should be applied to Serbia, Montenegro and Greece. Romania did not fight at all during the Balkan wars - Romanians simply marched into Bulgaria in 1913 with no forces opposing them. Ottomans are a difficult issue - some of them no doubt gained quite a lot of experience, but as 1915 many leaders were replaced in comparison with 1912, so it is difficult to say.
 
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Dibo

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Bulgarian Air and Naval Leaders

Petrov;3;0;2;20;Medium;2;Petrov_Simeon
Milkov;3;0;2;20;Medium;2;Milkov_Radul
Tarakchiev;3;0;1;20;Medium;2;Tarakchiev_Prodan
Bogdanov;3;0;1;10;Medium;2;Bogdanov_Nikifor
Sakelarov;3;0;1;20;Medium;2;Sakelarov_Dimitar
Zlatarov;2;0;2;30;Medium;2;Zlatarov_Vassil

See:
http://www.geocities.com/bulgarian_aviation/history/wwi.htm

*Dobrev;3;0;2;30;Medium;1;Dobrev_Dobri
Krikov;2;0;0;0;High;1;Kirkov_Konstantin
Serafimov;3;0;1;0;Low;1;Serafimov_Rashko
Draganov;3;0;1;10;Medium;1;Draganoc_Lazar
 

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I think experience ratings of twenty are fair. For now, perhaps we ought to wait until we can test Bulgaria's performance in the game to decide how important the skill of their leaders are.
 

unmerged(8915)

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i know im new, and im just browsing but a lot of the ppl participating seem to be incapable of self-censorship. im sorry, but having (what looks like) a 100 bulgarian leaders is a little too much. if you want to keep it that detailed, it will take forever - what of bigger armies? will you have 1000 russian commanders, or 2000 german commanders?!

in any case, the head of the proeject (if there is one) should step in and moderate such outrageous plans. because it will only end in dissapointment. members that have large amount of info should instead focus on further nations that need research. if you want to create a "super-bulgaria" alteryour own files once you get the mod

i think having a 100 german commanderes will be more than enough. remember, it has to be balanced.

the only reason im poking around is that i think this is a splendid project and i cant wait for it to reach completion. im only worried it will go the way of AoN - great plans, but it was such a mouthful paradox came up with a game (victoria) by the time they reached beta. :(
 

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Originally posted by Ladislav
i know im new, and im just browsing but a lot of the ppl participating seem to be incapable of self-censorship. im sorry, but having (what looks like) a 100 bulgarian leaders is a little too much. if you want to keep it that detailed, it will take forever - what of bigger armies? will you have 1000 russian commanders, or 2000 german commanders?!

in any case, the head of the proeject (if there is one) should step in and moderate such outrageous plans. because it will only end in dissapointment. members that have large amount of info should instead focus on further nations that need research. if you want to create a "super-bulgaria" alteryour own files once you get the mod

i think having a 100 german commanderes will be more than enough. remember, it has to be balanced.

the only reason im poking around is that i think this is a splendid project and i cant wait for it to reach completion. im only worried it will go the way of AoN - great plans, but it was such a mouthful paradox came up with a game (victoria) by the time they reached beta. :(

Well I'm heading the project for the moment, and I think you're overreacting a little. The mod is being created by a core of dedicated users whilst accepting the contributions of others. Dibo's Bulgarian leaders list that you are referring to, will, in due course be edited, tweaked and fine-tuned until it is suitable.

The fact that one contributor has produced a prestigious list of Bulgarian commanders doesn't mean that we are all wasting time by trawling the internet, books etc just so that Siam, Ecuador or Nicaragua can have 75 realistic military leaders.

In any case, we will ensure that the number of leaders that each country has is roughly in proportion with the relative sizes of the same country's army, navy, or, in the case of the United States, potential to create a large armed force. To this end, Germany, Russia etc will have larger leader lists than Bulgaria.

Apart from that, please don't judge the entire project's progress by simply looking at the initial work of one team member.
 

Dibo

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Originally posted by Ladislav
i know im new, and im just browsing but a lot of the ppl participating seem to be incapable of self-censorship. im sorry, but having (what looks like) a 100 bulgarian leaders is a little too much. if you want to keep it that detailed, it will take forever - what of bigger armies? will you have 1000 russian commanders, or 2000 german commanders?!

in any case, the head of the proeject (if there is one) should step in and moderate such outrageous plans. because it will only end in dissapointment. members that have large amount of info should instead focus on further nations that need research. if you want to create a "super-bulgaria" alteryour own files once you get the mod

i think having a 100 german commanderes will be more than enough. remember, it has to be balanced.

the only reason im poking around is that i think this is a splendid project and i cant wait for it to reach completion. im only worried it will go the way of AoN - great plans, but it was such a mouthful paradox came up with a game (victoria) by the time they reached beta. :(


As I said many times in the previous posts - my Bulgarian list will of course be shortened a lot by this project leaders. What I have merely done is to offer them a choice of Leaders. Never had I stated that Bulgaria should have 100 leaders. I'm just proposing real Generals that fought in the 850 thousand strong Bulgarian army during WW1. As Bulgarian participation in the war is relatively unknown I have also assigned skills to them as most of these leaders are completely unknown outside Bulgaria. I realize that my list could create a lot of discussion regarding size, skills, etc. - but remember this is just a proposal. And deleting Leaders has been always the easier part. Try finding them
:rolleyes:
 

Dibo

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Speaking of Self-Censorship I also have pictures of 6 Bulgarians that fought as Generals (Major-Generals and Lieutenant-Generals) in the Russian army in WW1. I will not post them however if you have enough Russians and don't need more suggestions for their file.
 

unmerged(16020)

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Originally posted by Ladislav


i think having a 100 german commanderes will be more than enough. remember, it has to be balanced.

Regular HoI has 547 German commanders in total. It's close to 1 am so I can't quite remember whether The Great War mod will be having more troops or less, but I think you're wrong when you say that 100 is more than enough. Of course, I'm not saying Bulgaria should have more than 100, just saying the Germans probably should.

Dibo's done a great Bulgarian list, not much to complain about. The leaders aren't that powerful, but there are probably a tad too few. The ones with the worst quality pictures, or the ones without any pictures at all, will very likely be cut at the final stage of the project after some initial testing to find out how many. I wouldn't worry about it.
 

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11 Dutch leaders. Six land commanders, five naval commanders.

Name;ID;Country;Rank;Traits;Skill;Experience;Loyalty;Type;Picture;x
Snijders;37060;HOL;1;2;3;0;4;0;snijders_cj_hol;x
Thiange;37061;HOL;1;0;3;0;4;0;unknown;x
Cool;37062;HOL;2;0;3;0;4;0;unknown;x
Sabron;37063;HOL;2;0;3;0;4;0;sabron_frederik_hol;x
Wels;37064;HOL;3;0;3;0;4;0;unknown;x
Le Roy;37065;HOL;3;0;3;0;4;0;unknown;x
Pinke;37066;HOL;2;0;3;0;4;1;unknown;x
Rambonnet;37067;HOL;2;0;3;0;4;1;rambonnet_jj_hol;x
ten Cate;37068;HOL;2;0;3;0;4;1;cate_naudin_ten_hol;x
Wentholt;37069;HOL;2;0;3;0;4;1;unknown;x
Ellis;37070;HOL;2;0;3;0;4;1;unknown;x
 

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Originally posted by Dibo
Speaking of Self-Censorship I also have pictures of 6 Bulgarians that fought as Generals (Major-Generals and Lieutenant-Generals) in the Russian army in WW1. I will not post them however if you have enough Russians and don't need more suggestions for their file.

Would be greatly appreciated, could you e-mail them to me please!

Also, where they Imperial Russians or Soviets?

On the subject of trimming lists, it would be very premature to make comments about reduction in lists when we still have only around the 100 mark for the majors, far less for Russia. When we have more complete list we can give the idea some thought, and if there is a heavy bias towards a minor we might have to reduce them. The best solution must be, surely, to increase the lists of the others.
 

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Originally posted by Kaiser Bill
Would be greatly appreciated, could you e-mail them to me please!

Also, where they Imperial Russians or Soviets?

On the subject of trimming lists, it would be very premature to make comments about reduction in lists when we still have only around the 100 mark for the majors, far less for Russia. When we have more complete list we can give the idea some thought, and if there is a heavy bias towards a minor we might have to reduce them. The best solution must be, surely, to increase the lists of the others.

In 1887, after the unsuccessful pro-russian military coup that ousted Alexander I from Bulgaria, some of the officers emigrated to Russia and there joined the army, gaining in time the rank of general. Also after the disaster in 1913, and the already clear policy of Ferdinand I for joining the Central Powers, many disgruntled generals, including some of the best in the Bulgarian army, emigrated to Russia and joined the Russian army there. They all fought in WW1 and nearly all of them were killed during the Revolution and the Civil war. AFAIK none joined the Red army, but only a few were in the White army too. Most of them were simply shot during the turmoils...

Will post them and mail them tonight :)
 

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Just been reading a book on the Russian Civil War, and here are the generals named in it. All are land leaders unless otherwise noted.

SOVIETS

Muraviev (low loyalty - he was an SR, not a Bolshevik)
Antonov-Ovseenko
Vacietis (Latvian, later C-in-C of the Red Army)
Voroshilov
S. Kamenev (replaced Vacietis as C-in-C)
Selivachev
Budyenny (cavalry leader)
Ordzhonikidne
Mironov (cavalry leader, and low loyalty)

Hill - Director of Aviation for the Red air force. He was a British military attaché, and went over to the Whites once the Civil War started.

RUSSIA

Krasnov (cavalry leader)
Kornilov (supreme commander, killed early in the war)
Denikin (Kornilov's replacement)
Wrangel (a skillful general - made good use of British-supplied tanks to capture Stalingrad^WTsaritsyn)
Kaledin (low-ranking)
Alekseev
Mai-Maevskii (better-than-average general)
Kudinov (cavalry leader)
Mamontov (cavalry leader)
Lukomskii

Also Yudenitch, who fought in the North around Petrograd - but perhaps for playability reasons he should be made an Estonian leader.

SIBERIA

Lebedev (quite skillful; highest rank)
Boldyrev
Voitsekhovskii
Kappel (army leader)
Gajda (commander of the Czech Legion, Siberia's elite troops)
Khanzhin (army leader)
Rogovskii

Kolchak - admiral (former commander of the Black Sea Fleet) and also self-appointed Supreme Ruler of Russia (he was not a modest man).
 

StephenT

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Forgot to add, these are the Makhnovist leaders:

Makhno (excellent guerrilla leader, low-ranking but high skill with logistics, trickster traits)
Glazunov

Could anybody with a better knowledge of the region suggest a name for Makhno's "country"? I have seen the word "Makhnovshchina" used in reference to him - could a Russian-speaker explain what that means?

What I have been able to find out is that he ruled through a "Regional Congress of Soviets", he was an anarchist, his troops were called the "Revolutionary Insurgent Army", he started out as a rebel against the German occupation, controlled most of eastern Ukraine at his most powerful, fought as an ally with the Communists against the Russian White armies only to have the Bolsheviks turn on him once the Whites were defeated, and he used a plain black flag.
 

Halibutt

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Originally posted by StephenT
Forgot to add, these are the Makhnovist leaders:

Makhno (excellent guerrilla leader, low-ranking but high skill with logistics, trickster traits)
Glazunov

Could anybody with a better knowledge of the region suggest a name for Makhno's "country"? I have seen the word "Makhnovshchina" used in reference to him - could a Russian-speaker explain what that means?

What I have been able to find out is that he ruled through a "Regional Congress of Soviets", he was an anarchist, his troops were called the "Revolutionary Insurgent Army", he started out as a rebel against the German occupation, controlled most of eastern Ukraine at his most powerful, fought as an ally with the Communists against the Russian White armies only to have the Bolsheviks turn on him once the Whites were defeated, and he used a plain black flag.
That's right. Bat'ka (Paternalis) Mahno was the leader of the obnly truely anarhist state in the history of mankind. A great personality and a skilled military leader as well (he managed to fight against both the whites and the reds for some time).

Makhnovshchina or Mahnovshchina (both these transcriptions seem more or less correct) means something like "the land of Mahno". The suffix -shchina is usually attached to toponyms.
Voitsekhovskii
- he was a Pole, swo maybe we could use his original, polish name "Wojciechowski".
(a.k.a. Budennyi, Budionnyi, Budyonny) - should have at most skill 1. His performance during the Crimean and then polish campaigns was catastrophic. The guy achieved limited successes only when he had direct tactical-scale orders from the supreme commanders and had a wish to obey them (which didn't happened that often...).
Cheers
 

Dibo

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Originally posted by Halibutt
(a.k.a. Budennyi, Budionnyi, Budyonny) - should have at most skill 1. His performance during the Crimean and then polish campaigns was catastrophic. The guy achieved limited successes only when he had direct tactical-scale orders from the supreme commanders and had a wish to obey them (which didn't happened that often...).

There is an old soviet joke about Budenny. A few years before his death he visited a nuclear submarine and was quite surprised to find that the subs 100 man crew was commanded by a full rear-admiral. On Budenny's mockery remarks about the quantity of "sabres" under the Rear Admiral's command, the latter replied acidly that he may have only 100 sabres, but he has over 20 000 "horses" (i.e. hp). The startled Marshal remained silent. Two days later the Rear-Admiral recieved an entire train loaded with 80 000 horsehoes - the good old Marshal was concerned about the health of the horses :D :D

But if we speak about the Civil war - the skills there were often substituted by cruelty and determination and Budenny had the last two in large quantities, and he has luck in choosing his subordinates - so perhaps a skill of 2 is more appropriate :confused:
 
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