Leaders survive stack annihilation - bug or feature?

[smn_]

I posted about this earlier in the demo experiences thread but it probably went unnoticed so here we go again..

After several tests it's now clear that leaders always survive when their army is annihilated.

I tested with sending Cristopher Columbus in the middle of Atlantic letting his ships rot away, I tested with converting Bohemias leader to a general and sending him leading a single regiment against the enemy, getting 5 separate armies annihilated and he always survived.

I surely hope it's a bug for it's totally stupid. It's just not feasible that Columbus swims/rows a boat the thousands of nautical miles back home when his boat sinks, it is unbelievable that the enemy kings army is annihilated to the last man several times but the king always escapes.

Making it worse, it's not only a case of suspension of disbelief. In multiplayer this would be a major problem. Trapping and killing the enemy leaders was one of the best points of EU2 MP warfare. It made wars turn around. You're Sweden and Suvorov plows through Finland? Your only hope to survive is to kill the bugger. Now in EU3 killing him just seems to be impossible. Well not impossible but skill and strategy seem to be replaced with pure luck in the equation.

Please tell me, is this a bug or feature?

 

[Moltke]

Well not knowing for sure, but I'd say it's a feature. Besides if you destroyed his army, what are you worried about?

 

[unmerged(64704)]

I sure hope its a bug.

 

[smn_]

Well not knowing for sure, but I'd say it's a feature. Besides if you destroyed his army, what are you worried about?

EU series is famous for making the players split the armies in smaller stacks because of attrition. So he's got several more armies left and recruiting more, and if it's a true superleader I've probably taken 3 times his losses while making the kill.

 

[Duuk]

I like it.

I like it alot. Especially since generals have to be "bought" using tradition.

 

[unmerged(1823)]

intended feature.

(designed after losing yet another 5-5-5 leader to lag before retreat in a major mp game)

 

[Nimic]

So.. leaders can't be killed?

 

[unmerged(64704)]

intended feature.

(designed after losing yet another 5-5-5 leader to lag before retreat in a major mp game)

okay then. that's the final word/

 

[TheMantis]

I think it's better that leaders survive battles like that than to lose leaders for bs reasons.

 

[DaPacemDomine]

This doesn't apply to generals who are monarchs, does it? I've had several experiences where it appears that my own heads of state, and those of my enemies, have died in battle.

 

[unmerged(1823)]

Leaders have random chance to die in combat.

Not just guaranteed cause army surrendered.

 

[Brasidas]

EDIT: Ninja'd by Johan

So.. leaders can't be killed?

My understanding is that they can be killed, they just aren't automatically killed when the stack they lead is wiped out.

Doomsday's leaders have a random chance of being killed each timechange (hours in Doomsday, comparable to days in EU3) while in battle, a mechanism which is probably present in EU3 as well.

 

[Nimic]

Leaders have random chance to die in combat.

Not just guaranteed cause army surrendered.

Ok, sounds good actually. It was always annoying when the leaders were guaranteed to die when you lost a battle. It's not like that was how it was in reality. Generals would often get away, since they usually (atleast often) didn't take part in the actual fighting. I guess you could also argue that Generals that were captured in battle were often ransomed back.

I'm getting more and more excited about EU3 the more we talk about it.. That preorder better arive on monday >.<

 

[smn_]

intended feature.

(designed after losing yet another 5-5-5 leader to lag before retreat in a major mp game)

What can I say?

I'm very disappointed. Slaughtering the enemys leaders were always the best moments of EU2 MP.

Lag was never the real issue, if you lost them due to lag, then you had played badly by risking too much.

 

[Fawr]

For army leaders I understand why you don't want them to allways die (but increased odds would sound reasonable to me). However this example is more worrying for me.

I tested with sending Cristopher Columbus in the middle of Atlantic letting his ships rot away

Appart from any realism concerns, unkillable explorers just sounds like an exploit waiting to happen.

 

[binTravkin]

Appart from any realism concerns, unkillable explorers just sounds like an exploit waiting to happen.

Righty - give him a ship, send off, when he sinks, give another for yet another run, rinse and repeat.
You need nothing more than a single explorer to circumvent the world in a few years..

 

[unmerged(36826)]

What can I say?

I'm very disappointed. Slaughtering the enemys leaders were always the best moments of EU2 MP.

Lag was never the real issue, if you lost them due to lag, then you had played badly by risking too much.

Quite, perhaps a house rule should be added to mp games, if your leader's stack dies then you cannot use him again. Because this sounds just wrong

 

[smn_]

Quite, perhaps a house rule should be added to mp games, if your leader's stack dies then you cannot use him again. Because this sounds just wrong

Sounds like that's needed yes, what a shame.

It's really quite funny, my MP experience was so the opposite, losing a leader with stack annihilation was deserved, losing the leader randomly in battle was the suckiest thing ever. I seriously hope Johan reconsiders this.
Reasoning: Just try killing a good leader from a good warlord like Tonio or King John. It just doesn't happen. It just doesn't.

 

[unmerged(36826)]

Sounds like that's needed yes, what a shame.

It's really quite funny, my MP experience was so the opposite, losing a leader with stack annihilation was deserved, losing the leader randomly in battle was the suckiest thing ever. I seriously hope Johan reconsiders this.
Reasoning: Just try killing a good leader from a good warlord like Tonio or King John. It just doesn't happen. It just doesn't.

Yeah, one of my worst moments in Eu2 MP was losing frederick in his second battle due to random death. That was simply not fun and ruined the game.

On the other hand losing Suvorov to a huge coaltion army in Holland after he marches across Europe and takes down 3X as many enemies in his last glorious battle was one of the better times playing MP.

I am pretty mystified why they would chose to give random chance far more importance than being able to spend time and effort to attrition down an uber leaders stack and finish him off

 

[Snake IV]

I think it is good that leaders do not always die beacasue the army it leads is destroyed. Sure the general would have a possibility to get away, it is not like he had stayed until only he is left. I do hope though that the chance that he dies when the army is eliminated is there, and big enough to be concidered in battle. I belive that if this happeneds in a colonial area, especially in a province not owned by the coutry, or anyone, the risk should be very big, but not total. Admirals should always die though if the fleet is destroyed at open water. As said it makes no sence if an explorer looses his ships far out in the hostile waters of the Pacific, and then after a relaxing weekend once again depatures from Lisbon in another cog.