Leaders - how could they be more interesting?

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Liggi

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Some ideas:

- A drastic increase in the number of traits, positive and negative, so that Leaders are more unique, memorable and interesting. In the same vein, more dynamic traits: admirals / generals may receive unique traits when fighting in wars in various circumstances, rulers may receive traits based on things that happen while they are in charge, faction leaders may gain traits based on events (ie. losing an offensive war may cause the militarist faction leader to become more radical, or the pacifist faction leader to become more vocal).

- Leaders should have ethics.

- Remove the requirement that you have to manually assign Leaders. All positions will be automatically filled by an auto-generated Leader. You can override this selection to a preferred candidate from a much larger Leader Pool using Influence.

- The Leader pool for Governors / Rulers should be expanded, and should be generated in a random, weighted way based on the characteristics of your worlds. Having a heavy commercial-focus will tend to generate business-type Leaders, for example.

- Separate Faction Leaders out so that they aren't always randomly picked from your Scientists / Governors / Admirals (although they can be).

- I also firmly believe the Leaders should be generated from real worlds, and have a "homeworld". This could be a dynamic trait that provides them some bonuses based on where they grew up.

What would people like to see reworked?
 
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jam2see

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Something that has always bothered me was the fact that hive mind and machine intelligence leaders need to gain experience individulaly, it would be so much better if there was a system in place so your leaders all leveled up together, how this would work with gaining traits from level ups and hiring leaders in the late game I'm not sure
 
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Peter34

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I'm worried that if Stellaris becomes too Leader-focused (keep in mind, we're not talking Rulers, we're talking Leaders) then it won't be the same game any more.
 
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Kapi96

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I mostly want a huge government overhaul, part of that would include leader's factions/ethics actually mattering though. Stuff like if you're a xenophile democracy but the xenophobe candidate causes an upset and wins the election then some things are going to change whether you want them to or not. Getting the candidates for the factions you want to support elected should actually matter.

Plus things like admirals/generals potentially rebelling if they disagree with the things you're doing. Would also be nice if there was an option to fully automate fleets, with their usefulness then dependent on the admiral. A great admiral would be regularly patrolling trade routes, utilising ambushes and hit and run tactics if up against superior forces, or chasing down and destroying weaker ones, while maybe a rubbish admiral just parks the fleet next to your resort planet or something.
 
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Liggi

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I'm worried that Stellaris becomes too Leader-focused (keep in mind, we're not talking Rulers, we're talking Leaders) then it won't be the same game any more.

In a way, I agree. But I think the problem with Leaders at the moment is that you actually have to focus on them a little bit TOO much.

You constantly have to assign them to Science Ships, or Engineering / Physics research. You have to reassign the Governor when they die.

I'd like to see that system made a little more automatic, with more options to intervene directly if that's a place that you'd like to focus. If you want to focus on improving Leaders and ensuring the right people are in the right positions, that should be a gameplay choice, but the system should also be able to operate largely without heavy player intervention if that's not an aspect of gameplay that you find interesting.

You can kinda do this with the economy already. You can turn on automation for individual planets if you want to do that and not have to micromanage your decision making.
 
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DeanTheDull

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Some ideas:

- A drastic increase in the number of traits, positive and negative, so that Leaders are more unique, memorable and interesting. In the same vein, more dynamic traits: admirals / generals may receive unique traits when fighting in wars in various circumstances, rulers may receive traits based on things that happen while they are in charge, faction leaders may gain traits based on events (ie. losing an offensive war may cause the militarist faction leader to become more radical, or the pacifist faction leader to become more vocal).

- Leaders should have ethics.

- Remove the requirement that you have to manually assign Leaders. All positions will be automatically filled by an auto-generated Leader. You can override this selection to a preferred candidate from a much larger Leader Pool using Influence.

- The Leader pool for Governors / Rulers should be expanded, and should be generated in a random, weighted way based on the characteristics of your worlds. Having a heavy commercial-focus will tend to generate business-type Leaders, for example.

- Separate Faction Leaders out so that they aren't always randomly picked from your Scientists / Governors / Admirals (although they can be).

- I also firmly believe the Leaders should be generated from real worlds, and have a "homeworld". This could be a dynamic trait that provides them some bonuses based on where they grew up.

What would people like to see reworked?

Interactions, not numbers or traits.

More and bigger numbers aren't what capture interest over time. More traits might offer more min-maxing potential, if traits were something we had some control over rather than RNG, but once the decision is made there's little to care about until the next time you need to choose a leader. Which- in half the government types- is never, and in the other half is almost-never due to the high influence cost.

What would leaders more interesting is if they engaged and interacted in more mechanics- and with eachother- more often. In any internal-politics overhaul, something more than just the current ethics-faction weighting chance, but things like 'Science Leader Y (with these traits) wants you to chance a focus/do something else)', with cost benefits. Like, say, focusing on a specific tech now, but getting a reward later, be it extra science/faction happiness/leader XP etc.

Similarly, a leader-to-leader inter-personal diplomacy mechanic would be nice, seperate from the current Envoy system. Where the Envoys represent your state's diplomatic corps, this would represent an your ruler's personal interest and focus, internally or externally, with occasional events as a result that are tied to the target-leader of your focus.

Internally, Ruler Engagement could be both a leader development program and a faction-management system, since leaders serve as the faction heads. Making anyone the target for Ruler Engagement would provide a bonus to that leader and their job set, representing your ruler's favoritism or focus. These could be various and include common bonuses anyone would get, or specific bonuses only certain rulers in certain systems would get, including things like-
-(All) Increased XP gain, reduced upkeep.
-(If Faction Leader) Increased faction happiness +5;
-(If State Ethics Faction Leader) Increased ethics attraction
-(If non-State Ethics Faction Leader) Faction unhappiness decreased by 5 (negates a penalty, not an addition)

And for specific job types-
(Governor) Increased Ruler Outputs
(Researcher) Minor increase to research boost/mitigation to sprawl penalties
(Science Ship) +1 skill level to all jobs
(Admiral) Increased fleet recovery time
(General) Decreased war weariness from land battles

But also Government-type specific boosts, which could have costs and benefits
(Democracy) - Endorsement: Boosts chance of engaged leader to win election, but effect depends on planetary happiness and factional considerations (is target ruling coalition ethics, etc.), and creates bigger risk of negative effects if you use Influence to further tip the scales
(Oligarchic) - Scratch-My-Back: Target gets a higher chance of being elected/reduced influence cost to support, and gets bigger bonuses (faction and otherwise), but 'locks in' your support for much longer and angers the faction if changed before the next election.
(Dictatorship) - Heir-Apparent: Stronger bonuses and makes the target the most likely to win election, but comes with a coup-risk in which any significant setback or failure (including colony destruction, war loss or even white peace in an aggressive war, etc.) can trigger an unscheduled leadership transition
(Empire) - Co-Emperor: Not only greatly increases XP growth, but allows the Heir's perks/traits to start benefiting the empire, but has increased risk of ethics deviation (or maybe just increased ethics change rate, but not affecting attraction), and if ethics are too divergent the Heir could spark a civil war akin to a Dictatorship coup but splitting the standing navy and some sectors
(Hive Mind/Machine Gestalts) - Hyper-Focused/Efficient: Greatly increases the benefit of the leader in question, but increases admin sprawl and/or the effect of Admin Sprawl on the entire empire



All of these could/should have some events that pop up every few years- mostly for flavor but some modest choices and rewards for role play

But that would be all internal, since you could also try external engagement.

External engagement would be like an envoy for diplomatic improvement purposes, but rely more on context-dependent events that provide unique opportunities than number-based boosts. These could/should spark reach-out dialogue (similar to insults, but not insults) framed as between the rulers of empires, offering boosts to diplomacy, increasing the effects of existing diplomatic aggrements, and even influence-free diplomatic agreements or opportunities to affect ethics and governments if relations are high.

Things could include-
(All) Diplomatic Partner: Greatly reduced diplomatic agreement influence costs with target empire
(If Migration Pact) Swap Dissidents: If both parties have pops with ethics opposed to the government but compatible with the other (ie miliarist and pacifist), pay a cost for a 1-for-1 swap
(If Research Agreement) Joint Research: If both parties have a tech the other has researched, can agree to a special project that combines the costs of both, uses the research of both, and gives both techs to both empires
(If Guaranteed Independence) Military Enabler: The weaker power gets a discount to armament, and the stronger power gets Influence
(If Non-Aggression Pact) Trust-Building Measure: The other power may propose another diplomatic agreement even if they wouldn't accept one at this time
(If Defense Pact) Military Sales: Empire offers to sell ships to other empire below cap

But also have events based on differing ethics/governments-
(Facilitating ethics switch): If one empire has enough ethics to embrace a faction aligned with the partner (and if the AI would do so anyway), an event that lets the other partner to support the transition. Agreeing saves the ethics-changer influence, and spending differing amounts of resources provides different effects. IE, spend an envoy for a year, but increase the ethics attraction. Provide energy or minerals, and more pops switch. Etc.
(Facilitating government switch) If the Player or AI would reform government, an event offers an incentive to align with the Ruler-engaging partner, or even opportunities normally not available if the partner is willing to pay the cost. So a player could bribe a civic-reforming AI to match their government, with a cost ranging from energy or favors to influence for things letting a Democracy reform straight into an empire.
(Recruiting Dissidents): Chance to gain Assets for espionage operations from the target's ethics dissidents

Or be based on the empires ethics/government type, with benefits for a time-
Militarist: Military Liasons. Gives military intelligence on each other (bad if they'd attack you), but gives passive military leader XP gain.
Pacifist: Conflict resolution mechanisms. Decreases diplomatic and faction opinion penalties.
Materialist: Robot schematic exchange. Reduced cost of pop assembly.
Spiritualist: Missionaries. Increases amenities, and spiritualist attraction.
Genocide: Saving you for last. Mechanically raises your perceived power level/lowers the perceived power level of other empires, guiding the AI-genocide civ to prioritize attacking other empires over you (if possible). They'll still kill you, because it's not like they're saving you for last because they like you or anything, baka.


Etc. etc. etc. The key in this isn't the mechanics themselves, but that they serve as flavor-text pop-ups that reward roleplay and engagement.
 
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prismaticmarcus

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I'm worried that Stellaris becomes too Leader-focused (keep in mind, we're not talking Rulers, we're talking Leaders) then it won't be the same game any more.
that's ok. stellaris doesn't mind being not the same game any more.
 
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I mean if I were going to overhaul leaders, I'd do something radical like ditch the whole "scientist / Governor / Envoy / Ruler / General / Admiral" distinction and just have 'leaders', who had traits which applied bonuses (and penalties) to different roles. They could have scientific, political or military backgrounds, but you wouldn't be necessarily restricted in who could go where - if you want, you could put a scientist in charge of your sectors to improve research output (or put a maniacal one in charge and run the risk of them treating your pops like their own lab rats) or appoint a politician to the head of engineering to make sure economic developments got prioritization, for potential trade offs to more theoretical areas. Of course, just because someone's background is in one field it doesn't mean that they can't learn how to be effective in another (and pick up a specialist aide or two).

To go with this I'd probably also add some kind of 'government positions' system, where leaders could be placed to provide various benefits (this would include the existing heads of research, as well as things like heads of diplomatic, military, economic and cultural departments). Added to this I'd probably also have something like leaders having ethics and perhaps loyalty? (With the risk that disloyal leaders might cause problems for your country).

The main thing is that by having a common (soft-limited) pool of leaders, it forces you to make choices about how you want to focus your leadership - is diplomacy more important to you or would it be better if your most competent loyal politicians were keeping your own government in check? Is it more important to have a competent head of social sciences, or one who aligns closely to government ethics? Should you send out that highly competence but rebellious insubordinate science officer on exploration, knowing that she's a maverick and a loose cannon who's refusal to follow protocol could just as easily end up saving the day or causing a diplomatic incident during first contact? Or just silently hope she gets eaten by a space whale?

Basically, as has often been said, we need to have characters rather than just leaders.
 
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Yeah characters instead of leaders would be quite interesting IMO. Would be kind of cool if characters had loyalties and could rebel and such, a bit like in Imperator. But that would be a huge change to the game, so probably something to consider for Stellaris 2.

Meanwhile, some smaller changes to make them more interesting would be welcome (OP's ideas sound good to me, for example).
 

Liggi

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I mean if I were going to overhaul leaders, I'd do something radical like ditch the whole "scientist / Governor / Envoy / Ruler / General / Admiral" distinction and just have 'leaders', who had traits which applied bonuses (and penalties) to different roles. They could have scientific, political or military backgrounds, but you wouldn't be necessarily restricted in who could go where - if you want, you could put a scientist in charge of your sectors to improve research output (or put a maniacal one in charge and run the risk of them treating your pops like their own lab rats) or appoint a politician to the head of engineering to make sure economic developments got prioritization, for potential trade offs to more theoretical areas. Of course, just because someone's background is in one field it doesn't mean that they can't learn how to be effective in another (and pick up a specialist aide or two).

To go with this I'd probably also add some kind of 'government positions' system, where leaders could be placed to provide various benefits (this would include the existing heads of research, as well as things like heads of diplomatic, military, economic and cultural departments). Added to this I'd probably also have something like leaders having ethics and perhaps loyalty? (With the risk that disloyal leaders might cause problems for your country).

The main thing is that by having a common (soft-limited) pool of leaders, it forces you to make choices about how you want to focus your leadership - is diplomacy more important to you or would it be better if your most competent loyal politicians were keeping your own government in check? Is it more important to have a competent head of social sciences, or one who aligns closely to government ethics? Should you send out that highly competence but rebellious insubordinate science officer on exploration, knowing that she's a maverick and a loose cannon who's refusal to follow protocol could just as easily end up saving the day or causing a diplomatic incident during first contact? Or just silently hope she gets eaten by a space whale?

Basically, as has often been said, we need to have characters rather than just leaders.

I’m a huge fan of everything here. Totally agree. Also would tie nicely into giving the player something interesting to do: if Characters are generated based on the worlds that exist in your (and other) empires, you’d have more reason to structure your worlds in particular ways. There would be more emphasis on trying to build up an empire of a particular character in order to end up in a feedback loop where your empire becomes more effective at doing what it wants to do because it generates Characters who you can use to specialise in that way.

I'm also fascinated by the idea of Characters being generated based on specific events: ie. someone who was an early colonist on a world and served in the local planetary government there, veterans of particular wars, people who came to prominence as representatives to your Federation, or to the Galactic Community and so on, who later go on to hold "government positions" as you put it.
 
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Eled the Worm Tamer

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we need a 'x term president' trait to show mounting respect and institutional memory, and a 'former x term president' one for when your leader goes back to the day job.
 

Morbus Bubbonicus

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Most of the traits are useless and their appliance to leaders are abysmal.
What 90% of players do when selecting Researchers? Correct - hire and dismiss leadersen masse until you get +5% or +10% research trait. Admiral? hire and dismiss until you get gale speed. 90% of traits are worthless.
Leader got negative trait? Dismiss and hire one with needed trait.
 
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Saviour of Galaxy

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Leaders are temporary bonus cards, nothing more. They cannot rebel, they do not have their own opinion, you can get rid of them as you please without consequences. I never had any memorable leader/ruler unless some funny bugged one. Your Chosen One cannot become spiritual leader of the galaxy or become a god in galaxy wide empire. He cannot become a space pope calling for crusades against machine life. Your xenophobic faction can't have a synthethic ruler who can go radical during ethic swap and do mandatory digitalisation of every organic left in the empire. You won't get your own Udina doing coup de etat. You won't have your Blorg princess married to the Padishach Emperor Shadam IV Corino. None will betray you, none will lead the separatist insurgency against you, none you can bribe or use as a spies, because they are always content by whatever you do.
The leader system is one of the reason why internal policy is so luck luster. And I would also argue why external policy is luckluster too.
 
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Woozywyvern

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Personally I'd like some lite RPG elements, where leaders gain points as they level up and you get to spend these in a basic trait/bonus tree so you can direct your leaders growth to some extent. Maybe their starting tree (or trees) are random within their lead type or something.
 
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Liggi

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Personally I'd like some lite RPG elements, where leaders gain points as they level up and you get to spend these in a basic trait/bonus tree so you can direct your leaders growth to some extent. Maybe their starting tree (or trees) are random within their lead type or something.

I do like this idea, but I worry it might become overwhelming quite quickly. It depends on how often these traits need to be assigned, I suppose?

My current game, it's 2235, and I have 8 scientists, 1 Governor, 1 Admiral, and 4 Envoys. That's already 14 "trait trees" I'd have to keep in my head. Later in the game, you could easily end up with 20-30 leaders.

If it's all hands-on and requires you to spend the points you accrue and manage your individual leaders, I can imagine that becoming a bit micro-managey or overwhelming.

I think the key to any system like this is to allow a player choice as to how much they want to engage with the system, without penalising them too hard if they don't engage extensively. So, I love the idea, but I wouldn't want to see constant popups of "pick a trait for <x> leader!".
 
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CBR JGWRR

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Even at the start of the game, you have billions of people in your civilisation. In order to get to be a Leader therefore, you will be some top 0.001% super-person. (in some cultures even bred specifically for enhanced traits even before direct genetic engineering tech is developed) For example, every scientist should be a legit 150+ IQ genius, while every general will be someone like Alexander, who conquered his first nation as a child and died at 32 having conquered a staggeringly vast empire for the technology of the day and the time available.

And Leaders in Stellaris don't feel like that; they feel like modifiers with portraits and names. Functional sure, but I want my nation to feel like the nation is a novel of sorts, and the Leaders are the named protagonists.

What I'd like is to move away from recruiting for specific roles, and instead having a population of Leaders that are characters who can fill roles within your governing structure. And add the ability to headhunt the exact right candidate, especially for Authoritarian regimes.

Which also allows a way of demonstrating a difference between Authoritarian and Egalitarian ethics for example - Authoritarians put Leaders in specific roles the way Stellaris handles it at present, while Egalitarians allow Leaders to move jobs and develop careers of their own. One gives the player the option to fine tune to a high degree, but then Leaders might not like being stuck in the same Science Ship from recruitment until death. The other removes player control granted, but it allows for far more emergent interactions of an intriguing nature. (such as the "admiral parking his fleet at the resort world" idea upthread, that genuinely made me laugh...)

It would certainly add a lot more meaning to the choice of governing ethics and government type.

---

To example what I'd do about Leaders specifically:

One of my projects is planning a Stellaris/EU IV type game set in the speculative fiction series I'm working on, and this is a filled-in draft for one of the Leaders:
Korr 1st draft.jpg


This is more of the detailed screen you get when you click on a specific Leader than the general list view, but you get the idea even if you have no idea about the story aspects. You'd also want to have Faction Allegiances or something similar. Don't know why it is missing from here, it's on the original I copied and pasted to fill it out...

This guy? Sure, he has no scientific qualifications whatsoever (it's debated in universe if he can even read, or whether he just pretends that he can't) and the first thought is leave him as a General; to contextualise his achievements in Stellaris terms, he was hand-picked by a five thousand year old Commander in Chief of a Fallen Empire for the war against an equivalent of a x25 crisis to lead the alliance against said crisis, because he was that good at it.

But what if you made him a planetary Governor?

Well, the dude would have a huge morale boosting effect for both people and defensive armies, that's obvious. Arguably he might bring in a small tourism increase. Crime could be reduced, Militarist ethics having a higher weighting. Maybe a small boost to agriculture production. And he holds his Race's equivalent of Excalibur, which probably counts for something.

What if you put him as an Envoy?

Well, he's the closest to an ideal member of his Race you could get; legendary warrior who rose through the ranks on merit, with the only flaw being he's not quite a perfect warrior-poet blend as they aspire to be. And he's famous across the galaxy for his achievements in the crisis, which has got to help with diplomatic relations actions. So, it's not a bad choice.

And even as a Scientist, sure he's no genius theoretical physicist, but he would have a morale increase for his team, and his decades of field expertise could make him very useful in some Social and Engineering research areas. (granted, he'd be better as a consultant than a team leader)

It's absolutely much more complicated than at present, granted - the biography especially would be difficult in the context of Stellaris as Stellaris is an open player-defined story, and not having fixed characters like a novel series does. But if you had a team of people develop say, several hundred "background" opening sentences, then used a series of event tags to fill dialogue in as their career progresses, it could be made to work - but if every Leader had this level of fluff, they'd feel much more meaningful.

---

I wouldn't be in favour of going down giving all Leaders an RPG style skill tree, honestly. I totally understand wanting to, and it is fine when you are only dealing with a few people - but when you could legit run to fifty to a hundred Leaders in an endgame civilisation, that's going to be a very tedious process.
 
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Millbot

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All the stuff tied to leaders really should be on the radar for the custodian team. I'd argue there are a number of things that are dragged down by current design for leaders. As I mentioned in the thread I started on underappreciated origins that need help, the increased leader life span on the survivor origin trait was likely being over valued by the devs. I'd argue that almost everything that boost leader is getting over valued.

Honestly, instead of more traits. I'd actually would prefer a system that made all traits neutral, rather than the setup where 90+ percent of them are binary. I think each trait should have a bonus, as well as, a malus. Would also prefer a system where having the leader with the trait gets you the bonuses because it's a chore to have to find, recruit and assign leaders to a position that makes the best use of their traits. I doe believe that when people objected to envoys not having traits, the devs mention they were keen on the idea that you had to shuffle envoys around to make use of their traits, instead of just letting them do their thing. Also think this could be setup to reinforce a dynamic that make tall and wide both viable.

Such a system might require letting us have more control on what traits I leaders get as they level, but I could see that mostly being a good thing.

If they did that, then all they'd need to do is give gestalt rulers traits. Immorality would be a reasonable trade for agendas if traits are made to be interesting.
 
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Critical Ethics

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The elephant in the room here is the tech system. Currently the only real control Players have over getting specific techs are scientist traits. Any system making leaders actually fun to engage with has to either leave that intact or come alongside a fairly hefty overhaul of the science system.
 
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