Laying Down the Law: Gavelkind

[ZechsMerquise73]

Anyone else feel that Gavelkind isn't quite working the way it should? I imagined something closer to the division of Charlemagne's Empire. Maybe that's an atypical example of how such laws worked, but the way its currently implemented doesn't seem right or altogether interesting, either.

Currently, it seems, only a few children are devided titles. So if you have 2 kingdoms, 4 duchy titles, and 9 counties with 6 children, it normally seems like two will become a king (or just one), one will become a duke, and two will become counts, or some variant. It rarely seems to make sense, and several sons will sometimes be left out of the loop. If you have an Empire, it will not be divided equally at all. Unless you have two Empires, all lands will stay under the older heir.

In my best wish scenario, each inheriting son becomes independent. Attempting to land them all from the top (all emperors if possible, etc). There's the problem of making sure these children are landed and that the land is close to the realm of their primary title, though. Not sure what could be done about that. If it could be done, it would certainly take away from a lot of the blobbing mechanics in some places.

What does everyone think? Does Gavelkind work fine the way it is?

 

[vitek69]

Are you aware of the fact that Charlemagne also intended for the younger brothers to stay vassals of the oldest one, who would assume the title Emperor? In the end, he ended up with only one son (Luis the Pious) so it wasn't a problem The empire split a generation later, because the younger sons of Luis (Luis the German and Charles the Bald) refused to be vassals of the oldest son (Lothair). No sane ruler would ever want his sons to split up his realm and become each independent (and weaker)

 

[Viper623]

Yeah, I think Gavelkind succession is sort of a misnomer in this game. ZechsMerquise73 is correct in saying that under Gavelkind law, the estate should be divided equally amongst the sons. But to my knowledge, true Gavelkind succession was not widely practised amongst rulers of any real stature and was restricted more to minor landowners. I think a more correct term for what the game considers "Gavelkind" should be Partible succession or possibly there is some other more accurate succession law. Partible succession is just a generic term for when sons (or in the case of Agnatic succession, all the children) inherit a portion of their fathers land, usually with the largest portion going to the eldest.

I think "Gavelkind" (or whatever you want to call it) succession in game would be modelled better if it was connected to Crown Authority or some other variable. With higher crown authority giving the eldest son a larger portion of the inheritance.

 

[Lys91]

What I would like is at least they don't split your main duchy when you have other. It always annoy me when one the brother get a county within the duchy of the "main" heir, while he still got his own duchy title...

 

[DeaTh-ShiNoBi]

The Rurik family (Rurikovich) had a tendency to divide land among sons. That's why the Rus was so divided, and as a consequence, weaker than it could have been, throughout much of its history.

 

[Daelix]

Yeah, I think Gavelkind succession is sort of a misnomer in this game. ZechsMerquise73 is correct in saying that under Gavelkind law, the estate should be divided equally amongst the sons. But to my knowledge, true Gavelkind succession was not widely practised amongst rulers of any real stature and was restricted more to minor landowners. I think a more correct term for what the game considers "Gavelkind" should be Partible succession or possibly there is some other more accurate succession law. Partible succession is just a generic term for when sons (or in the case of Agnatic succession, all the children) inherit a portion of their fathers land, usually with the largest portion going to the eldest.

I think "Gavelkind" (or whatever you want to call it) succession in game would be modelled better if it was connected to Crown Authority or some other variable. With higher crown authority giving the eldest son a larger portion of the inheritance.

Correct. Gavelkind was a land law that only actually existed in Brittania, traditional to the county of Kent and also became prominent in Wales - and because by Gavelkind the Welsh divided their lands amongst their sons, it kept their realm in a constantly weak state of a bunch of squabbling petty lords until eventually they succumbed to England. The very different form in Ireland saw the lands pass back into the hands of the community, and their leaders would then divide the lands out amongst their members.

And I'm pretty sure you meant "in the case of Cognatic succession". But you're absolutely right, Gavelkind should be rare and cultural in CKII, like Cognatic succession. A more feasible medieval form of land division would be for the heir to remain King/Emperor/Duke what have you, and the other inheritors become the Counts/Dukes directly beneath him.

 

[jordarkelf]

Gavelkind in CK2 really seems modelled on the Russian situation, they did a simple split with the oldest son getting the biggest title, and everything divided by birth order.
Celtic Britain should be using some kind of dynastic elective, with all dynasty members being eligible. Often it was not the eldest son who inherited in Wales, Scotland, or Ireland, but a younger brother, or a cousin, or an uncle. Even pre-Norman England would be better represented using this.
It's how and why borders were so fluid within one dynasty, but still somewhat stable outside of it. In game terms, let's say that various branches of the O'Neills control six counties in Ireland and all counties use this law. Barring conquest, there could be at any point between one to six countries, depending on who gets elected holder of a title when it becomes free, so sometimes this is a previous unlanded O'Neill, sometimes this is someone already holding a title. But the overall dynastic lands are the same.
A sort of middle ground between Seniority and full elective, for all titles.
But this is all moot as we cannot script succession laws.

On the other hand, gavelkind works to compensate for a flaw in current CK2 mechanics in that sons are too content remaining unlanded. By defaulting to gavelkind law at least the AI is forced to give to land most of its sons, rather than keeping everything they can in hand only to then be forced to hand half of it out to strangers as they hit their demesne limit.

 

[knppel]

I'd pay 5 bucks or maybe even 10 for a dlc where I had a last will interface and was able to split up all my demesne and titles like I want it (bound to share the titles of each tier equally amongst the children, of course).
It would be amazing, because you could actually do what Charlemagne did (and then laugh about the foolish sons killing each other), while under the current law settings probably even Charlemagne would have ended up with let's say like Luis becoming King of France AND Germany by accident, but having his demesne in Italy somewhere while the french and german duchies go the others.

 

[vitek69]

It would be amazing, because you could actually do what Charlemagne did (and then laugh about the foolish sons killing each other), while under the current law settings probably even Charlemagne would have ended up with let's say like Luis becoming King of France AND Germany by accident, but having his demesne in Italy somewhere while the french and german duchies go the others.

Such a DLC would really be worth paying for I think, and I can't imagine it being that hard to do

 

[grumphie]

pure gavelkind? nah. with a cool gui and some improvements to other forms(i.e. elective changing their votes during the vote, bribing ect., primogeniture younger bro's demanding titles, seniority your children beign angry and all ect., maybe one ro two new forms)

 

[Zireael]

Gavelkind as it works now is modelled on the Russian/Polish example, but without the last will element. I suggested introducing a last will some time ago. I'll quote the same historical precedent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testament_of_Boles%C5%82aw_III_Krzywousty

 

[Derahan]

Gavelkind is not to worry, it is very easy to abuse if you want to keep all your titles, all you need to do is have 1 county and all the other titels will pass to 1 son. I currently have 2 emperor titels and 10+ kingdom titels and all my titels will pass to the son of my choosing. (not elevtive, gavelkind), accidently happen alot.....unfortuanly.