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ejnomad07

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I think you say it right there. Sardinia and Corsica could very well have been regional exceptions in Roman conquered areas, so why should they be shown in 879 with names of a culture that was never, ever, fully present in that place? Especially one that had been dead for quite some time.

That's a strawman argument and not a good one at that as it misses the whole point. They might have carried over regional names for their children but that doesn't mean they didn't have a Roman government setup (Which I proved they did) and didn't also name their kids with Roman names (Which I proved they did) and didn't view fuedalism like the Roman empire did (Which I proved they did).

That's like ostracizing German's into there own Christian group because they used Christmas trees.
 

cpteveros

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That's a strawman argument and not a good one at that as it misses the whole point. They might have carried over regional names for their children but that doesn't mean they didn't have a Roman government setup (Which I proved they did) and didn't also name their kids with Roman names (Which I proved they did) and didn't view fuedalism like the Roman empire did (Which I proved they did).

That's like ostracizing German's into there own Christian group because they used Christmas trees.

How is it a strawman? Your point was that the islands should be Roman in 879 because Rome controlled them at some point, and that parts were Romanized. I disagreed, and pointed out that your own logic contradicted your point. Just because someone shares a different opinion than you doesn't mean they are using logical fallacies and subterfuge.

Furthermore, I don't remember any of this proof other than some basic conjecture. Yeah, they had a unique form of government. No, it doesn't make them Roman. They may have named their kids vulgar latin names, but that doesn't make them Roman any more so than the Italians or French.

I don't even see the relevance of that last line, as it doesn't make sense. If you want people to agree with you, insulting them when they disagree and then telling them their stance is weak is the wrong way to go about it.

At the end of the day, you can simply mod them in yourself if it makes you happy. I, however, will find it a bit of a stretch to say that the majority of the inhabitants of Sardinia and Corsica were toga-wearing Romans with gladius swords, speaking the language of long-dead emperors naturally hundreds of years after their death.
 

classicist

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Furthermore, I don't remember any of this proof other than some basic conjecture. Yeah, they had a unique form of government. No, it doesn't make them Roman. They may have named their kids vulgar latin names, but that doesn't make them Roman any more so than the Italians or French.

I wholly agree. And just as a kind-natured advice to ejnomad07, care should be taken when using the formulation 'I proved'. It implies really quite a heavy epistemic/heuristic burden in English, and your previous argument didn't really back it up.
 

Thorv

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As a bottom line, indeed, I'd like to pont out that there is a strong correlation between culture and language in our modern nation states. That should not be projected back to the medieval period

Apologies for yet another digression, but I cannot resist the temptation to reply to this and other points made by Classicist.

(1) Since the word ‘culture’ carries a lot of extra baggage, I will call ‘CKulture’ what I think should be modeled in the game. I believe that at least some degree of language similarity should be a necessary condition for CKultural identity (Though not a sufficient condition – I too, like anyone else, reject the strict equivalence between language and culture). That is, two characters/provinces should not belong to the same CKulture unless they are supposed to speak sufficiently similar native languages.

(2) How much similarity is sufficient? If we cast the net too wide, then we’d have to say that Magyars and Finns could belong to the same culture after all—which is far-fetched. If the similarity is too narrow, then even minor dialects would reflect cultural differences—which is more than we want. I’d just say two languages are sufficiently similar when their speakers could somehow understand one another. This is still vague, but we need not be more precise than that, for CKulture is itself a vague thing.

(3) The above is, at least, how I rationalize and role-play the opinion penalty due to wrong culture. I like you less because you don’t speak my language. This is also how I can make sense of mentors’ changing the culture of their mentees: somehow the idiom of your foreign educator displaces that of your parents, and becomes your first language.

(4) I believe that the correlation between culture and language was strong even well before the formation of modern nation states. I agree with Classicist’s source, Hobsbawm (1996), that that the emergence of standardised official languages was encouraged by the formation of nation states—clearly, the linguistic landscape of the Middle Ages was not as homogenous as that of the post-Napoleonic era. However, my view is not as anachronistic as Classicist think it is. I will not argue for this, though, but just cite the example of Dante Alighieri. Book I of De Vulgari Eloquentia states that locutio (alongside mores and habitus) is a characteristic of the cultural patrimony of the Italian people. In other words, Dante claims that the Italian vernacular is a distinctive element of the culture of Italy. Was Dante a proto-nationalist well head of his time (as some have claimed)? I don’t believe so.

(5) Having said that, I concede that back in the Middle Ages, the feudal elite did not place as much importance on linguistic identity as the lower classes did. However, this is not so much because the elite must have had a different concept of culture. Rather, they had different priorities that led them to regard social status as more salient than cultural affinity. I think this is well represented in the game by the fact that the opinion penalty due to wrong culture is comparatively low (it would be much higher in nation states, or proto-nations, ruled by foreigners)

(6) I do not believe that CKulture should factor in social rank and status anyway. These are already represented by other means, such as title, claims, and the very fact of being a playable character, as opposed to, say, Baldrick the dung-gatherer.

(7) On synchronic language variation: Classicist asks me if I would apply a linguistic criterion of cultural identity to what he calls the ‘dialect continuums’. As a matter of fact, I would. Given stricter criteria of language similarity, I think we could define localized regional cultures or ‘micro-cultures’ . I understand, that this is goes well beyond the scope of Paradox games (and sufficiently accurate linguistic data is probably lacking anyway, especially in the early Middle Age). Maybe more fine-grained cultures could be something for Europa Universalis 6?

(8) On diachronic language variation: Classicists objects that linguistic change and culture change have largely different causes. In my opinion, cultural changes do not have clearly identifiable causes; rather, they mostly are ‘epiphenomena’ or side effects of other types of changes, including, crucially, changes of the linguistic sort. How much linguistic change is enough to warrant a change of culture? Not a single and localised phonological shift, obviously. But, by virtue of a slow process of accretion, enough linguistic change will eventually correlate to a distinctly different culture. I have no idea how the game could plausibly model this, though. Unfortunately, the game mechanics is ill-suited to simulate the evolution of cultures through time.
 
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classicist

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Many thanks to Thorv for a meticulous an well-argued response! I'll try to, likewise, curb my response, but there are also several good points which I' like to comment.

(1) Since the word ‘culture’ carries a lot of extra baggage, I will call ‘CKulture’ what I think should be modeled in the game. I believe that at least some degree of language similarity should be a necessary condition for CKultural identity (Though not a sufficient condition – I too, like anyone else, reject the strict equivalence between language and culture). That is, two characters/provinces should not belong to the same CKulture unless they are supposed to speak sufficiently similar native languages.

Quite reasonable. In-game this would be a wholly logical degree of distinction.

(2) How much similarity is sufficient? If we cast the net too wide, then we’d have to say that Magyars and Finns could belong to the same culture after all—which is far-fetched. If the similarity is too narrow, then even minor dialects would reflect cultural differences—which is more than we want. I’d just say two languages are sufficiently similar when their speakers could somehow understand one another. This is still vague, but we need not be more precise than that, for CKulture is itself a vague thing.

Indeed. This would have the added advantage that a mutual intelligibility is crucial in the most common distinctions between dialects and languages. And it seems to be the level used in CK2 already, at least in some cases: German (CKulture, as you'd say) is one of these. On the other hand, the Catalano-Occitano-North Italian dialect continuum would give trouble to anyone, and hence could be difficult to model.

(3) The above is, at least, how I rationalize and role-play the opinion penalty due to wrong culture. I like you less because you don’t speak my language. This is also how I can make sense of mentors’ changing the culture of their mentees: somehow the idiom of your foreign educator displaces that of your parents, and becomes your first language.

Again, makes sense.

(4) I believe that the correlation between culture and language was strong even well before the formation of modern nation states. I agree with Classicist’s source, Hobsbawm (1996), that that the emergence of standardised official languages was encouraged by the formation of nation states—clearly, the linguistic landscape of the Middle Ages was not as homogenous as that of the post-Napoleonic era. However, my view is not as anachronistic as Classicist think it is. I will not argue for this, though, but just cite the example of Dante Alighieri. Book I of De Vulgari Eloquentia states that locutio (alongside mores and habitus) is a characteristic of the cultural patrimony of the Italian people. In other words, Dante claims that the Italian vernacular is a distinctive element of the culture of Italy. Was Dante a proto-nationalist well head of his time (as some have claimed)? I don’t believe so.

I, too, have encountered the claims that Dante was thinking in a nationalist fashion - which seems rather unlikely as you noted. For one thing, the rest of his oeuvre betrays no divergent views on nationes compared with his contemporaries. On the other hand, I'd like to make a remark about the terminology characterizing the Italians in Dante's work, since it's something which I remotely know about (a friend gave a lecture series on DVE some years back, and we did a small-scale reading group on it in preparation). Dante's list of characterizing a populus/natio is in fact lifted almost wholesale from the ancient Greco-Roman ethnographical writing. From Herodotus to Caesar and from Strabo to Ammianus Marcellinus, there were broadly speaking four elements which were consistently given in describing a population group: lexis/locutio, ethos/mores, physis/habitus, and hiereia/cultus. Of these four standards, it seems Dante was unable to use the last one, since Christianity didn't really retain any distinguishing force within Europe. I'm not saying that he was not making a case of distinguishing Italians from other Romance-speakers (he certainly was), but that his inclusion of language or speech in the paradigm was qualified by the classical tradition.

(5) Having said that, I concede that back in the Middle Ages, the feudal elite did not place as much importance on linguistic identity as the lower classes did. However, this is not so much because the elite must have had a different concept of culture. Rather, they had different priorities that led them to regard social status as more salient than cultural affinity. I think this is well represented in the game by the fact that the opinion penalty due to wrong culture is comparatively low (it would be much higher in nation states, or proto-nations, ruled by foreigners)

Quite so, I' even say that the medieval elite was - to borrow a modern term - cross-national. After all, there were certain strains in the broad European chivalric culture, in particular, that would have brought the elites closer to each other while not affecting the "depressed classes" (well, the vulgus, to use a more historical term for the period). Your point about salience is very good.

(6) I do not believe that CKulture should factor in social rank and status anyway. These are already represented by other means, such as title, claims, and the very fact of being a playable character, as opposed to, say, Baldrick the dung-gatherer.

I agree the social connections are quite well represented.

(7) On synchronic language variation: Classicist asks me if I would apply a linguistic criterion of cultural identity to what he calls the ‘dialect continuums’. As a matter of fact, I would. Given stricter criteria of language similarity, I think we could define localized regional cultures or ‘micro-cultures’ . I understand, that this is goes well beyond the scope of Paradox games (and sufficiently accurate linguistic data is probably lacking anyway, especially in the early Middle Age). Maybe more fine-grained cultures could be something for Europa Universalis 6?

Hmm... well. Surely this just zooms the problem in - retaining the necessity to make distinctions, albeit in a scale about which we have even less any certain information? And while it can be argued that micro-cultures could probably be defined, the actual anthropological markers for such a 'cultural' boundary that would become so minute (a way of carving a lintel? the shape of a ladle? etc.) that the whole question would drift in the direction of very 19th-century seeming 'Volkskunde'. And of that I'd be very skeptical. The same applies to the level of language. A minor, say, phonetic difference along a stretch of the dialect continuum, with the overall criterion of mutual intelligibility still retained, can easily be either more or less (in terms of phonetic divergence: e.g. West Country English and most other varieties in the southern half) than is met between genuine linguistic boundaries (e.g. Scots and English). The degrees of individual changes in dialect/language cannot be the whole picture, and I would argue that the medieval dialect continuums woul for the most part been even more extensive than nowadays, purely on account of the dialectal/linguistic divergence being an ongoing process.

(8) On diachronic language variation: Classicists objects that linguistic change and culture change have largely different causes. In my opinion, cultural changes do not have clearly identifiable causes; rather, they mostly are ‘epiphenomena’ or side effects of other types of changes, including, crucially, changes of the linguistic sort. How much linguistic change is enough to warrant a change of culture? Not a single and localised phonological shift, obviously. But, by virtue of a slow process of accretion, enough linguistic change will eventually correlate to a distinctly different culture. I have no idea how the game could plausibly model this, though. Unfortunately, the game mechanics is ill-suited to simulate the evolution of cultures through time.

This actually pertains to what I already commented on the previous point (hence, vide supra). You are, of course, quite correct about cultural changes often being just reflection of societal and other changes. My previous expression of this was too lazy, and can't really be retained. But this matter of diacronic change is a difficult one, and one that isn't really served by the quite fundamental and understandable habit of societies continuing to use the same ethnonyms of themselves and their neighbours for hundreds of years. I mean it is relatively certain that, e.g. for most modern (non-specialist) people the medieval forms of their own language would be barely intelligible if at all, and hence the whole question of a cultural continuum could be raised - yet the habit of perceiving themselves as the cultural/national heirs of those medieval cultures (of whom the same ethnonym is often used) seems to persist... (And it seems we're back near the whole 'invention of tradition' question and the birth of European notion of nation states...)