Latest WWW Worries

[hkrommel]

So if I'm not mistaken, WWW is played in "historical" mode. Now I understand the game is still in development, but what happened in the last two WWW can hardly be called "historical" or even plausible in a historical context. Here's what happened:

1. Poland ceded Danzig, they had to reload and modify an earlier save just to get war going
2. Lithuania joined the Axis
3. Latvia joined the Axis
4. Finland capitulated to the USSR
5. Finland joined the Allies
6. Nationalist Spain joined the Axis
7. Denmark joined the Allies before Germany declared war on them
8. France joined the Franco-British Union

Now, any one of these things, or even a few in combination should be possible even within historical mode as long as the player works for them. Again, I understand that the game is far from finished but if this is "historical" mode, we've got some problems. Watching the last WWW it seemed like everyone in Europe was throwing in with one of the two sides, regardless of whether it doomed them (looking at you Denmark). It was a mad scramble where nation joining popups were happening at a torrid pace. It seems a lot more testing and AI work is needed, which we knew, but is a bit discouraging all the same.

 

[GsusNSV]

Its just an option to have the AI follow national focuses according to a timeline.

That isnt what this is, its just a mode where the AI nations pickes focuses in a historical order if they can. if they cant (say if Secret master has been abusing stuff) they will do other stuff. Its not affecting other things or lobotomozing the diplomatic and strategic AI like in HOI3

yeah. full historical mode by its nature would lead to unhistorical gameplay as players wouldnt do historical choices when faced with a historic AI etc.

So the game will be historical, as long as the player stays historical.

GB didn't guarantee Poland. The Poland AI won't suicide alone, just for WW2 to start.

 

[CyberianK]

Maybe we know why the game won't be released in the next few weeks then

 

[Zaku]

So if I'm not mistaken, WWW is played in "historical" mode. Now I understand the game is still in development, but what happened in the last two WWW can hardly be called "historical" or even plausible in a historical context. Here's what happened:

1. Poland ceded Danzig, they had to reload and modify an earlier save just to get war going
2. Lithuania joined the Axis
3. Latvia joined the Axis
4. Finland capitulated to the USSR
5. Finland joined the Allies
6. Nationalist Spain joined the Axis
7. Denmark joined the Allies before Germany declared war on them
8. France joined the Franco-British Union

Now, any one of these things, or even a few in combination should be possible even within historical mode as long as the player works for them. Again, I understand that the game is far from finished but if this is "historical" mode, we've got some problems. Watching the last WWW it seemed like everyone in Europe was throwing in with one of the two sides, regardless of whether it doomed them (looking at you Denmark). It was a mad scramble where nation joining popups were happening at a torrid pace. It seems a lot more testing and AI work is needed, which we knew, but is a bit discouraging all the same.

Historical mode only means that the game will go on the historical route IF the player doesn't intervene.
1. UK didn't guarantee Poland.
2. Germany invited then to the Axis.
3. Same.
4. I have no idea if the players did anything to Finland, this is probably a bug.
5. UK invited them.
6. Germany invited them.
7. Same again.
8. Johan selected the ahistorical choice IIRC.

 

[CharlieFox]

I agree, it makes no sense that Denmark or Finland join the allies , not unless Germany is losing badly. Diplomatic AI should be tweaked to be less suicidal .

 

[Qemarar]

1. Poland ceding Danzig is still plausible, especially if they didn't feel like Britain or France were going to guarantee them.
2./3. Lithuania was originally going to be the the German sphere of influence, so Lithuania and Latvia joining the Axis to avoid Soviet occupation is plausible.
4. Finland capitulating is still plausible
5. Finland joining the Allies to combat the Soviets is just as valid as them joining the Axis
6. Franco was already anti-communist, so it would make sense that Nationalist Spain would join the Axis
7. and 8. have already been covered in the above posts.

I think you're missing the point of "historical" mode. It's meant to recreate the war if the player follow the actual timeline. In the WWW broadcast, Germany didn't even invade Poland until 1940. How can the game be historical if the player isn't being historical?

I agree, it makes no sense that Denmark or Finland join the allies , not unless Germany is losing badly. Diplomatic AI should be tweaked to be less suicidal .

If Denmark knew they'd be invaded, it would make sense to join the Allies in order to gain support and have a government in exile. Finland joining the Axis was just as suicidal for them in the end considering Germany lost the war.

 

[Sanny]

They are continuously working on the AI after all.

 

[Ted52]

They are continuously working on the AI after all.

So they say

 

[hkrommel]

Historical mode only means that the game will go on the historical route IF the player doesn't intervene.
1. UK didn't guarantee Poland.
2. Germany invited then to the Axis.
3. Same.
4. I have no idea if the players did anything to Finland, this is probably a bug.
5. UK invited them.
6. Germany invited them.
7. Same again.
8. Johan selected the ahistorical choice IIRC.

With Latvia and Lithuania these were to be in the Soviet sphere per the M-R pact, so why would Germany allying with them not piss off the Soviets?

Why would Finland accept even if the UK offered?

Why would Nationalist Spain accept even if Germany offered?

Why would Denmark accept, committing suicide? At that point they don't know if Germany is going to invade them or not.

Regarding the Franco-British Union, why would France accept? Historically it was offered but the burden of decision lies on the French, and it is decidedly against their interests to accept such a union.

 

[Mr.Bajskorv]

I have no problem with a historical outcome, though it has to make sence and be logical.

Finland joining the allies seams quite odd when the allies are at war with the Axis becouse it's mere geografic position, Soviet to the east and nonallid, Sweden and Norway in the west and have to go through the baltic/germany to get access to the rest of the allies. I hope the AI atleast takes that into account.

 

[Zaku]

With Latvia and Lithuania these were to be in the Soviet sphere per the M-R pact, so why would Germany allying with them not piss off the Soviets?


Why would Finland accept even if the UK offered?

Why would Nationalist Spain accept even if Germany offered?

Why would Denmark accept, committing suicide? At that point they don't know if Germany is going to invade them or not.

Regarding the Franco-British Union, why would France accept? Historically it was offered but the burden of decision lies on the French, and it is decidedly against their interests to accept such a union.

Even so, when the AI deviated from historical decisions it was because of player interference. I find it cool for example that Poland refuses to go to war if there is no hope of help from the allies.

The rest is also fine with me. It is logical for Latvia and Lithuania to join the axis to save themselves from becoming part of the Union, Russia should get annoyed by it though.

IRL Franco didn't join the Axis because Spain was devestated by the years of civil war. This is not the case in this game since they won really fast. I think it is logical for Franco to join them for some land grab if he has a large enough army and manpower reserves.

It is strange that the Danes and Finns joined the Allies, but the diplomatic AI is probably not finished yet because the game is still in alpha. Most likely it doesn't weight in strength of the alliance, or if it's loosing, only the relations seemed to matter to them.

Franco-British union: Johan is the leader of allies, he decided that they should unify. Maybe this event need balancing to give an option for France to refuse, but it was still not the AI who deviated from history, it was the player.

 

[potski]

They were playing MP. There is no way to guarantee that MP sessions follow exactly historical route, except by "house rules", and by the players only choosing the "right" NFs. A UK AI would have guaranteed Poland, once this option comes from increased WT, but Johan forgot. That meant Poland then caved to the demand for Danzig, preventing a German DoW by event. But Germany can DoW whoever they want, even without fabricating claims. They didn't need to reload a save game, except to get the event pop-ups. So they were never in danger of playing a game without WW2.

I doubt Denmark and Finland joining the Allies are implausible, or Latvia, Lithuania or fascist Spain wanting to join the Axis. The German AI would need to understand that if it has signed M-R, then any request from the Baltic States to join the Axis should be refused. The secret protocols in the Pact gave these to the Soviet Union.

Finland was historically in the "sphere of influence" of Germany. They didn't join the Axis IRL as they believed that Germany would come to their aid again anyway. Even when the Winter War started, they fought hard thinking they would get German Divs sent to them. They didn't know that Hitler had stabbed them in the back and signed the secret protocols in the M-R Pact.

Even when Finland later co-operated with the Axis as a co-belligerent against the Soviets in the Continuation War, they still didn't know about what was in M-R. There is a recording of Hitler from 1942 trying to explain to Mannerheim why they couldn't send any Divs to Finland in late 1939, in the Winter War. His excuse was that his Army was "fair weather" and his generals wouldn't allow him to attack France immediately after the defeat of Poland, so he had to maintain all of his Divs in France throughout the winter, in case of an invasion by the French. It's bizarre, given that he somehow expected these "fair weather" Divs to fight in the depths of the Soviet winter two years later, then made the same mistake again in late 1942 that led to Stalingrad.

It was pretty clear from the films of their meeting, that by then Mannerheim didn't trust Hitler. And, of course, we now know Hitler had been lying through his back teeth to Finland all the time.

The problem in a sandbox is getting a democracy to act the way Finland did. In terms of government type, their natural place was in the Allies, but they virtually ended up at war with them, because they joined with Germany in Barbarossa and attacked the Soviets, who then allied with UK. For political reasons the Allies never actually DoW'ed Finland, and left all fighting in that theater to Soviet forces. They eventually persuaded Finland diplomatically that they couldn't win the war, and were better off joining the Allies.

I wonder what they thought when the contents of M-R became publicly known during the Nuremburg trials?

As to "looking at you Denmark" - it's more strange looking back that they didn't join the Allies, and somehow believed that telling the world they were neutral would be enough to spare them from fascist invasion. They were completely naive, given what happened to Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland.

Can you make the AI act that stupid?

 

[KrakowPeach]

With Latvia and Lithuania these were to be in the Soviet sphere per the M-R pact, so why would Germany allying with them not piss off the Soviets?

Why would Finland accept even if the UK offered?

Why would Nationalist Spain accept even if Germany offered?

Why would Denmark accept, committing suicide? At that point they don't know if Germany is going to invade them or not.

Regarding the Franco-British Union, why would France accept? Historically it was offered but the burden of decision lies on the French, and it is decidedly against their interests to accept such a union.

Latvia/Lithuania: Maybe it did piss the Soviets off - to the point where they are close at declaring war now.

Finland: With the threat of the Soviet Union it doesn't seem that odd that Finland would seek the alliance of powerful nations. Of course this would drag them into a war with Germany, but they are not an immediat threat like the Soviets.

Nationalist Spain: With France almost falling it would make sense for Spain to join in. Maybe they can get a piece of the pie? Besides, Franco and Nazi-Germany share close ties.

Denmark: There were strong forces in Denmark in favour of a more "aggressive" course. With Germany invading half it's neighbours this doesn't seem completely off. Joing the Allies might give Denmark the help it needs to survive. But your right in the sense that this implies Denmark having knowledge of the future it shouldn't.

Franco-British Union: France had almost fallen when Johan did this so it certainly was in their interest. In this scenario not joining the british would most certainly have resulted in the fall of France.

 

[CharlieFox]

In the case of Denmark, even if it believed joining the allies was the best option I seriously doubt it would have joined officially unless it recieved enough weapons and equipments via Lend-Lease to field an army capable of stoping a German invasion. And even then, all it could hope to achieve was holding the line and would become exposed to German Strategic air bombardment and submarine warfare.

 

[hkrommel]

Franco-British union: Johan is the leader of allies, he decided that they should unify. Maybe this event need balancing to give an option for France to refuse, but it was still not the AI who deviated from history, it was the player.

The screen was on the German player IIRC, so we don't know how that event came about. The French should refuse in almost all cases though.

Maybe it did piss the Soviets off - to the point where they are close at declaring war now.

From the video it looked like relations were improving

Nationalist Spain: With France almost falling it would make sense for Spain to join in. Maybe they can get a piece of the pie? Besides, Franco and Nazi-Germany share close ties.

They joined when the war was actually going against the Germans. Their intervention played a large part in helping the German player break through after chucking men at the Maginot line for a few months.

There were strong forces in Denmark in favour of a more "aggressive" course. With Germany invading half it's neighbours this doesn't seem completely off. Joing the Allies might give Denmark the help it needs to survive. But your right in the sense that this implies Denmark having knowledge of the future it shouldn't.

Strategically the Allies can't help Denmark, basically they just chose suicide.

Franco-British Union: France had almost fallen when Johan did this so it certainly was in their interest. In this scenario not joining the british would most certainly have resulted in the fall of France.

France is going to fall anyways. Historically this was an option but the French government saw it as a British attempt to take over the French colonies. It really doesn't help the French in any way, it just gets their army killed more and humiliates them even more than historically. I don't see how this helps anyone but Britain.

 

[Septawn]

There is no "historical mode." They just said they were going to mostly follow the historical event chain in their national focuses. That was only thing they promised. The rest is just them playing the game to the best of their abilities.

 

[Zaku]

The screen was on the German player IIRC, so we don't know how that event came about. The French should refuse in almost all cases though.

Johan said he chose that option because Jakob invited Spain into the Axis.
They even made fun out of this, saying that they were supposed to do the historical route, but in the end neither of them did that.

 

[Cpack]

I agree, it makes no sense that Denmark or Finland join the allies , not unless Germany is losing badly. Diplomatic AI should be tweaked to be less suicidal .

After the bloody civil war, also Spain should try to stay out of war as long as possible to recover, say at least for the next couple of years...

 

[Kourgath223]

But Germany can DoW whoever they want, even without fabricating claims. They didn't need to reload a save game, except to get the event pop-ups. So they were never in danger of playing a game without WW2.

One correction the Fascists nations can only DOW whoever they want without claims while they are at war. So in this case Germany can't DOW say France without first either A) Getting the war by event with Poland or B) Fabricating claims on France.