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French sub cruiser is allmost as realistic as superhaevy tank brigade,so I dont see the reason why not.
My whish is,I must agree,more difficult,I want realy existed XXI sub and allmost existed XXI sub fleets as a balance of never existing nuclear battleship and never existed supehaevy battleship fleets.
You do know about the Surcouf?
However it isn't practical which is what you meant and you probably knew about it.
I'd agree that the XXI was a great advance in Submarine technology, but as it was never extensively used during the war we have no idea how ASW techniques would of adapted to combat them. ASW has improved since the end of the Second World War, but as no country has been threatened by subs like the UK was during the War there hasn't been the money and effort thrown at ASW technologies and techniques. As such it is all conjecture about how the new submarines would of affected the war.
From a gameplay perspective making the XXI massively better then previous subs would ruin the game. You could just rush to research the techs to gain the better subs and then decimate opposition navies. It'd make all the other naval forces virtually obsolete and ruin naval combat.
From a gameplay perspective making the XXI massively better then previous subs would ruin the game. You could just rush to research the techs to gain the better subs and then decimate opposition navies. It'd make all the other naval forces virtually obsolete and ruin naval combat.
No one, once they'd looked at the stats, ever researched subs past 1939 model in HOI 2 unless they were RPing. We all knew that they'd be pointless wastes of IC, sunk the moment they entered the same sea zone as a DD or CVE. Dive boat or Nuclear Attack Sub, it didn't matter, may as well use something cheap.
What we have here is a conflict of hindsight. One hindsight is telling us that ASW won the Battle of the Atlantic. The other one says that the Gotland can sink the USS Nimitz and maybe even escape. . . and that U-2511 might have done the same to HMS Norfolk, had they met a day earlier.
One thing I will say though, you shouldn't be able to rush Electroboats before getting your conventional submersible force built and beaten up. Necessity is the mother of invention (or Sub Practical in this case).
What we have here is a conflict of hindsight. One hindsight is telling us that ASW won the Battle of the Atlantic. The other one says that the Gotland can sink the USS Nimitz and maybe even escape. . . and that U-2511 might have done the same to HMS Norfolk, had they met a day earlier.
One thing I will say though, you shouldn't be able to rush Electroboats before getting your conventional submersible force built and beaten up. Necessity is the mother of invention (or Sub Practical in this case).
You do know about the Surcouf?
However it isn't practical which is what you meant and you probably knew about it.
As I perfectly described, as realistic as superhaevy tank.
This is XXI sub in Bremershaven Germany.
And this is latest offspring of the same line of technology 60 years later,modern 2005 U-212 sub.
That my dear fellows. is called well alive branch of weaponry, anlike battleships,especialy nuclear, superhaevy tanks,and cruiser-subs,sub -carriers. and many others...
But you still cant get it..isnt it?
Newermind, I will enjoy even in game made to suite you,I just tried.
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What are you talking about? The Surcouf was in full service since 1934.
Mouse was to,(moving around garage).
So If mouse is fit to the game,this Frankenstein is too.I cant argue about polithics of implementing the exotic dead-branches of weaponry in game.
Please,be fair and try to understand my previous ilustrated post about the well-alive branch of weapon and its starter.Its a main branch of weponry,and with well tracked history into the past,that started by model XXI.
It has nothing to do with miracle or weard weapons or superweapons, its the historical path of developement that started with XXI,and in late 1944 that was a realy big step.
You are taking a stretch and worshiping at the altar of all things german must be uber.
Nope. It was still in the prototype stadium. The two prototypes were still in the testing area at Kummersdorf, serial production or service with standard armoured divisions had *not* begun when the war ended.
Project 636 diesel submarine, known to NATO as 'Kilo class'. Direct descendant of the XXI Electroboot. Known by the US Navy as the 'Black Hole' and one of its greatest nightmares, should a Kilo get in torpedo range of a CTF (not all that unlikely, given its aforementioned stealth).
Seems like the 'Electroboot' is still alive and well, something I really can't say about the Battleship, Heavy Tank, or Super-heavy Artillery. So they shouldn't be included in HOI then?
Oh wait...
And for all those who say the USN was not impressed by the XXI? In tests, it outran USN destroyers in heavy seas. Pretty impressive.
Seems like the 'Electroboot' is still alive and well, something I really can't say about the Battleship, Heavy Tank, or Super-heavy Artillery. So they shouldn't be included in HOI then?
Oh wait...
And for all those who say the USN was not impressed by the XXI? In tests, it outran USN destroyers in heavy seas. Pretty impressive.
I hope there is something like really good subs, but if youre playing, say a Germany late war scenario like '43 or '44, i doubt that you will have the resources for them. Greetz
Yes, another part of this is that many convoys were escorted not by Destroyers but by even smaller corvettes. These cheap ASW ships struggled to do 15 knots even in calm seas, and were more affected by rough sea then Fleet or Escort Destroyers were.
Of course warship targets would always have more expensive Destroyer escorts protecting them however.
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The debate isn't whether they should be in or not. They are already in HOI2. The OP was about the abilities they should have in-game.
Ohh you guys are really killing me :rofl:
it was a simple request/question to include a valuable devellopment of subs past the point where it was limited by previous HOI2 engine, to include the historical fact that subs develloped further and became an important part of the different navies in the world.
Please get over the idea that the XXI was the secret super weapon of germany or the discussion that "why does only Germany has those super secret weapons in game". The XXI was the first in a series of devellopments that lead to the modern submarines. There has to be a point where a turn is made and the XXI introduced that turn, changing the submarine from a merchant hunter and limited strike platform against war ships to an effective weapon against all surface ships, includings subs themselfs.
Now, Germany made that first step, because of its heavy investment into the technology and the "need" to have an alternative against the surface fleets of the allies. As said before it is a continous devellopement! The allies had no need for secret super weapons, all they needed were reliable weapon systems in large numbers, like the Sherman tank, the M1 Rifle, or the Fletcher Class Destroyers. They had the numbers, the logistics and resources. No need for fancy designs such as the XXI. But it is from those first fancy designs that further devellopments could be made. It is the same reason why the German Panther, the German STG44 assault rifle, or the German Jet fighters like the ME262 were used later as the basis for future generation weapon systems. Germany had to be innovative, to be successful in a war against such odds (which of course thankfully did not help).
it was a simple request/question to include a valuable devellopment of subs past the point where it was limited by previous HOI2 engine, to include the historical fact that subs develloped further and became an important part of the different navies in the world.
Please get over the idea that the XXI was the secret super weapon of germany or the discussion that "why does only Germany has those super secret weapons in game". The XXI was the first in a series of devellopments that lead to the modern submarines. There has to be a point where a turn is made and the XXI introduced that turn, changing the submarine from a merchant hunter and limited strike platform against war ships to an effective weapon against all surface ships, includings subs themselfs.
Now, Germany made that first step, because of its heavy investment into the technology and the "need" to have an alternative against the surface fleets of the allies. As said before it is a continous devellopement! The allies had no need for secret super weapons, all they needed were reliable weapon systems in large numbers, like the Sherman tank, the M1 Rifle, or the Fletcher Class Destroyers. They had the numbers, the logistics and resources. No need for fancy designs such as the XXI. But it is from those first fancy designs that further devellopments could be made. It is the same reason why the German Panther, the German STG44 assault rifle, or the German Jet fighters like the ME262 were used later as the basis for future generation weapon systems. Germany had to be innovative, to be successful in a war against such odds (which of course thankfully did not help).
Exactly,Germany must be inovative or never even try to challenge so numericaly superior enemies.
I believe if players will try to play Germany only by using AI theaters against AI,than it will be shown how numericaly inferior German armed forces were allmost allways.
Its easy to play manualy,than you can, if expirienced, defeat everything computer trows on you.
But on equal terms,your AI army against enemy AI?Your AI submarine command against enemy AI?
Here came German urgence to have advantage in quality of weapons.
I can argue here will true XXI model make a mess in atlantic if nourished and charished manualy by player.Possibly it will.Even with catastrophicaly weak sub models in HOI II,skillful players made a miracles.
But in a game for instance in which I asign Atlantic Theater AI to authomaticaly wage sub warfare,which I intend to do,here advanced sub in early 1945 means fantastic new challenge and possiblity,without fear of loosing balance.
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Nope the allies had fancy centrimetic radar that could detect a sub tower in the middle of the night in the ocean. They had specially designed teardrop shaped depth-charges that reached desired depth 3times as fast as older "Barrel" models. They had a very very fancy and secret air dropped ASW torpedo and sonar buoy to help its aircrafts detect and hunt submarines. They almost had as many fancy weapons as the Germans had, at least if your only counting fancy weapons that actually worked like the type XXI.
If you count the weapons that didn't work perhaps I could mention bats with incendiary bombs and aircraft carriers made out of ice? Both were allied secret weapons projects.
So much talk about what might have been. Why not just look at the statistics? I mean there must have been plenty of war games and simulations done during 1945-55 with subs similar to the XXI. Or maybe that is still classified?
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