thank you liebgot! Exactly what I meant, a come back of the sub that simulates real history not a dead technology of flavour.
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thank you liebgot! Exactly what I meant, a come back of the sub that simulates real history not a dead technology of flavour.
Type XXI boats were used until the late 50s by several navies in regular service and performed very well. They were not just paper designs but real ships in real service.
By your logic, it would be impossible to have any stats for any more advanced submarines than those fielded in mass quantity during the war, which is ridiculous. The game might last until 1948 and then those submarines would be fielded in large quantities, so they need stats. And the experience the "modern" world has with the Type XXI was very good indeed.
Again, never tested in actual combat. It's a black box and the developers have every right to nerf their theoretical performance to suit game balance, just like they did in HoI2.
What constitutes them performing very well?
No, I'm not saying anything like that, I'm just saying that introducing super-weapons based on paper claims is misguided.
Also, the modern experience tells us nothing. Boats of this type never sunk anything after 1945.
Hi Alex, that again is not what I meant, please get away from the XXI, its just an example and as it happend in history, it was a turningpoint in sub-devellopment. There have been many countless execersises, including cold war fleet actions with US and USSR boats. there are hundreds of books, naval reports, exercise statements etc. on the subject. It is a fact that modern subs have segnificant advantages over surface ships. You do not need a war to prove that. There are new subclasses out there being develloped right now, with super-sonic torpedo prototypes, that will again make todays ASW forces obsolete. It is a cylce and because of that cycle the player should be able to devellop in a major tech like that of the sub, which does not end up useless by the end of HOI3 tech time span. Especially not if it goes into late 50s and even 60s.
Well, actually, yes you do.
Otherwise we'd be living in the Fallout timeline right now, driving nuclear cars and drinking irradiated blue soda. Practice and theory are two different things.
iirc Type XXI was not the first submarine design to eschew cruiser hull form.
There were lots of problems with modular construction process.
Used post war for periods for economical reasons. Considering French and others used Italian ships into the 60s and 70s shall I call these the cornerstone of ship design?
If you are going to wax poetic about the Type XXI then also give credit to advanced state of ASW tactics and equipment used by allies.
One thing being left out I guess because it's unsexy non-weapon type was burst transmission capability that the Germans never got into widespread service afaik, Kurier.
There were lots of problems with modular construction process.
Used post war for periods for economical reasons. Considering French and others used Italian ships into the 60s and 70s shall I call these the cornerstone of ship design?
If you are going to wax poetic about the Type XXI then also give credit to advanced state of ASW tactics and equipment used by allies.
One thing being left out I guess because it's unsexy non-weapon type was burst transmission capability that the Germans never got into widespread service afaik, Kurier.
Ohh come on please. Talk with the next captain of a ASW frigate you see and ask him about modern fleet actions and what chances he has against a modern attack sub, nevermind finding it. I have served on a frigate and should be inclined to favor those
And I really don't want this disucssion going this way as many submarine posts before. All I would like to see in HOI3, as stated above, if you would be so kind and read through my post, is a historically correct depiction of the devellopment cycle.
A weapon type gets out of date because of superior counter measures, so it as well gets develloped further, so the countermeasures have to improve and so on.
Ohh come on please. Talk with the next captain of a ASW frigate you see and ask him about modern fleet actions and what chances he has against a modern attack sub, nevermind finding it. I have served on a frigate and should be inclined to favor those
Did you ever engage a submarine in combat? No.
Armed forces are wrong about the actual performance of their forces and weapon systems all the time. If they could correctly evaluate their performance, we'd never have a war - since both the loser and the winner would know the outcome beforehand, and would spare themselves the expense of figuring it out "for real."
I accept that and it is so very true, no war can be predicted and no equipment can be evaluated better than to have it work under war conditions. And I'm not argueing you there. But do you not want a devllopment cycle in HOI3 that somewhat comes close to history? Or would you rather have a major tech in which you specialize, lets say carrier task forces, that do not truely mirror its capabilities in the 50s and 60s?
My point is that the correct performance of late-war technology is best left to be decided based on gameplay, rather than post-war exercises.
I don't see how that equates. You would also have to to know the condition of your enemy's forces. Being able to correctly evaluate your own forces and weapons systems performance won't guarantee that you know the outcome of a war if you never realized before DoW that the enemy actually has a superior and larger military.
"If we know that our own men are in a condition to attack, but are unaware that the enemy is not open to attack, we have gone only halfway toward victory."
True and I think we were just talking past each other and there were a few here going again, talking of the XXI super weapon. That's why those sub discussions get out of hand so fast. No one really knows, because those subs, including modern ones never have been in real major actions...as you pointed out correctly. And especially for game purposes I would like to see a tech investment, that is not wasted in the end. See, you are the player not the AI, so you know beforehand where the sub techs lead you. So why investing, as Germany or USSR, heavily into Sub techs, knowing you will end up in a weapon that is good in the first three years against merchants and after that you can basically throw it away, as it was the case in HOI2. But in real life, those sub technologies were develloped further and and kept useful, as we see in history. The modern subs play an important role in ruling the waves. Of course we can't predict how well, as you said yourself, nevertheless, the cylce of devellopment goes on.
Like Porcupine1981 said. Type XXI was used in fair quantities over long term actually. The allies had 4 type XXIs in service for up to 20years and the Soviets are estimated to have had as many as 20 in service. Its performable was also well established by the Germans before the war ended since they had many uboats completed but not yet finished with their long crew training and trials. It is during these trials that the performance is established.
Their performance in all aspects except beeing fired upon by the enemy can be tested and evaluated without a war. Id say for starters being able to reach the "paper specifications" and serve for 20 years would be a good argument for them performing very well.
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100% agree - weapon development in war (or peace) is driven by need (often desperate need!) with the "weaker" side often trying hardest to mitigate its weakness or compensate for the other sides "strengths".
Given that brilliance is never restricted to one side in conflict any significant step in weapons capability from one side is always matched (copied or bettered) by the other side - this continues until the shooting stops - and then restarts the next day as people start preparing for the "next war".
German Wondersubs in the Atlantic were just as good as the air/intel recon leading them to the convoys. No intel, no prey.
IRL the (anti-)subwar was a combined arms war.
Hopefully HOI3 will reflect this. But then the player better also be able to choose convoy routes himself, which he won't.
Regards
IRL the (anti-)subwar was a combined arms war.
Hopefully HOI3 will reflect this. But then the player better also be able to choose convoy routes himself, which he won't.
Regards
Did battleship proove as weapon in ww2,orr, in late ww2, or post ww2?
What was with battleships after ww2 ?
However you will have supehaevy nuclear battleships in HOI III if you want?
Did you ever see superhaevy nuclear battleship smashing carriers arround????
Did superhaevy tank prooved in ww2, or after?Those 200 toon beasts that scared only birds while test driving?
How come that you people find is logical to say that submarines,who flourished after based upon model XXI design has no wright to be represented in a game in their glourious comeback in 1945,and in the same time existance of supefleets of battleships and superhave behemoot tanks after 1945 has no problem to fitt in your view of reality?
Where am I wrong?
EDIT-sub XXI design has porooven within towsands of subs built from ww2 aftermath to this day.Its a mother of all subs after ww2.
If design of XXI wasnt revolutionary,and if subs were not recognised as ultimate weapon after ww2,than today we will have no subs.However subs flourished after ww2,becouse something supstantialy changed in their nature. This change came with XXI.
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I remember the last discussion, I spent like seven pages literally yelling at this guy that introducing German prototypes was an incredibly bad idea...
The biggest reason why I am against these prototype submarines is because the posters who are for it make them out to be these powerful ships that should be able to devastate the surface fleets and merchant convoys when they have flotillas of them floating around.
Furthermore, why does the only country, Germany, should get nation-unique submarines that should have 3x better stats than their predecessors, being what, 1940 Submarine? I just find it stupid and pointless.
I understand their advanced technology with increased knots, can fire missiles out of themselves, whatever. But I don't see why they even deserve their own research branch in Hearts of Iron 3. It existed in real life - as a prototype, but this is a video game, and Germany should NOT have their own super submarine when in fact the game is never completely historical anyway.
You guys always end up making this into a discussion of real life statistics, calculations when you can't translate how it would work and be balanced in the game... Hearts of Iron 3. Matter of factly, the Soviet Union should get the IS-3...
The biggest reason why I am against these prototype submarines is because the posters who are for it make them out to be these powerful ships that should be able to devastate the surface fleets and merchant convoys when they have flotillas of them floating around.
Furthermore, why does the only country, Germany, should get nation-unique submarines that should have 3x better stats than their predecessors, being what, 1940 Submarine? I just find it stupid and pointless.
I understand their advanced technology with increased knots, can fire missiles out of themselves, whatever. But I don't see why they even deserve their own research branch in Hearts of Iron 3. It existed in real life - as a prototype, but this is a video game, and Germany should NOT have their own super submarine when in fact the game is never completely historical anyway.
You guys always end up making this into a discussion of real life statistics, calculations when you can't translate how it would work and be balanced in the game... Hearts of Iron 3. Matter of factly, the Soviet Union should get the IS-3...
Who said only Germany should get them? I certainly didn't I don't think many other here that want to see a XXI techlevel weapon in the game did either. Japan had submarines capable of 19 knots submerged by the end of the war aswell and anyone that kept developing better submarines to avoid Better ASW, radar and airplanes would have too.
Of course Germany shouldn be exclusive.
As I sad around 1945 was time in which it was obvious that submersibles need turnaround in aproach.Its just like in the same time jet propulsion was obvious to enyone informed its the future,as well as nuclear fision.
Allso only true efective countermeasure against XXI is another one XXI level of sub.So such sub must be balance of its own.
But I am asking someone to caculate to me the stats of nuclear battleship in 1946?
Thank you for that calculation.
I will calculate electroboat submarine technology for my self ,its a 300% more powerfull than standard ww2 submarine in atack and defence than prevous level of tech.
One is anchored in Bremershawen Germany,an information for "black box" theroeticians about nonexisting ship.
It was ready for use in early 1945 in this wery same world we are living in.
Two were extensively tested in tactical manouvers by US navy
in 1947.Those two XXI were included in service of US Navy and still someone argues about hypothethical submarine stats???
.And ,finely,all subs after were designed after this,be it US, Russian, French of British..
If game cant give us that, but has calculation of stats of nuclear superbattleship or 200 tonn tank, than I believe quite balancing"hypothetical " mod will be needed.. paradoxaly called..true XXI.
I hope I will have enough skill to offer my little XXI mod,in any case I will do it for myself and enjoy at least something exciting in post 1944 naval warfare.
This doesnt count of course if someone maybe cross over some serious arguments about XXI posted in this forum for many times.
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