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grommile

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I think yes, honestly. And I think the part of the solution could be to 1. revamp the revolt mechanic 2. (and especially) make more attractive for the player to release other countries than to take everything for himself.
The only way I can think of to achieve (2) without some kind of "congrats, you have won the game, stop playing" cap on the effectiveness of conquest is to make Release Country cost zero DIP and be much, much cheaper in warscore.

Which doesn't actually sound like a good idea :(
 
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I mean, Europe at the end of the time period was pretty much a handful of blobs and then the very occasional minor like Switzerland.

Regardless, the only way you can make them play like 'not an aggressive player' while not making them play worse is to make other forms of gameplay not terrible, both on a 'is this a strong play' level and a 'is this more fun than watching paint dry' level. The AI doesn't care about the second point, but it's an important point to address in a game where the playerbase blobs because there's nothing else to do.
That's a faulty point of view and you know it: up to Napoleon, most of the minors of Central Europe were still there. Hell, aside from inheritances there were little changes in borders in Europe, up to Napoleon - France conquered Alsace-Lorraine, Poland was partitioned, the Ottomans expanded. That's more or less everything that made a real impression on border changes. And while the Congress of Vienna reduced the nations of Germany drastically, there were still a lot of them around. Really, history saw no blobbing on the EU scale, and what happened didn't happen via conquest.
 
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mursolini

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That's a faulty point of view and you know it: up to Napoleon, most of the minors of Central Europe were still there. Hell, aside from inheritances there were little changes in borders in Europe, up to Napoleon - France conquered Alsace-Lorraine, Poland was partitioned, the Ottomans expanded. That's more or less everything that made a real impression on border changes. And while the Congress of Vienna reduced the nations of Germany drastically, there were still a lot of them around. Really, history saw no blobbing on the EU scale, and what happened didn't happen via conquest.
But then you look at Timurids/Mugals, conquest of China, Spanish conquests in Americas, Ottoman conquest of Egypt,..

Europe really was a special snowflake during the period, it isn`t really larger than China, arguably it is more interconnected and theoretically much easier to rule due to abundant naval logistic.
 
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"Anti-blob programmer" isn't part of my job description, and therefore the work has to be spread out over time as I'm mostly tied up on other stuff. I would also like everything to happen at once so I understand where you're coming from, but in practice it's going to take quite a long time, especially because fundamental gameplay as it is encourages blobbery.

Yeah sorry i just meant that you wanted to address the issue in the long run , and i'm really happy about it .. i know you have to do lots of other things , i just hope you'll find some time for this eventually :)
 
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Arizal

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The only way I can think of to achieve (2) without some kind of "congrats, you have won the game, stop playing" cap on the effectiveness of conquest is to make Release Country cost zero DIP and be much, much cheaper in warscore.

Which doesn't actually sound like a good idea :(

Why do you think this isn't a good idea? In my opinion, there should be cost for the player when he does an action which directly benefits him. If you are giving provinces to another country, you aren't strenghtening your army. You are helping a potential friend, which could also become a potential ennemy. You are harming a country which could also be of help to you. If Europe was during a long time a balance of power region, it is because each country wasn't just conquering stuff. They found it less tiresome and less dangerous (diplomatically and internally) to let other states manage lands. Even Napoleon created a bunch of "sister republics" instead of taking direct control over much of Europe. Admittedly, he designed those territories as client states, but again he was the one who came the closest to control all of Europe in 400 years.

In fact, such a change should come with a more fluid diplomacy. It should be possible to completely reverse alliances in a few years, as happened in the XVIIIth century between France and Austria and between the United Kingdom and Prussia.
 
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grommile

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Why do you think this isn't a good idea? In my opinion, there should be cost for the player when he does an action which directly benefits him.
There is very little you can demand in a war in a single-player game that is worth more, in the long run, than shattering the Commonwealth.
 
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Freudia

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There is very little you can demand in a war in a single-player game that is worth more, in the long run, than shattering the Commonwealth.

To expand on this, you can functionally dismantle every relevant threat under Grommile's proposed 'idea' (that he admits is not necessarily good for gameplay). Carve France into however many French minors, carve Castile into however many Spanish minors, force Austria to release Styria, destroy Lithuania, so on and so forth. You'd just make Europe a bunch of minors instead of a handful of majors, which would make conquest be even more of a joke. Chain full annexation wars, only gated by your admin points.
 
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WeissRaben

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But then you look at Timurids/Mugals, conquest of China, Spanish conquests in Americas, Ottoman conquest of Egypt,..

Europe really was a special snowflake during the period, it isn`t really larger than China, arguably it is more interconnected and theoretically much easier to rule due to abundant naval logistic.
The conquest of the Ming and the Mamluks need to be separated from the other examples: it was a takeover of a whole collapsing nation, and I've already pointed out in the past that something needs to be done about them. I've got nothing against colonial conquest, either, but it should also be noted that most of the massive conquests out of Europe happened in depopulated America, over the span of forty to a hundred sixty years, with India being an example of how an attempt of conquest wholesale would go (at best, with the best diplomacy, shrewd conquest, and great general, requiring decades at the end of the timeframe to be even partly done). The white tiger is the Mughal Empire, but - while such a thing should be obviously possible - it shouldn't happen all over the world, and it shouldn't result in the partition of Eurasia between few powers.
 

grommile

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The conquest of the Ming and the Mamluks need to be separated from the other examples: it was a takeover of a whole collapsing nation,
I wasn't aware the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt was collapsing before Selim the Stern decided to stab them in the face and take all their land.
 
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WeissRaben

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I wasn't aware the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt was collapsing before Selim the Stern decided to stab them in the face and take all their land.
Before? No. But the war itself caused the destruction of most of the Egyptian army (high WE), the Ottomans were welcomed in most of the Levant as freeing them from the Mamluks (high unrest, unaccepted culture), and not one but two Mamluk ruler fell in battle or were captured and killed (-4 stability). A complete, absolute loss is way too easy right now, but it's undeniable that the Mamluk sultanate melted when the Ottomans invaded. The lowering income from the Indian trade route (which did not collapse, as many think, but still suffered) didn't help.
 

mursolini

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The conquest of the Ming and the Mamluks need to be separated from the other examples: it was a takeover of a whole collapsing nation, and I've already pointed out in the past that something needs to be done about them. I've got nothing against colonial conquest, either, but it should also be noted that most of the massive conquests out of Europe happened in depopulated America, over the span of forty to a hundred sixty years, with India being an example of how an attempt of conquest wholesale would go (at best, with the best diplomacy, shrewd conquest, and great general, requiring decades at the end of the timeframe to be even partly done). The white tiger is the Mughal Empire, but - while such a thing should be obviously possible - it shouldn't happen all over the world, and it shouldn't result in the partition of Eurasia between few powers.
But that is a thing, Europe was filled with collapsing states, the very obvious examples would be Poland-Lituinia, which, shared the fate of Egypt more or less. There was Spanish succesion, that could result in huge France-Spain, with Spain being quite weak, and, to a point, collapsing. There were plenty of problems with Russia as well, 1612 Polish invasion could potentially wipe the country out, if things would go more favourable for Poles.

I really, really, really can`t pinpoint the exact reason why Europe didn`t become similar to China, or didn`t get ruled by an analouge of Ottoman Empire. There really seem none to suggest it was plain impossible. Hence the argument for very stale borders in Europe basically boils down to "that is how it happened". But, it could go another way, there were both turning points, and examples of states in other regions taking similar opportunities and succeding.
 

Viperswhip

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I'm aware that it's possible, what I was referring to was how the AI is completely incompetent at it. Tired of the only three threats being France, Austria, and PLC. Castile should be able to hold it's own instead of turning blue and red every game. If it doesn't get killed from falling behind in tech, disasters, and lack of good allies, it gets destroyed by Aragon declaring independence literally days after Iberian Wedding. If they are going to railroad in a historical event for flavor, that's fine with me, but at least do it so it isn't just a free pass to kill Castile yet again.

As it currently stands, I would never recommend Castile to a new player. There's too much of a rough and precarious start for it if you don't know what your doing and Iberian Wedding is a newbie trap. I honestly feel a lot of it would be fixed if they buffed Castile's development, lowered "Relative Strength to Overlord" so it isn't so bloated, or add a historical friends modifier between Castile and Aragon after the Iberian Wedding fires, similar to the historical rivalry from Swedish Constitution between Denmark and Sweden. Aragon shouldn't want to rip Castile's throat out days after saying "I do". It's stupid.

I think because people think Castile = Spain, but Castile is not that powerful at the start of the game. Aragon is, once you include Naples, more powerful than Castile at the start of the game.

If you use a later start date, I think you will get what you are looking for. But let's look at Castile in 1444. You have a duke trying to marry the heir off to another country so she won't inherit Castile, Muslims in the south, an unstable relationship with Portugal, and a lapsed betrothal to Aragon.

The whole region was in flux, it wasn't until Isabel started kicking people to the curb that Spain became powerful, and frankly, she had a good husband, if he was an asshat, Spain would have crumbled.

So, while it might be nice to have a counter to France, Castile/Spain didn't reach that height...ever really, but it was a later date.
 
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