Last Khanate - Kazakh Khanate

[Kazakh Khanate]

Good afternoon. I would like to draw the developers' attention to the forgotten region of Central Asia, especially the Kazakh Khanate. As we know, Kazakh Khanate is the only fragment of the Golden Horde that survived until the 19th century. But for some reason the game does not allow the Kazakhs to recreate the Golden Horde. Secondly, the Kazakh Khanate appeared in 1465, dissatisfied with the harsh policies of Abulkhair Khan, the Kazakh sultans trekked away to the land of Mogulistan (in the game they are represented by Chagataids) and created their Khanate. The short-lived Uzbek Khanate was mostly populated by Kazakh tribes, and after Abulkhair's death immediately became part of the newly formed Kazakh Khanate. Also want to point out that in the west Nogai Horde after the Russian expansion, broke up and all his tribes joined the Kazakhs, only a small portion of the Nogai have migrated to the Caucasus mountains and lives there to this day, but languages and culture of the Nogai and Kazakhs are the same. But in the game they belong to different cultures. Although the Tatar language is also very close to the Kazakh language. In the game, the Kazakhs belong to the Altai culture and are united with the Mongolian cultures, although the Kazakhs to the Mongols neither in language nor in culture have any relation, also has no relation to the Yuan Empire. Also, the Kazakhs consisted of three tribal unions, the so-called "zhuzes". In the 19th century, the Kazakh Khanate split into 3 zhuzes, and had their own khans, but united under a single khan against enemies, especially the Jungars. Senior zhuz - tribes in the south of Kazakhstan, which used to be part of Moghulistan (Chagataids), Middle zhuz - tribes in the Center, east and north of Kazakhstan (the most numerous), Junior zhuz - tribes in the west (it also included actually Nogais themselves and became Kazakhs). And gradually these zhuzes in turn became part of the Russian Empire of their own free will.
Therefore, I ask to make the following mechanics:
1. The rapid disintegration of the Uzbek Khanate and the emergence appearance of the Kazakh Khanate (as in the game Uzbek Khanate is too long-lived and strong).
2. Give the Kazakhs the opportunity to recreate the Golden Horde (because they are the direct heirs of this nomadic empire) and remove the decision to create a Yuan dynasty (because anyway, according to the game Kazakhs because of Sunni Islam can not become emperor of China, to create Yuan, and none of the Kazakh tribes were not part of this empire).
3. Transition of the Kazakh culture from Altaic to the Tatar group (to create the Golden Horde). Or better the unification of the Tatar cultures and Kazakh, Uzbek, Kyrgyz, and Turkmen cultures into a single cultural union (e.g. Turkic, or better the Turan Union), because all of that nations has same language and religion, they are actually Turkic nations, not Mongol.
4. Make higher development of cities in south of Kazakhstan along Syr-Darya river like as Turkestan, Sozaq, Syganaq. Because according to history, Kazakh and Uzbek khans fought with each other for these cities. They were from the same dynasty, sometimes they fought each other, sometimes they united, for example, against the Jungars or the Shah of Persia, Ishmael.
5. Especially develop the city of Turkestan. Because it is the cultural and spiritual center not only of the Kazakh people, but of all the Turkic people. Because the Mausoleum of Khoja Ahmed Yasawi, built by Timur, is located there. Make a great project there. Khoja Ahmed Yassawi was a Sufi preacher in the 12th century and it was he who spread Islam among the Turkic peoples (he is even a holy man for Turks as well, Ottoman Turks lived in southern Kazakhstan in those days). And in the same mausoleum was the residence of the Kazakh khans, they are buried there as well.
4. Give an opportunity through the decision to assimilate the Nogais culture after the conquest into the Kazakhs.
5. Make the decision Kazakhs to become the vassal or mark of Russia in end of game if Kazakh Khanate not so strong and has low development (as it was with the Crimean Khanate to the Ottomans).
6. Rename Kazakhs into Kazakh Khanate.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I agree that Kazakhs (and probably kirghiz of tien shan) should move to the tatar group, due to cultural reasons such as way of life, recent historical legacy of the golden horde, also making golden horde a more appropriate formable for kazakh khanate than yuan is.

Uzbek though should form a culture group with tajik, uyghur, turkmen, pashtun.

I disagree with the notion of mongolic and turkic being distinct groups, in the way it's portrayed in this thread, turco-mongol culture were deeply intertwined, so the language is not reason to divide the culture groups by.

There are a handful of cultures in the larger turco-mongol tradition that are little bit harder to place, particularly the mughals of the mughal khanate, being nomadic in contrast to the settled turks of the tarim (ancestors of modern uyghur) and the old uyghurs which are currently portrayed as oirat (kara del and sarig yogir)

 

[Omogoy]

Moghulistan will be a mixed nation of settled Uighurs and Mongols of the Dughlat tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dughlats.
Moghulistan also cooperated with the Oirats, including in numerous wars: against the Kazakhs, against the Manchurian expansion.

The Turks became Muslims, the Mongols and South Siberian Turks became Buddhists. A centuries-old war of extermination continued between the Kazakhs and the Oirats, so it is unlikely that the Kazakhs had additional forces to restore the power of the Golden Horde.

 

[Omogoy]

The Oirats did not at all seek to restore the Yuan Empire, all their forces were regional: 1) the unification of Mongolia, 2) expansion to the west, up to the Caucasus. The tribes rushing to the west soon lost contact with those who remained in Dzungaria.
Even if they had conquered China, their dynasty would have had a different Chinese name because they were not descendants of Genghis Khan.
At the beginning of the game, that is, by 1450, the Eastern Mongols had already been repeatedly defeated in an attempt to restore the Yuan empire.

 

[AirikrStrife]

You are overapplying modern thinking and modern ideas of statehood on tribal states in the early modern era

Oirats were not a unified force except when a leader managed to unite them, such as essen taishi, same for other mongols with leaders like Mandukhai &Altan or Dayan Khan. They did not directly strive to restore Yuan, they had no chance of fully invading china so had a more pragmatic approach, but if they could they probably would, maybe they'd call their dynasty somethign else, or they wouldn't (like Nurhaci originally establishing a new Jin dynasty)

2) expansion to the west, up to the Caucasus. The tribes rushing to the west soon lost contact with those who remained in Dzungaria.

Going to the caucasus is not really regional unification...and it's not like the kalmyk migration westward was a strategic choice by a unified oirat polity, it was one tribe deciding to move westward, never as part of a political scheme

The Turks became Muslims, the Mongols and South Siberian Turks became Buddhists

The turks became muslim, except some turks appearently.
Also mongols became muslims, though most of those mongols also switched to speaking turkic languages in the west as there were too few mongol speakers, golden horde, chagatai khanate were states founded by mongols, speaking turkic languages having a distinct identity based on their genghisid mongol heritage, turkish was just a more practical language and we can really talk about a turco-mongol culture, which at the frontiers to the settled civilizations to the south became turco-persian, i.e. the Shaybanids and Mughals

 

[JKiller96]

The Sibir, Kazakh, and Uzbek cultures existing as they are now in game in 1444 are probably pretty wrong. But this is all tricky since each tribe who put their allegiances towards the Abulkhairids, Ibak Khan of Sibir, or the leaders of the seceding Kazakh faction may have had their own form of language and culture (and even variations of religion, such as Tengriism, Sufism, and orthodox Sunnism between groups; not all Kazakhs/Uzbeks became Muslim at this point). There could have been more differences between two tribes of Kazakh allegiance than there were of two tribes of Uzbek allegiance. Kazakhs and Uzbeks as modern ethnicities are much more clear (albeit still complex) than in 1444, when these two ethnicities were not a thing.

Uzbek, at least where it is in game now, should be a mix of Chagatai (with Timurids being of Chagatai culture; Timurids being Uzbek is a bit problematic) and Tajik culture, and the areas of Kazakh and some other smaller areas should be Uzbek, with the opportunity of Kazakh culture to appear, preferably first in the territory of Chagatai, as was the first-held territories of Kerei and Janibeg. The emergence of Kazakhs (and to a lesser degree, Uzbeks) as a more distinct ethnic group was highly dependent on the political situation both internally and externally. An event in 1468 should allow Chagatai to turn its northwestern provinces (around Almaty) to Kazakh, at least.

The situation after is still a bit complicated, since Chagatai would ideally blend with the leftover Uzbek culture, but this isn't CK3. This is a case that cannot be properly represented, even in this simulation form.

The complexity of it all is wacky when you consider the founders of the Kazakh Khanate were sons of a ruler of the late Golden Horde, Barak Khan. Was Barak Khan a Kazakh? Probably not... was he a Turko-Mongol? Yes. Both the Abulkhairids and early Kazakhs were Turko-Mongols (with the Uzbeks adopting the Turko-Persian route later, as AirikrStrike notes), which is the best way to sum up the situation. And with that, I agree with the OP's suggestion that Kazakhs should be able to form the Golden Horde, since the founders of the Kazakh Khanate themselves were sons of a ruler of the Golden Horde.

EDIT: Also, I want to say that I generally disagree with OP. The only reason I believe Kazakh and Uzbek should be merged at start is because of the complexity of the situation. As many in the academic field would note, popular culture is different than the elite (i.e. of the Khans and their immediate court). Because of this, even though nearly all of these khans (Ibak, Abulkhair, Ulugh Muhammad, Janibeg, Kerei) all were essentially apart of this elite Turko-Mongol culture, many of the clans (those who would make up the popular) who were tossed about in regards to whose Orda they belonged to had vastly different cultures. A Nogai is certainly different from a Bulghar, and the tribesman near Balqash is certainly different from a Mishar Tatar. A Turanian union is ridiculous. Extremely ridiculous; it's essentially on the same level as conspiracy-theory Fascist non-sense.

 

[Omogoy]

You are overapplying modern thinking and modern ideas of statehood on tribal states in the early modern era

Oirats were not a unified force except when a leader managed to unite them, such as essen taishi, same for other mongols with leaders like Mandukhai &Altan or Dayan Khan. They did not directly strive to restore Yuan, they had no chance of fully invading china so had a more pragmatic approach, but if they could they probably would, maybe they'd call their dynasty somethign else, or they wouldn't (like Nurhaci originally establishing a new Jin dynasty)


Going to the caucasus is not really regional unification...and it's not like the kalmyk migration westward was a strategic choice by a unified oirat polity, it was one tribe deciding to move westward, never as part of a political scheme



The turks became muslim, except some turks appearently.
Also mongols became muslims, though most of those mongols also switched to speaking turkic languages in the west as there were too few mongol speakers, golden horde, chagatai khanate were states founded by mongols, speaking turkic languages having a distinct identity based on their genghisid mongol heritage, turkish was just a more practical language and we can really talk about a turco-mongol culture, which at the frontiers to the settled civilizations to the south became turco-persian, i.e. the Shaybanids and Mughals

No, it's not. The homeland of the Turks is the land of Mongolia, so Mongolia is better called East Turkestan. For many centuries the Mongols were vassals of the Turkic states and were at a lower level of social development.
The Mongols mongolized Mongolia starting from the IX-X century after the arrival of the Khitans there. Their social structure was different from that of the Uyghur Khaganate, that is, the Uyghurs were more prone to settling, built many cities in East Turkestan, then the Mongols did not build cities. Turkic traditions in Mongolia tended to fade because the Mongol colonists who occupied the empty lands had their own tradition. Thus, if the Mongols of Genghis Khan still remembered the tradition of the Khitan, and they remembered the Uighur, then there are no Oirats and Dzungars. If you read the work of Mahmud Kashgari, then the Turks remembered their kinship in the X century, that is, he compiled the first comparative description of the Turkic languages, starting from the lands of the Khazars and Bulgars, ending with the Uighurs.
The Mongol invasion did not change the ethnic picture of West Turkestan because there were few Mongols there. The Oirats completely changed the ethnic picture, they replaced the Turkic population, that is, they exterminated, expelled, and seized the lands themselves. Their entire policy was directed against the dynasty of Genghis Khan, they were the gravediggers of the fragments of the Golden Horde, starting from the Siberian Khanate, the Kazakhs, the Nogai Horde, ending with the Crimean Khanate. That is, the Western Turkic peoples fell under the blow of the hammer of Muscovy and the anvil from the powerful resettlement of the Oirats. By the way, alliances were often concluded between the Oirats and Muscovy. Also, the Oirats did not completely break off relations with their mother country in Dzungaria. So they created the congresses of their sovereigns against the Manchurian threat or the outstanding work of Zai-Pandita in translating religious Tibetan texts in the Volga horde of Kalmyks.
Partially analogous to the replacement of the Turkic population by the Mongols is the expansion of Lithuania. Lithuania for a long time was in vassal relations in relation to Rus, but then began to expand at the expense of Russian lands. During the time of Vitovt, Lithuania was close to the destruction of Muscovy. The Battle of Vorskla changed everything.

 

[Omogoy]

General Mongolian enlighteners appeared among the Mongols much later than the Turks. The name of an outstanding figure from the Oirats, Zaya Pandita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaya_Pandita, is known.

 

[JKiller96]

The Mongol invasion did not change the ethnic picture of West Turkestan because there were few Mongols there.

That is a large claim, depending on what you call "West Turkestan" or "East Turkestan". The ethnic picture most certainly did change, and it changed the "ethnic picture" all the way west to Hungary. The best documentation of this is in Hungary, Iran, and Afghanistan, where groups migrating from the aforementioned Mongol invasion fled to. I am not quite sure what your point is, to be honest. Mongols didn't "Mongolicize" all of Mongolia, if that is what you are saying.

At this point in time land control wasn't very important, it was about controlling people. A single horde could contain both Mongol and Turkic as well as Turko-Mongol tribes. It is a hard argument to make that there was an active effort in Mongolicizing anything or that Mongolia underwent an active process of propagating their culture, especially only within the bounds of Mongolia. This is definitely a conflation of the modern with the past.

 

[Omogoy]

That is a large claim, depending on what you call "West Turkestan" or "East Turkestan". The ethnic picture most certainly did change, and it changed the "ethnic picture" all the way west to Hungary. The best documentation of this is in Hungary, Iran, and Afghanistan, where groups migrating from the aforementioned Mongol invasion fled to. I am not quite sure what your point is, to be honest. Mongols didn't "Mongolicize" all of Mongolia, if that is what you are saying.

At this point in time land control wasn't very important, it was about controlling people. A single horde could contain both Mongol and Turkic as well as Turko-Mongol tribes. It is a hard argument to make that there was an active effort in Mongolicizing anything or that Mongolia underwent an active process of propagating their culture, especially only within the bounds of Mongolia. This is definitely a conflation of the modern with the past.

Okay, I'll explain.
In the great western campaign of the Mongols, only the troops of the Mongols acted without a family, which formed the state of Jochi. There were no more than 30 thousand soldiers, most of whom returned back to Mongolia after the campaign. The rest quickly became Turkicized, then in the struggle between the Christian-Nestorian and Muslim parties inside the Jochi ulus (in your opinion, the Golden Horde), the Muslims won.
More than 300-400 thousand Oirats participated in the resettlement of the Oirats to the west, who did not return to Dzungaria, but remained to live there. That is, they changed the Turkic population to the Mongolian. They have not changed their faith. There is still a remnant of them, which is called the Republic of Kalmykia. Most of the Oirats tried to return back to Dzungaria so as not to be subjects of Russia, but died along the way.

 

[Omogoy]

Mongolia became purely Mongolian only in the X and XII centuries. Until that time, the Mongols were a purely peripheral ethnic group that did not influence Turkic history in any way. Just like the Tungus, the Jurzhchens.
In EU IV there is the region of Solon. So all the Mongolian peoples originally lived there, from there they bred and populated Mongolia.
Of course, there are common words between the Mongols and the Turks, but the Jurchens also have the same common Turkic words.

Turkic peoples inhabited all the lands of Western Turkestan and Eastern Turkestan, which are visible on this map

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

That is a large claim, depending on what you call "West Turkestan" or "East Turkestan". The ethnic picture most certainly did change, and it changed the "ethnic picture" all the way west to Hungary. The best documentation of this is in Hungary, Iran, and Afghanistan, where groups migrating from the aforementioned Mongol invasion fled to. I am not quite sure what your point is, to be honest. Mongols didn't "Mongolicize" all of Mongolia, if that is what you are saying.

At this point in time land control wasn't very important, it was about controlling people. A single horde could contain both Mongol and Turkic as well as Turko-Mongol tribes. It is a hard argument to make that there was an active effort in Mongolicizing anything or that Mongolia underwent an active process of propagating their culture, especially only within the bounds of Mongolia. This is definitely a conflation of the modern with the past.

I would also like to add that the Uighurs and Uzbeks, who are combined with the Mongols in the game, are culturally very different from nomadic peoples. They built cities and were engaged in trade and farming in cities such as Kashgar, Khotan, Samarkand, Bukhara. Also the Kazakh tribes, not all of them were nomads. The southern Kazakh tribes built such thriving cities as Turkestan(Yassi), Sozak, Syganak, Otrar (Farab), Sayram (Isfijab) and Taraz. These are the cities of the great silk road. Kazakh tribes were culturally divided into "Dala qazaqtary" (steppe/nomadic kazakhs, and "Qala qazaqtary" (urban Kazakhs/agriculturalists, predominantly the tribes of the Senior Juz living on the banks of the Syrdarya River). The urban Kazakh tribes had a strong Uzbek-Persian influence as well as Islam.

 

[Brunwulf]

I had proposed back before that sibir was under personnal union .