Last Khanate - Kazakh Khanate

[Kazakh Khanate]

Good afternoon. I would like to draw the developers' attention to the forgotten region of Central Asia, especially the Kazakh Khanate. As we know, Kazakh Khanate is the only fragment of the Golden Horde that survived until the 19th century. But for some reason the game does not allow the Kazakhs to recreate the Golden Horde. Secondly, the Kazakh Khanate appeared in 1465, dissatisfied with the harsh policies of Abulkhair Khan, the Kazakh sultans trekked away to the land of Mogulistan (in the game they are represented by Chagataids) and created their Khanate. The short-lived Uzbek Khanate was mostly populated by Kazakh tribes, and after Abulkhair's death immediately became part of the newly formed Kazakh Khanate. Also want to point out that in the west Nogai Horde after the Russian expansion, broke up and all his tribes joined the Kazakhs, only a small portion of the Nogai have migrated to the Caucasus mountains and lives there to this day, but languages and culture of the Nogai and Kazakhs are the same. But in the game they belong to different cultures. Although the Tatar language is also very close to the Kazakh language. In the game, the Kazakhs belong to the Altai culture and are united with the Mongolian cultures, although the Kazakhs to the Mongols neither in language nor in culture have any relation, also has no relation to the Yuan Empire. Also, the Kazakhs consisted of three tribal unions, the so-called "zhuzes". In the 19th century, the Kazakh Khanate split into 3 zhuzes, and had their own khans, but united under a single khan against enemies, especially the Jungars. Senior zhuz - tribes in the south of Kazakhstan, which used to be part of Moghulistan (Chagataids), Middle zhuz - tribes in the Center, east and north of Kazakhstan (the most numerous), Junior zhuz - tribes in the west (it also included actually Nogais themselves and became Kazakhs). And gradually these zhuzes in turn became part of the Russian Empire of their own free will.
Therefore, I ask to make the following mechanics:
1. The rapid disintegration of the Uzbek Khanate and the emergence appearance of the Kazakh Khanate (as in the game Uzbek Khanate is too long-lived and strong).
2. Give the Kazakhs the opportunity to recreate the Golden Horde (because they are the direct heirs of this nomadic empire) and remove the decision to create a Yuan dynasty (because anyway, according to the game Kazakhs because of Sunni Islam can not become emperor of China, to create Yuan, and none of the Kazakh tribes were not part of this empire).
3. Transition of the Kazakh culture from Altaic to the Tatar group (to create the Golden Horde). Or better the unification of the Tatar cultures and Kazakh, Uzbek, Kyrgyz, and Turkmen cultures into a single cultural union (e.g. Turkic, or better the Turan Union), because all of that nations has same language and religion, they are actually Turkic nations, not Mongol.
4. Make higher development of cities in south of Kazakhstan along Syr-Darya river like as Turkestan, Sozaq, Syganaq. Because according to history, Kazakh and Uzbek khans fought with each other for these cities. They were from the same dynasty, sometimes they fought each other, sometimes they united, for example, against the Jungars or the Shah of Persia, Ishmael.
5. Especially develop the city of Turkestan. Because it is the cultural and spiritual center not only of the Kazakh people, but of all the Turkic people. Because the Mausoleum of Khoja Ahmed Yasawi, built by Timur, is located there. Make a great project there. Khoja Ahmed Yassawi was a Sufi preacher in the 12th century and it was he who spread Islam among the Turkic peoples (he is even a holy man for Turks as well, Ottoman Turks lived in southern Kazakhstan in those days). And in the same mausoleum was the residence of the Kazakh khans, they are buried there as well.
4. Give an opportunity through the decision to assimilate the Nogais culture after the conquest into the Kazakhs.
5. Make the decision Kazakhs to become the vassal or mark of Russia in end of game if Kazakh Khanate not so strong and has low development (as it was with the Crimean Khanate to the Ottomans).
6. Rename Kazakhs into Kazakh Khanate.

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

In attachment you see Mausoleum of Khoja Akhmed Yassawi which is in UNESCO herritage.

 

[Omogoy]

This is true. But paradoxes united the uncombinable cultures of East Asia into one culture. For example, Solon, where the highly developed Daurs, whose ancestors the Khitans created the Liao Empire, are presented as Tungus, who were hunters, fishermen and reindeer herders.
It's like combining the Swedes and the Saami into one culture - Scandinavian.
The Nogais were not Kazakhs, and the Siberian Tatars were not Kazakhs either. The name Kazakh appeared only in 1465. It would probably be better to call their culture Kypchak (or in Western European - Cuman) culture.
The Turkic language - yes, it was the same for the Oghuz and for the Kypchaks. Separate languages other than the common Turkic language are only the Chuvash and Yakut languages.

 

[Omogoy]

I advocate that the Uzbeks break up into 1) Siberian Khanate, 2) Uzbeks or in another way Chagatai, 3) Kazakh zhuze.

 

[Omogoy]

Remove the name Chagatai from Moghulistan, and assign only to the inhabitants of the western part, that is, the Uzbeks.
Here's what Wikipedia says about ithttps://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Моголистан:
After the collapse of the Chagatai ulus into two separate states in the middle of the XIV century, the term "Chagatai" was preserved only for the western state (the state of Timur) and its population. Due to mutual hostility, the inhabitants of the two newly formed states called each other different pejorative names, namely: the Chagatai called the Mughals - Jete (from the Turkic "robber"), and the Mughals of the Chagatays called Karaunas (from the Mongolian "metis").

 

[noldorin]

It is not true that a large part of the Nogays joined the Kazakh khanate. In the Crimean khanate, there was a large number of nogays. For a time, they became so powerful that they became the shakers of the throne of Crimea. Khantemir is their most recognizable leader. I suggest you gather information about the Crimean Nogais and the Budzhak Horde. in the 19th and 20th centuries. Some of the Crimean, Kazan and Nogai peoples migrated to Anatolia and settled.

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

It is not true that a large part of the Nogays joined the Kazakh khanate. In the Crimean khanate, there was a large number of nogays. For a time, they became so powerful that they became the shakers of the throne of Crimea. Khantemir is their most recognizable leader. I suggest you gather information about the Crimean Nogais and the Budzhak Horde. in the 19th and 20th centuries. Some of the Crimean, Kazan and Nogai peoples migrated to Anatolia and settled.

Many of tribes from Small Zhuz originated from Nogai people. Even they have separate tribe called Nogai in Kazakh people. Nowadays Nogai language from Russia is 99% same with Kazakh

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

This is true. But paradoxes united the uncombinable cultures of East Asia into one culture. For example, Solon, where the highly developed Daurs, whose ancestors the Khitans created the Liao Empire, are presented as Tungus, who were hunters, fishermen and reindeer herders.
It's like combining the Swedes and the Saami into one culture - Scandinavian.
The Nogais were not Kazakhs, and the Siberian Tatars were not Kazakhs either. The name Kazakh appeared only in 1465. It would probably be better to call their culture Kypchak (or in Western European - Cuman) culture.
The Turkic language - yes, it was the same for the Oghuz and for the Kypchaks. Separate languages other than the common Turkic language are only the Chuvash and Yakut languages.

Yes I agree with Kipchak name. But Uzbeks and Turkmens are not Kipchaks (but uzbek has kipchak dialect also). Paradox combined different cultures for good gameplay. But for Kazakh culture is better to restore Golden Horde and it is also better to be in Kipchak or Tatar cultural union. Because restore of Yuan dynasty is not referred for Kazakhs by history. And also by history kipchaks and another tribes which are nowadays in Kazakh nation tried to expand westward into Russian and Pontic steppe region. And had more contact with Russian principalities.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Turan Union

I have a difficult time taking things seriously when we're applying modern day concepts of nationalism and ethnic identity on history

nevertheless I do agree with some parts, though for different reasons.

Generally speaking people were more divided by factors such as religion and way of life than by language in these times. Also historical legacies (that are relevant) are important.

I been advocating for a split of the altaic group for some time, with a "turanian" group (just using the name for practicallity) encompassing Uzbek, Tajik, Pashtun and Uyghur.
the ancestors of modern uzbeks, the settled türks of transoxiana (also called sart) were a sedentary population living intermingled with tajiks, forming a cultural bund, when nomadic kipchaks invaded they were seen as strangers and barbarians by türks and tajiks alike, and eventually the invading kipchaks would mostly assimilate to settled culture and again recreate the settle/nomadic divide which has existed in central asia since the beginning of recorded history.

I think the Uzbek tag should be renamed Kipchak, and the kazakh culture also e renamed kipchak, aswell as being moved to tatar group. Probably also move kirghiz to this culture group

Forming bukhara would flip kipchak culture to uzbek and rename the remaining kipchak provinces to kazakh and give kazakh cores to all kazakh provinces (but not loose them as that'd make it so no one form bukhara)

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

I have a difficult time taking things seriously when we're applying modern day concepts of nationalism and ethnic identity on history

nevertheless I do agree with some parts, though for different reasons.

Generally speaking people were more divided by factors such as religion and way of life than by language in these times. Also historical legacies (that are relevant) are important.

I been advocating for a split of the altaic group for some time, with a "turanian" group (just using the name for practicallity) encompassing Uzbek, Tajik, Pashtun and Uyghur.
the ancestors of modern uzbeks, the settled türks of transoxiana (also called sart) were a sedentary population living intermingled with tajiks, forming a cultural bund, when nomadic kipchaks invaded they were seen as strangers and barbarians by türks and tajiks alike, and eventually the invading kipchaks would mostly assimilate to settled culture and again recreate the settle/nomadic divide which has existed in central asia since the beginning of recorded history.

I think the Uzbek tag should be renamed Kipchak, and the kazakh culture also e renamed kipchak, aswell as being moved to tatar group. Probably also move kirghiz to this culture group

Forming bukhara would flip kipchak culture to uzbek and rename the remaining kipchak provinces to kazakh and give kazakh cores to all kazakh provinces (but not loose them as that'd make it so no one form bukhara)

I partly agree, too. It was in the 15th century that these two nations came into being. In general, the names Uzbek and Nogai are the names of the Golden Horde rulers and leaders. And the tribes that followed them were called by their names. In Kazakh and Uzbek sources, the Khanate of Uzbeks in the game is called the Khanate of Abulkhair. And the tribes that inhabited this country were called the nomadic Uzbeks (the word Uzbek translates as "self-master"). Later, the tribes, dissatisfied with the policy of Abulkhair, created a new khanate and called themselves Uzbek-Kazakhs (the word kazakh translates as free, independent). And the remaining tribes conquered the Transoxiana, intermingled with the Sarts, and gave them their language and the name Uzbek. And the Uzbek-Kazakhs then simply called themselves Kazakhs.

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

I have a difficult time taking things seriously when we're applying modern day concepts of nationalism and ethnic identity on history

nevertheless I do agree with some parts, though for different reasons.

Generally speaking people were more divided by factors such as religion and way of life than by language in these times. Also historical legacies (that are relevant) are important.

I been advocating for a split of the altaic group for some time, with a "turanian" group (just using the name for practicallity) encompassing Uzbek, Tajik, Pashtun and Uyghur.
the ancestors of modern uzbeks, the settled türks of transoxiana (also called sart) were a sedentary population living intermingled with tajiks, forming a cultural bund, when nomadic kipchaks invaded they were seen as strangers and barbarians by türks and tajiks alike, and eventually the invading kipchaks would mostly assimilate to settled culture and again recreate the settle/nomadic divide which has existed in central asia since the beginning of recorded history.

I think the Uzbek tag should be renamed Kipchak, and the kazakh culture also e renamed kipchak, aswell as being moved to tatar group. Probably also move kirghiz to this culture group

Forming bukhara would flip kipchak culture to uzbek and rename the remaining kipchak provinces to kazakh and give kazakh cores to all kazakh provinces (but not loose them as that'd make it so no one form bukhara)

So in the game the Mongols and Oirat tried to restore the former Yuan Empire. And the Kazakhs must create the Golden Horde. Because the Yuan culture, although nomadic, but closer to Confucianism and Buddhism. And in the Golden Horde during the rule of Uzbek Khan, Islam became the state religion. So I think Kazakhs should be in a different cultural group, with the ability to rebuild the Golden Horde.

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

I have a difficult time taking things seriously when we're applying modern day concepts of nationalism and ethnic identity on history

nevertheless I do agree with some parts, though for different reasons.

Generally speaking people were more divided by factors such as religion and way of life than by language in these times. Also historical legacies (that are relevant) are important.

I been advocating for a split of the altaic group for some time, with a "turanian" group (just using the name for practicallity) encompassing Uzbek, Tajik, Pashtun and Uyghur.
the ancestors of modern uzbeks, the settled türks of transoxiana (also called sart) were a sedentary population living intermingled with tajiks, forming a cultural bund, when nomadic kipchaks invaded they were seen as strangers and barbarians by türks and tajiks alike, and eventually the invading kipchaks would mostly assimilate to settled culture and again recreate the settle/nomadic divide which has existed in central asia since the beginning of recorded history.

I think the Uzbek tag should be renamed Kipchak, and the kazakh culture also e renamed kipchak, aswell as being moved to tatar group. Probably also move kirghiz to this culture group

Forming bukhara would flip kipchak culture to uzbek and rename the remaining kipchak provinces to kazakh and give kazakh cores to all kazakh provinces (but not loose them as that'd make it so no one form bukhara)

And I don't think there's any nationalism going on here. Because I as a player want quality development of the region. Because playing for the Kazakhs the game becomes boring and with big bugs. Because the mission tree is for the creation of the golden horde, but there is no decision to restore the golden horde. But there is exist decision for restoration of the Yuan, but it is also impossible because the Kazakhs can not become emperor of China, there is no such casus belli. And also the Tatar culture is not accepted in the Kazakh Khanate, in connection with this very many rebellions occur in the game. And in the end of the game Kazakhs are conquered by their neighbors. Although in history, the Kazakhs are the only last existing nomadic khanate. And it was not conquered, but they themselves after the destruction of the Dzungars, fearing the Chinese, asked for a protectorate of Russia.

 

[currylambchop]

And I don't think there's any nationalism going on here. Because I as a player want quality development of the region. Because playing for the Kazakhs the game becomes boring and with big bugs. Because the mission tree is for the creation of the golden horde, but there is no decision to restore the golden horde. But there is exist decision for restoration of the Yuan, but it is also impossible because the Kazakhs can not become emperor of China, there is no such casus belli. And also the Tatar culture is not accepted in the Kazakh Khanate, in connection with this very many rebellions occur in the game. And in the end of the game Kazakhs are conquered by their neighbors. Although in history, the Kazakhs are the only last existing nomadic khanate. And it was not conquered, but they themselves after the destruction of the Dzungars, fearing the Chinese, asked for a protectorate of Russia.

You can reform Yuan by destroying the mandate.

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

You can reform Yuan by destroying the mandate.

For reforming Yuan you must be a emperor of china. It is no casus belli for takin of mandate for sunni nations. And Yuan dynasty historical is mongolian, not kazakh. Kazakh people were in Golden horde.

As you see Yuan dynasty territory. Kazakhs are so far away.

Kazakh khans are descendants of Juchi, first son of Genghis Khan. Yuan dynasty is descendants of Toluy, last son of gengis khan. So after Juchids assimilated among turkic tribes, accepted islam.

 

[currylambchop]

For reforming Yuan you must be a emperor of china.

That's incorrect. If you full annex the emperor of China without taking the mandate, you can form Yuan without being emperor of china.

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

That's incorrect. If you full annex the emperor of China without taking the mandate, you can form Yuan without being emperor of china.

It's not historical anyway. There is no decision for the restore of the golden horde. Although the mission tree is Tatar. Historically, the Kazakhs were part of the Golden Horde.

 

[Jihem]

As already said before about the Uzbek-Bukhara tag, Paradox was a bit flippant and incomplete initially with the Mongol peoples, all lumped together indiscriminately under a "Tatar" tag despite the significant differences between them. It would be good to have this fixed before the end of EU IV, but will there be enough time ?

 

[Kazakh Khanate]

As already said before about the Uzbek-Bukhara tag, Paradox was a bit flippant and incomplete initially with the Mongol peoples, all lumped together indiscriminately under a "Tatar" tag despite the significant differences between them. It would be good to have this fixed before the end of EU IV, but will there be enough time ?

Central asian people are nomads but not of all them mongols. Kazakhs, Tatars before Genghis khan invasion were Kipchaks (Cumans). They speaks turkic dialects. Mongols are another people.

 

[Jihem]

Exactly, I should have said "peoples of the steppes" or "Turkish-Mongols"

 

[Omogoy]

I have a difficult time taking things seriously when we're applying modern day concepts of nationalism and ethnic identity on history

nevertheless I do agree with some parts, though for different reasons.

Generally speaking people were more divided by factors such as religion and way of life than by language in these times. Also historical legacies (that are relevant) are important.

I been advocating for a split of the altaic group for some time, with a "turanian" group (just using the name for practicallity) encompassing Uzbek, Tajik, Pashtun and Uyghur.
the ancestors of modern uzbeks, the settled türks of transoxiana (also called sart) were a sedentary population living intermingled with tajiks, forming a cultural bund, when nomadic kipchaks invaded they were seen as strangers and barbarians by türks and tajiks alike, and eventually the invading kipchaks would mostly assimilate to settled culture and again recreate the settle/nomadic divide which has existed in central asia since the beginning of recorded history.

I think the Uzbek tag should be renamed Kipchak, and the kazakh culture also e renamed kipchak, aswell as being moved to tatar group. Probably also move kirghiz to this culture group

Forming bukhara would flip kipchak culture to uzbek and rename the remaining kipchak provinces to kazakh and give kazakh cores to all kazakh provinces (but not loose them as that'd make it so no one form bukhara)

In Soviet times, they tried to create the ethnonym Sart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart, but it had a slightly offensive connotation.

Academician Bartold writes https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сарты: “The word Sart, which the nomads used with undisguised contempt for the settled population and which folk etymology explained as “saryk it” (yellow dog), is now out of use, now only Uzbek nationality is recognized as opposed to Kazakh, Turkmen and Tajik nationalities. He considered the Sarts to be a separate ethnic group of sedentary Turks, differing from Tajiks in language, and from nomadic Turks in their way of life.
According to the orientalist Alexander Semyonov, the Sarts are the name given to the entire settled population of Central Asia. This name is especially common among local Russians, used as an umbrella term for Uzbeks, Tajiks and other local peoples. Kazakhs, according to Semyonov, call their fellow tribesmen Sarts, who took up farming together with settled Tajiks and Uzbeks. The settled Uzbeks call the Turkic-speaking population of some places in Central Asia (Khiva, Ferghana and other cities) Sarts, in whose speech there are many Persian borrowings. Semyonov cites the words of an Uzbek he met, who called those who speak only one language Sarts