This is actually a suggstion from the HoI - Suggestions/Wishes/Ideas/tweaks forum.
I simply post it here with the original wording, so I apologize for the references to Hearts of Iron, and basic knowledge of HoI (or EU) and the combat system may be needed in order to understand what I mean.
I do however feel that it's a valid proposal for a combat system in Victoria (also). Unfortunately it will not make it into a patch for HoI, as the changes are too big.
As I haven't seen any details on the combat system for Victoria, I fear that it may simply be a copy n' paste from EU/EU2/HoI.
So here goes:
This suggestion could solve a couple of problems that has come up due the the province system in HoI.
People complain that the province system isn't flexible, others point out that this is a strategic game, and conquering a full province in one go is perfectly allright.
It's quite unrealistic that forces in adjecent provinces have to march for several days / hours in order to reach the frontline/enemy.
The latter has been made even worse with the loss of ORG when moving (which I, in principle, like).
Assumptions:
I'm not sure how the game engine exactly works when it comes to movement, but in the suggestion I assume that land units are consider based in the center of the provinces.
I also assume provinces has a size value used for movement, regardless of the direction the province is traversed in (some provinces are oblong, som square, some round'ish etc.)
This means movement/attack into another province is calculated as: ½ size value of "from"-province + ½ size value of "to"-province.
No matter how the system actually works, my suggestion should (with my knowledge of the game) still be valid with modifications
And know the suggestion:
The "Move" command when right clicking a unit to a province should be replaced by two new commands:
Move to reserve
Move to front
1. Movement:
1.1
"Move to reserve" should be considered "Move" as we know it today. The unit is considered to be somewhere in the center of the province.
1.2
"Move to front" should take a bit longer.
To symbolize both the greater distance travelled and the fact that the unit is considered to have moved all the way to the frontline and therefore be more subject to harrassing artillery etc.
1.2.1
Specifically when moving within the province (from "In reserve" posistion) to "At the front" (in the same province) movement should be:
½ size value of province ("from"-province if you like)
1.2.2
When moving from one adjecent province (from the "In reserve" posistion) to another movement should be:
½ size value of "from"-province + 1/1 size value of "to"-province.
1.2.3
When moving from one adjecent province (from the "At the front" posistion) to another movement should be:
0 (zero) size value of "from"-province + 1/1 size value of "to"-province.
1.3
In effect you have two lines (or circles actually ) of units in a province. And yes I realise that this would mean Luxembourgh would be able to cover 360 degrees with one DIV and that all men of that DIV would all be able to face the Germans, the Belgiums or the French depending on who attacks them.
Tough luck - no system i perfect
2. Combat:
2.1 Two enemy units both "In reserve" conduct combat like we know it today.
I.e. they travel: ½ size value of "from"-province + ½ size value of "to"-province.
2.2 Two enemy units both "At the front" will be able to engage in combat in 2 secs flat!
If the defender retreats he retreat all the way out of the province like normal (I don't know how retreats work, but with my system it should probably be: 1/1 size value of "to"-province + ½ size value of "retreat"-province).
The attacker moves on for ½ size value of "to"-province before that province is under his control.
2.3 Attacker is "At the front" and defender has both units "At the front" and "In reserve".
Combat is instant and (front)-defender looses and retreats to an adjacent province (like in 2.2).
Attacker moves ½ size value of "to"-province and engages the defenders "In reserve".
This second combat is conducted as we know it today.
3. Other effects
Suggestions off the top of my head:
3.1 ORG regain is faster when units are NOT deployed near the frontline. For instance:
- Unit is not adjacent to enemy held province: +5% ORG regain speed.
- Unit is adjacent to enemy province but "In reserve" ORG regain as today
- Unit is adjacent to enemy province and "At the front": 5% (or more ?) slower ORG regain.
3.2 Units attacked while being "In reserve" could receive a small (5% ?) effectiveness penalty, for not being totally ready / dug in etc.
Maybe only for the first couple of battles rounds (subject to testing) so that players are, after all, encouraged to maintain two lines of defence in the provinces. If for nothing else then in order to regain ORG faster!
3.3 Dig in bonus should accumulate faster for frontline troops (use what has already been prepared, and they are more "motivated". Dig in bonus should accumulate slower for the reserve units - and maybe they should even have a lower maximum dig in bonus?
4. To sum up
This would removed the rather inflexible "take or loose all of the province in one battle", and could mean that the battle for a province will last a bit longer, as reserves does not have to come all the way from the next province.
We would avoid the "ORG-draining long march to the frontline" which also seems rather unrealistic. But with a moving front it would still be the same as we know it today.
We do however get a new unrealistic situation "the Luxembourgh anomoly" where an army can be everywhere around the perimeter of a province - but that is after all restricted to surrounded provinces, and not unlike the situation we have today.
For movement purposes you could argue that the "At the front" units are half way on their way to ALL adjacent provinces (unrealistic). So maybe movement should be reduce a tad in order to avoid exploits, but as it goes both ways (the other side has the same benefit) it might not be a problem?
On the downside we get more micromanagement, but as a player you are not forces to use it - frontline troops can be just that - always "At the front", and reserves can be kept "At the front" one province back (and so "At the front" should probably be default movement order for land units).
Where this system really excels is with large provinces where you avoid ORG loss before combat (unless the sneaky defender retreated to the second line of defence, where the attacker then will have an ORG loss, and the defender will be somewhat less effective for a couple of combat rounds).
This system might mean that units "At the front" can stand down and go into reserve in zero time (like cancelling movement) but that's not really a problem.
5. But is it possible?
I think yes - but what do I know
But somehow it isn't that different from the EU-system with the battlefield and city sieges! In principle it's the same, so I hope the game engine is able to cope with engaged (frontline) and reserve (garrision) troops in the same province.
The question is also if the engine can cope with units being "At the front" actually are able to move in any direction and out of the province in zero time? Or if the move order (out of the province) needs a corresponding destination province?
And to thoose of you who got to the bottom of this post:
Thank you for your coorporation
I simply post it here with the original wording, so I apologize for the references to Hearts of Iron, and basic knowledge of HoI (or EU) and the combat system may be needed in order to understand what I mean.
I do however feel that it's a valid proposal for a combat system in Victoria (also). Unfortunately it will not make it into a patch for HoI, as the changes are too big.
As I haven't seen any details on the combat system for Victoria, I fear that it may simply be a copy n' paste from EU/EU2/HoI.
So here goes:
This suggestion could solve a couple of problems that has come up due the the province system in HoI.
People complain that the province system isn't flexible, others point out that this is a strategic game, and conquering a full province in one go is perfectly allright.
It's quite unrealistic that forces in adjecent provinces have to march for several days / hours in order to reach the frontline/enemy.
The latter has been made even worse with the loss of ORG when moving (which I, in principle, like).
Assumptions:
I'm not sure how the game engine exactly works when it comes to movement, but in the suggestion I assume that land units are consider based in the center of the provinces.
I also assume provinces has a size value used for movement, regardless of the direction the province is traversed in (some provinces are oblong, som square, some round'ish etc.)
This means movement/attack into another province is calculated as: ½ size value of "from"-province + ½ size value of "to"-province.
No matter how the system actually works, my suggestion should (with my knowledge of the game) still be valid with modifications
And know the suggestion:
The "Move" command when right clicking a unit to a province should be replaced by two new commands:
Move to reserve
Move to front
1. Movement:
1.1
"Move to reserve" should be considered "Move" as we know it today. The unit is considered to be somewhere in the center of the province.
1.2
"Move to front" should take a bit longer.
To symbolize both the greater distance travelled and the fact that the unit is considered to have moved all the way to the frontline and therefore be more subject to harrassing artillery etc.
1.2.1
Specifically when moving within the province (from "In reserve" posistion) to "At the front" (in the same province) movement should be:
½ size value of province ("from"-province if you like)
1.2.2
When moving from one adjecent province (from the "In reserve" posistion) to another movement should be:
½ size value of "from"-province + 1/1 size value of "to"-province.
1.2.3
When moving from one adjecent province (from the "At the front" posistion) to another movement should be:
0 (zero) size value of "from"-province + 1/1 size value of "to"-province.
1.3
In effect you have two lines (or circles actually
) of units in a province. And yes I realise that this would mean Luxembourgh would be able to cover 360 degrees with one DIV and that all men of that DIV would all be able to face the Germans, the Belgiums or the French depending on who attacks them.Tough luck - no system i perfect
2. Combat:
2.1 Two enemy units both "In reserve" conduct combat like we know it today.
I.e. they travel: ½ size value of "from"-province + ½ size value of "to"-province.
2.2 Two enemy units both "At the front" will be able to engage in combat in 2 secs flat!
If the defender retreats he retreat all the way out of the province like normal (I don't know how retreats work, but with my system it should probably be: 1/1 size value of "to"-province + ½ size value of "retreat"-province).
The attacker moves on for ½ size value of "to"-province before that province is under his control.
2.3 Attacker is "At the front" and defender has both units "At the front" and "In reserve".
Combat is instant and (front)-defender looses and retreats to an adjacent province (like in 2.2).
Attacker moves ½ size value of "to"-province and engages the defenders "In reserve".
This second combat is conducted as we know it today.
3. Other effects
Suggestions off the top of my head:
3.1 ORG regain is faster when units are NOT deployed near the frontline. For instance:
- Unit is not adjacent to enemy held province: +5% ORG regain speed.
- Unit is adjacent to enemy province but "In reserve" ORG regain as today
- Unit is adjacent to enemy province and "At the front": 5% (or more ?) slower ORG regain.
3.2 Units attacked while being "In reserve" could receive a small (5% ?) effectiveness penalty, for not being totally ready / dug in etc.
Maybe only for the first couple of battles rounds (subject to testing) so that players are, after all, encouraged to maintain two lines of defence in the provinces. If for nothing else then in order to regain ORG faster!
3.3 Dig in bonus should accumulate faster for frontline troops (use what has already been prepared, and they are more "motivated". Dig in bonus should accumulate slower for the reserve units - and maybe they should even have a lower maximum dig in bonus?
4. To sum up
This would removed the rather inflexible "take or loose all of the province in one battle", and could mean that the battle for a province will last a bit longer, as reserves does not have to come all the way from the next province.
We would avoid the "ORG-draining long march to the frontline" which also seems rather unrealistic. But with a moving front it would still be the same as we know it today.
We do however get a new unrealistic situation "the Luxembourgh anomoly" where an army can be everywhere around the perimeter of a province - but that is after all restricted to surrounded provinces, and not unlike the situation we have today.
For movement purposes you could argue that the "At the front" units are half way on their way to ALL adjacent provinces (unrealistic). So maybe movement should be reduce a tad in order to avoid exploits, but as it goes both ways (the other side has the same benefit) it might not be a problem?
On the downside we get more micromanagement, but as a player you are not forces to use it - frontline troops can be just that - always "At the front", and reserves can be kept "At the front" one province back (and so "At the front" should probably be default movement order for land units).
Where this system really excels is with large provinces where you avoid ORG loss before combat (unless the sneaky defender retreated to the second line of defence, where the attacker then will have an ORG loss, and the defender will be somewhat less effective for a couple of combat rounds).
This system might mean that units "At the front" can stand down and go into reserve in zero time (like cancelling movement) but that's not really a problem.
5. But is it possible?
I think yes - but what do I know
But somehow it isn't that different from the EU-system with the battlefield and city sieges! In principle it's the same, so I hope the game engine is able to cope with engaged (frontline) and reserve (garrision) troops in the same province.
The question is also if the engine can cope with units being "At the front" actually are able to move in any direction and out of the province in zero time? Or if the move order (out of the province) needs a corresponding destination province?
And to thoose of you who got to the bottom of this post:
Thank you for your coorporation
